Bills Working Out Kouandjio at Guard

[Deranged Rhino]

probably because he was drafted as a tackle, and not having him practice at tackle pretty much gets rid of any reasonable chance that he could succeed there in the near future.

 

I don't think it works that way... but that could very well have been St. Doug's logic. If so, it just adds to the mistakes he's made in his deployment of personnel.

[NoSaint]

 

 

I don't think it works that way... but that could very well have been St. Doug's logic. If so, it just adds to the mistakes he's made in his deployment of personnel.

 

Yup. Plenty of tackles start at guard and kick outside.

Edited October 17, 2014 by NoSaint

[klos63]

I don't think it works that way... but that could very well have been St. Doug's logic. If so, it just adds to the mistakes he's made in his deployment of personnel

since you refer to him as st. doug, sarcastically I'm sure, my guess is it wouldn't have mattered how he handled kujo, unless he played well, you would criticize. Just curious, what other mistakes of 'deployment of personnel' do you refer to. If you say Lee Smith, I will agree with you.

[PlayoffsPlease]

since you refer to him as st. doug, sarcastically I'm sure, my guess is it wouldn't have mattered how he handled kujo, unless he played well, you would criticize. Just curious, what other mistakes of 'deployment of personnel' do you refer to. If you say Lee Smith, I will agree with you.

 

You realize the Marrone refers to himself as St. Doug, because he said it will take a miracle to turn the Bills into a playoff team.

 

I can't speak for the other poster, but among other things, it seems as though CJ Spiller is misused, Sammy Watkins appears to be misused. Mike Williams seems to be not used, which is a version of misused. The flip side of misuing Spiller, is not using Dixon of jackson on the interior runs. Playing a tacke at guard (pears) who seems much worse than a guard (urbik) who is on the roster is wierd too. That is just some of the things that appear at odds with logic.

[Deranged Rhino]

since you refer to him as st. doug, sarcastically I'm sure, my guess is it wouldn't have mattered how he handled kujo, unless he played well, you would criticize. Just curious, what other mistakes of 'deployment of personnel' do you refer to. If you say Lee Smith, I will agree with you.

 

That's not true, I haven't soured on St. Doug quite yet and have been one of his defenders around here -- but the mistakes are mounting. I just find the nickname hilarious, especially because he didn't deny it. That said, he has had a string of head scratchers in regards to personnel. Lee Smith is an excellent example of a guy who should have a restraining order filed against him to bar him from the field. The guy hurts more than he helps. The worst, and most egregious though is the doomed-to-fail-before-it-began experiment of trying to make Pears a guard. Pears was a below average RT who's biggest weaknesses are also some of the most important qualities a guard needs. That move, above all else so far, has sunk this offense and doomed it to mediocrity at best.

 

If Smith and Pears aren't enough, there's also the increasingly alarming neglect of Watkins. I get not running him on screens and reverses when the kid's got hurt ribs, but there was no excuse for it last Sunday. None. Worse, it looked as if Orton was instructed not even to include Watkins in his progressions in the first half. That's a criminal misuse of personnel and it might fall on Hackett's shoulders, but ultimately that's on St. Doug.

[klos63]

You realize the Marrone refers to himself as St. Doug, because he said it will take a miracle to turn the Bills into a playoff team.

 

I can't speak for the other poster, but among other things, it seems as though CJ Spiller is misused, Sammy Watkins appears to be misused. Mike Williams seems to be not used, which is a version of misused. The flip side of misuing Spiller, is not using Dixon of jackson on the interior runs. Playing a tacke at guard (pears) who seems much worse than a guard (urbik) who is on the roster is wierd too. That is just some of the things that appear at odds with logic.

Spiller is not a good RB in my opinion, so using him at all might be considered misuse. Watkins, throw to him more, yeah, ok, but then don't ask for Williams to get used much more, but I think with Orton, more than Manuel, you will see more passing overall. I don't get the criticism of interior runs vs 'exterior' runs - but Dixon and Jackson do often run between the tackles, they also run outside occasionally. Those are the only 2 choices for running the ball. It comes down to blocking. Pears stinks, my guess is Urbik is worse... do you have a better explanation?

[The Big Cat]

 

Pears is NOT a guard. He is a brute strength RT (and not the worst). He simply doesn't have the agility to play LT nor the burst to play OG. It ain't happening.

 

Kujo was the 4th best blocker on the Tide. The line was stacked with stars. He is not exceptionally strong. He's fairly agile, but there seems to be an injury problem. Either way, he was a stupid selection considering that we have Glenn at LT. And I strongly sense that he lacks the strength to be a good guard, let alone RT.

 

So who do we blame for this mess? Marrone for not starting Urbik? Whaley for wasting a pick on a damaged Kujo? No and No.

 

Imo Brandon should be loaded into a cannon and fired into Lake Erie. He is a sophisticated, modern day circus barker. It was HE who brought in his Syracuse cronies and a literal nobody to be GM.

 

If Brandon is fired (fingers crossed) and a team picks him up, they will make a profit and lose football games. Brandon is a cancer and a disaster.

 

What are you suggesting? Can't just hang it on Brandon without suggesting what he should/could have done.

[klos63]

That's not true, I haven't soured on St. Doug quite yet and have been one of his defenders around here -- but the mistakes are mounting. I just find the nickname hilarious, especially because he didn't deny it. That said, he has had a string of head scratchers in regards to personnel. Lee Smith is an excellent example of a guy who should have a restraining order filed against him to bar him from the field. The guy hurts more than he helps. The worst, and most egregious though is the doomed-to-fail-before-it-began experiment of trying to make Pears a guard. Pears was a below average RT who's biggest weaknesses are also some of the most important qualities a guard needs. That move, above all else so far, has sunk this offense and doomed it to mediocrity at best.

 

If Smith and Pears aren't enough, there's also the increasingly alarming neglect of Watkins. I get not running him on screens and reverses when the kid's got hurt ribs, but there was no excuse for it last Sunday. None. Worse, it looked as if Orton was instructed not even to include Watkins in his progressions in the first half. That's a criminal misuse of personnel and it might fall on Hackett's shoulders, but ultimately that's on St. Doug.

Like I said , I agree that Lee Smith is awful. Pears stinks, however - you don't have many options with your roster. This falls on Whaley for not having enough quality players in those positions.

Regarding Watkins, I think he will get used more often as Orton plays more, but it all comes down to the line, You really can't have a cohesive unit with such crappy line. It all starts and ends there. Besides Pears, Henderson isn't very good, Richardson isn't very good and Wood isn't very good.

[NoSaint]

Spiller is not a good RB in my opinion, so using him at all might be considered misuse. Watkins, throw to him more, yeah, ok, but then don't ask for Williams to get used much more, but I think with Orton, more than Manuel, you will see more passing overall. I don't get the criticism of interior runs vs 'exterior' runs - but Dixon and Jackson do often run between the tackles, they also run outside occasionally. Those are the only 2 choices for running the ball. It comes down to blocking. Pears stinks, my guess is Urbik is worse... do you have a better explanation?

 

I think his alternative is that Marrone has a lack of offensive vision which leads to poor scheming and a lack of talent development.

 

Either that or your more simple idea that or everyone else in the offense and in the front office has disappointed.

[Deranged Rhino]

Like I said , I agree that Lee Smith is awful. Pears stinks, however - you don't have many options with your roster. This falls on Whaley for not having enough quality players in those positions.

 

So the head coach, a former offensive lineman and offensive coordinator, had absolutely zero input on the make-up of his offensive line? That's just a little ridiculous to believe, isn't it? With regards to Pears, you cannot say "you don't have many options with your roster" when Marrone has made it clear that Pears is the unquestioned, and ONLY option at RG. Despite week after week of game film (which I sadly watch each week) showing Pears is in fact a liability, Marrone has yet to consider a change. Ubrik, who I don't think is all that great, is a better option at guard and has a much, much better resume -- even this pre-season -- on film than Pears. Yet, Marrone believes Ubrik is more valuable as a backup center than a starting guard.

 

That's coaching scared at best, and criminal mismanagement of personnel at worst.

 

Regarding Watkins, I think he will get used more often as Orton plays more, but it all comes down to the line, You really can't have a cohesive unit with such crappy line. It all starts and ends there. Besides Pears, Henderson isn't very good, Richardson isn't very good and Wood isn't very good.

 

That's also not true. QB doesn't matter when you're running a reverse, or even a bubble screen. It's the complete absence of these plays that's baffling, they haven't even attempted them. It seems you're set on giving the coaching a pass for the product on the field because you disagree with the front office decisions -- that's letting the coaches off the hook. Regardless of the roster, it's the coach's job to get the most wins from the pieces he's given. Not getting the ball to the most explosive playmaker on your roster, by any means necessary regardless of the deficiencies on the line or at QB, is not something you can pin on Whaley.

[klos63]

I think his alternative is that Marrone has a lack of offensive vision which leads to poor scheming and a lack of talent development.

 

Either that or your more simple idea that or everyone else in the offense and in the front office has disappointed.

might be a combination of that. But I go by the logic, it's the GM's job to field a quality team with players that fit the team philosophy. It's the coaches job to get the most out of that team. I don't believe Marrone has been given all the tools offensively. He has defensively, and the defense is playing quite well. Would you give him any credit for that? He's been given good quality on special teams and they are playing well. Not enough on offense.

[Deranged Rhino]

might be a combination of that. But I go by the logic, it's the GM's job to field a quality team with players that fit the team philosophy. It's the coaches job to get the most out of that team. I don't believe Marrone has been given all the tools offensively. He has defensively, and the defense is playing quite well. Would you give him any credit for that? He's been given good quality on special teams and they are playing well. Not enough on offense.

 

A first round QB, WR, 2nd round WR, a high 3rd round WR, two of the best RBs in the league -- supplemented by two quality backups, trading for a hometown WR with first round talent, plus a second round OT, a fifth round OG... most of which St. Doug at least had some say on bringing in... all that isn't giving him enough quality?!

 

Edited October 17, 2014 by GreggyT

[klos63]

So the head coach, a former offensive lineman and offensive coordinator, had absolutely zero input on the make-up of his offensive line? That's just a little ridiculous to believe, isn't it? With regards to Pears, you cannot say "you don't have many options with your roster" when Marrone has made it clear that Pears is the unquestioned, and ONLY option at RG. Despite week after week of game film (which I sadly watch each week) showing Pears is in fact a liability, Marrone has yet to consider a change. Ubrik, who I don't think is all that great, is a better option at guard and has a much, much better resume -- even this pre-season -- on film than Pears. Yet, Marrone believes Ubrik is more valuable as a backup center than a starting guard.

 

That's coaching scared at best, and criminal mismanagement of personnel at worst.

 

 

 

That's also not true. QB doesn't matter when you're running a reverse, or even a bubble screen. It's the complete absence of these plays that's baffling, they haven't even attempted them. It seems you're set on giving the coaching a pass for the product on the field because you disagree with the front office decisions -- that's letting the coaches off the hook. Regardless of the roster, it's the coach's job to get the most wins from the pieces he's given. Not getting the ball to the most explosive playmaker on your roster, by any means necessary regardless of the deficiencies on the line or at QB, is not something you can pin on Whaley.

Really? So the quality of the roster doesn't matter? Listen, I'm not sold on Marrone either, but I can't ignore 4 weak points on the line. Just watch the games, the line kills us. I think it's that simple.

[Deranged Rhino]

Really? So the quality of the roster doesn't matter? Listen, I'm not sold on Marrone either, but I can't ignore 4 weak points on the line. Just watch the games, the line kills us. I think it's that simple.

 

I didn't say it didn't matter, I said at some point when you're judging a coach you have to let that go. Marrone has had this roster for two years, he felt comfortable with Pears at guard over going after a FA in camp despite glaring evidence to the contrary. He said as much in several interviews during camp.

[Alabama]

I always liked Cyrus at Alabama, and though he is a MONSTER and has real talent, he is capable of totally loafing his way through a big play at any time. Urbik continues to get no love @ OBD but the dude is solid. He was a huge factor in Spiller's "breakout" year in 2012.

[NoSaint]

might be a combination of that. But I go by the logic, it's the GM's job to field a quality team with players that fit the team philosophy. It's the coaches job to get the most out of that team. I don't believe Marrone has been given all the tools offensively. He has defensively, and the defense is playing quite well. Would you give him any credit for that? He's been given good quality on special teams and they are playing well. Not enough on offense.

 

I would say our offensive output has regressed despite increases in skill. Explain our offensive scheme in 2-3 sentences. Try. Good ones normally have a defined goal and means of achieving it.

 

We have used 2 firsts a second a third a sixth and a big contract on wrs. Our #1 target Sunday? 7-11.

 

We benched our first round qb for a guy that's been on the team a month after cutting a vet last offseason to protect Jeff tuel.

 

We benched one wr for 3 TE sets with Gregg and lee smith and a guy we were content letting walk if anyone wanted to offer him a contract

 

We have a guard that's a proven starter on the bench to back up center while starting the worst graded guard in the league.

 

We run our dynamic speed back into the back of those guards half of his carries

 

We run a read option with no actual options

 

We keep a back we traded for inactive because of special teams.

 

We have the fastest team in the league and can't create space.

 

And when our defense lets the patriots drive in the fourth to put us away with our top pass rushers (1 of which is our best player) on the bench for normal rest/rotations I'm not sure the defense is immune from the boneheadedness

 

 

 

I didn't say it didn't matter, I said at some point when you're judging a coach you have to let that go. Marrone has had this roster for two years, he felt comfortable with Pears at guard over going after a FA in camp despite glaring evidence to the contrary. He said as much in several interviews during camp.

 

And refuses to do anything to hide or help pears too!

Edited October 17, 2014 by NoSaint

[klos63]

A first round QB, WR, 2nd round WR, a high 3rd round WR, two of the best RBs in the league -- supplemented by two quality backups, trading for a hometown WR with first round talent, plus a second round OT, a fifth round OG... most of which St. Doug at least had some say on bringing in... all that isn't giving him enough quality?!

 

No it's not. Kujo was absolutely horrible, Richardson rated one of the worst guards in the league - they are rookies and may develop, but they obviously aren't ready. Manuel isn't ready and by most wasn't regarded as a top tier QB prospect. Every team drafts players in the first round, second round, third.... doesn't mean they are all good picks. We have good skill at WR, I will agree with you there. Limited skill at TE, we do not have 2 of the best RB in the league. The line stinks - is it poor drafting, poor coaching or just not enough time yet to judge Kujo, Richardson and Henderson - probably the latter, but it's still an issue.

[Deranged Rhino]

No it's not. Kujo was absolutely horrible, Richardson rated one of the worst guards in the league - they are rookies and may develop, but they obviously aren't ready. Manuel isn't ready and by most wasn't regarded as a top tier QB prospect. Every team drafts players in the first round, second round, third.... doesn't mean they are all good picks. We have good skill at WR, I will agree with you there. Limited skill at TE, we do not have 2 of the best RB in the league. The line stinks - is it poor drafting, poor coaching or just not enough time yet to judge Kujo, Richardson and Henderson - probably the latter, but it's still an issue.

 

I do hear you, I do. But Marrone didn't just arrive, he's been consulted and had major influence on the shape of this roster. He has to by nature of his position and the management structure of the team the past two seasons. So if you're going to burn the front office for not giving Marrone the tools to win, you also have to save some fire for St. Doug who had a say in how this team was built.

 

The fact is, the team invested heavily in offense over the past few drafts and overall there has been a major talent infusion at nearly every position. The team is .500 in the division with a lot of winnable games on the horizon, I'm not calling for St. Doug to be fired. All I'm doing is holding him accountable for the personnel decisions he has made so far this year. Namely, deciding that Pears is the best answer at OG -- which has crippled the offense to a large degree because the man is literally a walking meat-sack who offers nothing of value to an offensive line, especially at guard.

 

But it's not the only questionable decision the coach has made this season. I'm just trying to call it as I see it.

[klos63]

I would say our offensive output has regressed despite increases in skill. Explain our offensive scheme in 2-3 sentences. Try. Good ones normally have a defined goal and means of achieving it.

 

We have used 2 firsts a second a third a sixth and a big contract on wrs. Our #1 target Sunday? 7-11.

 

We benched our first round qb for a guy that's been on the team a month after cutting a vet last offseason to protect Jeff tuel.

 

We benched one wr for 3 TE sets with Gregg and lee smith and a guy we were content letting walk if anyone wanted to offer him a contract

 

We have a guard that's a proven starter on the bench to back up center while starting the worst graded guard in the league.

 

We run our dynamic speed back into the back of those guards half of his carries

 

We run a read option with no actual options

 

We keep a back we traded for inactive because of special teams.

 

We have the fastest team in the league and can't create space.

 

And when our defense lets the patriots drive in the fourth to put us away with our top pass rushers (1 of which is our best player) on the bench for normal rest/rotations I'm not sure the defense is immune from the boneheadedness

 

 

 

And refuses to do anything to hide or help pears too!

I don't see how the fact that the line stinks isn't the main factor in anyones mind as to the problems with this offense. Get a good line and then judge the rest. Now you could make the argument that our play calling doesn't gel with our lines skills, but I doubt that right now. They really blow.

To some of your points.

I don't care who are #1 target is on a game by game basis, it's who is open, but I do think we are better served getting the ball to Watkins/ Woods.

We don't run the read option anymore - not with Orton

Spiller, sorry you can't just place him ' in space' he needs blocking just like any other back - he doesn't know how to follow any blocks - if there is a small hole that Jackson can hit, why can't Spiller?

I wouldn't mind seeing Bryce Brown given a shot - who do you sit or take carries away from? Or do we run more and pass less to Watkins/ Woods....

 

I think the desire of this teams offensive philosophy would be a running ball control team, low risk, low turnover type offense , but you need a good o-line , we have a horrible one.

 

I do hear you, I do. But Marrone didn't just arrive, he's been consulted and had major influence on the shape of this roster. He has to by nature of his position and the management structure of the team the past two seasons. So if you're going to burn the front office for not giving Marrone the tools to win, you also have to save some fire for St. Doug who had a say in how this team was built.

 

The fact is, the team invested heavily in offense over the past few drafts and overall there has been a major talent infusion at nearly every position. The team is .500 in the division with a lot of winnable games on the horizon, I'm not calling for St. Doug to be fired. All I'm doing is holding him accountable for the personnel decisions he has made so far this year. Namely, deciding that Pears is the best answer at OG -- which has crippled the offense to a large degree because the man is literally a walking meat-sack who offers nothing of value to an offensive line, especially at guard.

 

But it's not the only questionable decision the coach has made this season. I'm just trying to call it as I see it.

Someone, somewhere mentioned how Dallas has given Garrett a probably very fair amount of time to get the team as a playoff contender. Marrone is less than 1 1/2 years into his program. I know it's tough to be patient week to week, but to be fair to him, he may need more time to be fairly judged. We drafted 3 lineman this year, to expect much out of them as rookies is asking an awful lot. Patience sucks, but I hear it is a virtue.

[Deranged Rhino]

I don't see how the fact that the line stinks isn't the main factor in anyones mind as to the problems with this offense. Get a good line and then judge the rest.

 

This is the disconnect I'm having with your posts. Marrone's background should assure the team has at least a competent offensive line. One would assume the man knows how to assess talent at those positions considering his experience. One also has to assume that over the past two years during which Marrone has had time to address the line, he would have improved it.

 

And yet this is the line he has put out on the field:

 

A budding star at LT (who's being hung out to dry by sub par play to his right)

An injury prone, terrible FA signing at RG, backed up by a 5th round rookie (whom I actually think has a future but isn't ready yet)

Most underrated C in the game (ditto with the hung out to dry comment)

A below average, over the hill RT who you ask to convert to RG

A rookie RT who has been streaky at best

 

That's on Marrone at least a little bit, is it not?

Edited October 17, 2014 by GreggyT