Buffalo Barbarian Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) That's a very uninformed response. no it's not http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/statistics.htm Edited October 18, 2014 by Buffalo Barbarian
BillsFanNC Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 no it's not http://www.mercola.c.../statistics.htm Uggghh. That tripe doesn't even rise to the level of pseudoscience. Complete crap. I've been involved in influenza related research for a large part of my career, if you want to do your own influenza research you can't use sites like mercola.com. Use pubmed for crying out loud.
birdog1960 Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 Uggghh. That tripe doesn't even rise to the level of pseudoscience. Complete crap. I've been involved in influenza related research for a large part of my career, if you want to do your own influenza research you can't use sites like mercola.com. Use pubmed for crying out loud. you can fool some of the people all of the time… i never encountered this shyster before. seems he was on the dr oz show - now there's a surprise. here's a hint to barbarian: if an "expert" posts a copy of his medical license on his website http://www.mercola.com/forms/background.htm, he's probably not considered an expert by his colleagues. same for bragging about being a dept head at a largely unknown small hospital. at any rate, this is data cherry picking at it's worst. i don't know how this guy sleeps at night unless he really believe this crap. that would actually be worse.
ExiledInIllinois Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) Uggghh. That tripe doesn't even rise to the level of pseudoscience. Complete crap. I've been involved in influenza related research for a large part of my career, if you want to do your own influenza research you can't use sites like mercola.com. Use pubmed for crying out loud. Understandable. But somebody WILL get harmed. Kinda sucks when it affects you "taking one for the team." Should people be forced to act collectively? The harm is real for the unlucky few. Please don't misconstrue this as me being anti-vaccination. I am not. Hope that nobody ever has to use it, but people WILL. I am sure stuff like this turns people's worlds upside down: http://www.hrsa.gov/...tion/index.html Edited October 18, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois
birdog1960 Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 Understandable. But somebody WILL get harmed. Kinda sucks when it affects you "taking one for the team." Should people be forced to act collectively? The harm is real for the unlucky few. Please don't misconstrue this as me being anti-vaccination. I am not. Hope that nobody ever has to use it, but people WILL. I am sure stuff like this turns people's worlds upside down: http://www.hrsa.gov/...tion/index.html and a satellite might drop from the sky onto my house today. it's called risk/benefit analysis. the risks are extremely low. the benefits are very high. ever met anyone that had polio as a child? i've met plenty. the next generation won't. it's been almost completely, globally eradicated (except in the few backwater places where idiots actually fight against immunization).
Rubes Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 and a satellite might drop from the sky onto my house today. it's called risk/benefit analysis. the risks are extremely low. the benefits are very high. ever met anyone that had polio as a child? i've met plenty. the next generation won't. it's been almost completely, globally eradicated (except in the few backwater places where idiots actually fight against immunization). Precisely.
BillsFanM.D. Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 and a satellite might drop from the sky onto my house today. it's called risk/benefit analysis. the risks are extremely low. the benefits are very high. ever met anyone that had polio as a child? i've met plenty. the next generation won't. it's been almost completely, globally eradicated (except in the few backwater places where idiots actually fight against immunization). Precisely. I don't have the energy to fight this on here as 'we' do this every year in real time conversations. Carry on birdog.
DC Tom Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 and a satellite might drop from the sky onto my house today. it's called risk/benefit analysis. the risks are extremely low. the benefits are very high. ever met anyone that had polio as a child? i've met plenty. the next generation won't. it's been almost completely, globally eradicated (except in the few backwater places where idiots actually fight against immunization). It's the typical confusion between individual health care and public health. You don't get a vaccination to keep from getting sick as an individual, you get a vaccination to stop the spread of disease through a population. Vaccinations are a true public health tool, in that they provide a common, non-exclusive outcome regardless of consumption (i.e. everyone's free of vaccinated illnesses). Were I in charge, vaccinations would be mandatory and free, because that's exactly the type of public program the government should be funding.
Azalin Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 I don't think I've ever had the opportunity to agree with both birddog and Tom at the same time before, but I have a difficult time seeing how anyone with even a modicum of sensibility could see it any other way. while I think it's good for people to be concerned with exactly what it is that they're getting when they receive a vaccination, there's a degree of associated paranoia that appears to be being spread by a handful of celebrities and 'professionals' of questionable pedigree. my parents' generation were at a much greater risk of contracting life-threatening or crippling maladies that my own generation never had to worry about, due completely to the introduction of vaccines that we, as a class, would line up outside the school nurse's office to receive. flu shots are different. I went for years without receiving one, and I would only catch the seasonal flu once every 3 or 4 years or so. I only began getting them last year, so I can't say one way or another if I'm getting any benefit or not. the flu shot I received last weekend protects against 5 different strains of influenza, so I feel pretty good about my chances of not coming down with it this year. as we get older, we develop other health concerns....some from our lifestyles, some from genetics. I'm not as indestructible as I used to be, so it only seemed like good sense to get a flu shot. my friends that have children get sick all the damn time. one of their kids brings the latest bug du jour home from school, and it gets passed to everyone else in the house. they sometimes catch the same bug twice in the same 'cycle', because school children are constantly passing it back & forth. I believe (but am not certain) that both the flu and the common cold can be passed while the carrier isn't showing any symptoms yet, which makes it even more easy to catch. I'm usually the last person to say that I support new government-funded programs and mandates, but having people line up for free flu shots sounds like a good idea and a good investment to me.
Deranged Rhino Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 As a dude who walks around with an artificially compromised immune system, I appreciate all those who get their shots.
Azalin Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 As a dude who walks around with an artificially compromised immune system, I appreciate all those who get their shots. I'm right there with you.
ExiledInIllinois Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) and a satellite might drop from the sky onto my house today. it's called risk/benefit analysis. the risks are extremely low. the benefits are very high. ever met anyone that had polio as a child? i've met plenty. the next generation won't. it's been almost completely, globally eradicated (except in the few backwater places where idiots actually fight against immunization). Yes. You are right. I am a bit younger, I did know one person who had polio. They got off pretty easy with just athropy (sp) in one leg. NOW the only incidents of polio today in the US come from the vaccine... It will never truly be wiped out 100%. As few as they are, you will get cases from the vaccine. Again, I agree with you... BUT try telling somebody that after they have been harmed. It's an individual tragedy, collateral damage. You have to agree, emphasis is on to not think collectively and big nasty gubmint is bad! You will get me to fall in line, how are you going to get the others? Do you think parents today would have their children lined up like they did for the polio vaccine as they did during the 1950's. In some regard, we all ask too many questions and know too many answers. It's the typical confusion between individual health care and public health. You don't get a vaccination to keep from getting sick as an individual, you get a vaccination to stop the spread of disease through a population. Vaccinations are a true public health tool, in that they provide a common, non-exclusive outcome regardless of consumption (i.e. everyone's free of vaccinated illnesses). Were I in charge, vaccinations would be mandatory and free, because that's exactly the type of public program the government should be funding. Exactly. So true. How are you going to get people to stop thinking of their damn selves? But... Even in the military you have people washing out because they don't want to take a vaccine, like say anthrax. How do you propose in this day in age to enforce mandatory vaccinations? And yes, I am playing a lot of devil's advocate here. I don't think I've ever had the opportunity to agree with both birddog and Tom at the same time before, but I have a difficult time seeing how anyone with even a modicum of sensibility could see it any other way. while I think it's good for people to be concerned with exactly what it is that they're getting when they receive a vaccination, there's a degree of associated paranoia that appears to be being spread by a handful of celebrities and 'professionals' of questionable pedigree. my parents' generation were at a much greater risk of contracting life-threatening or crippling maladies that my own generation never had to worry about, due completely to the introduction of vaccines that we, as a class, would line up outside the school nurse's office to receive. flu shots are different. I went for years without receiving one, and I would only catch the seasonal flu once every 3 or 4 years or so. I only began getting them last year, so I can't say one way or another if I'm getting any benefit or not. the flu shot I received last weekend protects against 5 different strains of influenza, so I feel pretty good about my chances of not coming down with it this year. as we get older, we develop other health concerns....some from our lifestyles, some from genetics. I'm not as indestructible as I used to be, so it only seemed like good sense to get a flu shot. my friends that have children get sick all the damn time. one of their kids brings the latest bug du jour home from school, and it gets passed to everyone else in the house. they sometimes catch the same bug twice in the same 'cycle', because school children are constantly passing it back & forth. I believe (but am not certain) that both the flu and the common cold can be passed while the carrier isn't showing any symptoms yet, which makes it even more easy to catch. I'm usually the last person to say that I support new government-funded programs and mandates, but having people line up for free flu shots sounds like a good idea and a good investment to me. To comment on what you said... I agree, you make great points. But, how the hell are you going to get people to line up like they did in the 1950's? Even if it is free... A lot of flu shots are free they give out. Our culture simply works against it. Edited October 18, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois
Azalin Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 To comment on what you said... I agree, you make great points. But, how the hell are you going to get people to line up like they did in the 1950's? Even if it is free... A lot of flu shots are free they give out. Our culture simply works against it. you're right, you can't make people do it, and if I sounded like I believe people should actually be forced to be immunized, then I didn't mean to. I do support birddog's stand on taking preventive measures via inoculation, and despite my libertarian leanings, I see value in free flu shots for anyone who wants them.
Beerball Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 As a dude who walks around with an artificially compromised immune system, I appreciate all those who get their shots. I'm right there with you. Three's a crowd.
ExiledInIllinois Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 you're right, you can't make people do it, and if I sounded like I believe people should actually be forced to be immunized, then I didn't mean to. I do support birddog's stand on taking preventive measures via inoculation, and despite my libertarian leanings, I see value in free flu shots for anyone who wants them. Fair enough. I also stand by offering free shots, worthwhile investment. I just wonder if the drug companies see value in soley dealing with the gov't, not individuals and businesses. When it comes to making money, flu shots have to be one of the few areas in healthcare that's right side up. ?? And for the people who have the satellite fall from the sky and hit them? Take care of them for life?
DC Tom Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 Fair enough. I also stand by offering free shots, worthwhile investment. I just wonder if the drug companies see value in soley dealing with the gov't, not individuals and businesses. When it comes to making money, flu shots have to be one of the few areas in healthcare that's right side up. ?? And for the people who have the satellite fall from the sky and hit them? Take care of them for life? The vaccination market is a mess, because there's very limited upside and virtually unlimited downside. You might think it's because of dolts like Jenny McCarthy...but it actually goes back to swine flu and Guillainn-Barre in '76-77. Even a hypothetical Ebola vaccine would be a circus here. If they had one available right now, I'd be anticipating James Sokolove running one of his obnoxious "Injured? Class action! Free money!" commercials on it.
ExiledInIllinois Posted October 19, 2014 Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) Even a hypothetical Ebola vaccine would be a circus here. That is what I was milling over. Could we ever handle an epidemic now anywhere near the way we handled polio? Of course the answer is: No. Without even digging through the facts, let's not even go there with polio. Ebola would be a total circus like you said. Who wants to be collateral damage? How do we get people to "buy in" and think collectively when its been hammered into their heads the last 30+ years that thinking collectively is bad. We have nobody to blame but ourselves. Everybody be just good little soldiers and do what you are told. Well, the trust has been thrown out the window. Edited October 19, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois
Jim in Anchorage Posted October 19, 2014 Posted October 19, 2014 It's the typical confusion between individual health care and public health. You don't get a vaccination to keep from getting sick as an individual, you get a vaccination to stop the spread of disease through a population. Vaccinations are a true public health tool, in that they provide a common, non-exclusive outcome regardless of consumption (i.e. everyone's free of vaccinated illnesses). Were I in charge, vaccinations would be mandatory and free, because that's exactly the type of public program the government should be funding. Thank God you're not in charge.
birdog1960 Posted October 19, 2014 Posted October 19, 2014 That is what I was milling over. Could we ever handle an epidemic now anywhere near the way we handled polio? Of course the answer is: No. Without even digging through the facts, let's not even go there with polio. Ebola would be a total circus like you said. Who wants to be collateral damage? How do we get people to "buy in" and think collectively when its been hammered into their heads the last 30+ years that thinking collectively is bad. We have nobody to blame but ourselves. Everybody be just good little soldiers and do what you are told. Well, the trust has been thrown out the window. sure we could. a good samaritan law like that in effect for cpr would do the trick and would be totally appropriate imo. mandatory vaccination is a no go. but we could certainly have the more intelligent pop culture icons working to help change opinions. find some handsome, mcdreamy, real life doc's that aren't dr oz as spokespeople as well.
DC Tom Posted October 19, 2014 Posted October 19, 2014 That is what I was milling over. Could we ever handle an epidemic now anywhere near the way we handled polio? Of course the answer is: No. Without even digging through the facts, let's not even go there with polio. Ebola would be a total circus like you said. Who wants to be collateral damage? We can't even handle measles the way we once handled measles. Measles was eliminated from the US 14 years ago. This year is seeing the worst epidemic of measles in the US since the mid-90s, by a wide margin.
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