NoSaint Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 If Bradford is signed it will probably be for more than Orton makes and likely as the presumptive starter. If that happens I can see Orton opting out and going elsewhere. If he has a good season he should be able to find some team who he can start for. If we could get them both on the roster at a reasonable sum I'd be fine with it. perhaps a fair statement, but im guessing any opt out has to happen BEFORE free agency. otherwise the team is giving him too much leeway to potentially screw them on a whim.
Captain Hindsight Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 I don't think the Bills can trade for a QB who was starting last season nor do I think they can sign one for big money without moving on from Orton. It is HIS option for the year. I don't do that for an oft-injured QB like Bradford. Now, if he is cut or if they want to pick up someone similar like Jake Locker for less than what Orton is going to make (plus maybe some incentives) then that's a different story. Fine. Great, in fact. I'm open to competition. Bring a guy in as a back up to Orton and let the chips fall. As for Manuel, I don't expect him to be on the team next season. Look for him to be traded. It is never going to be a healthy situation for him or the Bills with him on the team. Why? EJ is regarded to have incredible character. No way he is looking to cause a distraction. Very little downside to keep him on the roster I think that is what most people are aiming for. Having Orton and Bradford compete for the starting job, along with EJ. Does Orton have the ability to opt out of the contract? I dont know much about his contract details. I think his second year is a player option. Expect him to do the same as Matt Cassel. Opt out, get more money
BarleyNY Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Also, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see them keep EJ. What's the downside? Why? EJ is regarded to have incredible character. No way he is looking to cause a distraction. Very little downside to keep him on the roster I think his second year is a player option. Expect him to do the same as Matt Cassel. Opt out, get more money I've never heard of a situation where a QB was drafted in the first round, was named starting QB, failed, then was relegated to back up. Ever. It isn't a good situation for anyone. If a QB in his situation isn't capable of being the starter, then why keep him around? To groom? Does anyone here honestly think that all Manuel needs to turn into a quality NFL QB is a couple of years on the bench? I think I've seen enough. He will serve as nothing more than an easily replaceable backup who, if he is worth anything at all as an NFL player, will at least think he should be starting and will be a lightning rod for QB controversy. The best course of action is to get something for him and let him compete somewhere else. It's best for him. It's best for the Bills. Certainly sign a free agent like Bradford or Locker to compete with/back up Orton first. Pick up a rookie with some upside later in the draft or as a FA for third string. One important thing here - if Manuel stays you can forget another vet like Bradford. No way does a player like that come to Buffalo (or anywhere else) with that crowded of a QB roster. Not unless they are assured someone is on his way out. And, what? Manuel is such a high character guy he will sit third string like a champ? Don't know if Orton will opt out or not. If he's got whispers of bigger dollars elsewhere then he might opt out. That would change things obviously, but I think he stays here another year or two if he performs reasonably well. I just don't see him lighting it up and there being a big market for him.
thebandit27 Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 I've never heard of a situation where a QB was drafted in the first round, was named starting QB, failed, then was relegated to back up. Ever. It isn't a good situation for anyone. If a QB in his situation isn't capable of being the starter, then why keep him around? To groom? Does anyone here honestly think that all Manuel needs to turn into a quality NFL QB is a couple of years on the bench? I think I've seen enough. He will serve as nothing more than an easily replaceable backup who, if he is worth anything at all as an NFL player, will at least think he should be starting and will be a lightning rod for QB controversy. Off the top of my head: Joey Harrington Alex Smith Matt Leinart Mark Sanchez Brandon Weeden Why keep him around? He's talented, he works hard, he's inexpensive, and my guess is that his presence isn't exactly tearing the locker room apart.
Maddog69 Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Like many others have said, it depends on what he wants to be paid, how Orton finishes the rest of this year, if Orton comes back next year and how EJ looks if he gets back in. I would think we will have EJ, a veteran and a rookie here next year. Orton may be that Vet. If not, Bradford might be worth a look at the right price given his injury history.
Mr. WEO Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 I don't find it strange--he was never on the verge of becoming an UFA prior to this season. Ok...well, before he went out for his every-other-year season ending injury, was anyone really saying, even to themselves.."hey, wouldn't it be nice if Sam Bradford was available as a FA?" It's not believable anyone was coveting this guy at all.
BarleyNY Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Off the top of my head: Joey Harrington Alex Smith Matt Leinart Mark Sanchez Brandon Weeden Why keep him around? He's talented, he works hard, he's inexpensive, and my guess is that his presence isn't exactly tearing the locker room apart. Those are not good examples because some, like Weeden, only started due to injury to their replacement and then were traded or released. More importantly, none were quality starters for the teams that benched them. Smith did very short term duty as a decent QB in SF and I guess you could make a case for Harrington, but if that's the best that has ever happened I think my point stands. Had time to check into your examples: - Harrington was benched in 2005 for Garcia, then after Garcia sucked regained the job later that season. That was his last season in Detroit. - Alex Smith did indeed get benched and return to the starting role in SF and he was fairly successful at the very end of his tenure there. Still, the team quickly moved on from him even after his best seasons there. - Matt Leinart was benched for Kurt Warner and was his backup that season and the next. He never started another game for Arizona. - Mark Sanchez was only ever benched during one game while QBing the Jets. He never lost his starting job until they got rid of him although he had injuries that kept him out of games. - Brandon Weeden got benched for Hoyer and returned to the starting lineup only after Hoyer got injured. Weeden continued his poor play, got benched again in favor of Jason Campbell and then was cut at then end of the season. So Alex Smith is the only QB who was in the situation I described and had any success at all. And he wasn't even deemed worthy of remaining the QB there. Sorry, I checked. It just doesn't happen. Edited October 16, 2014 by BarleyNY
TheFunPolice Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 David Carr was around a long time as a backup
NoSaint Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Ok...well, before he went out for his every-other-year season ending injury, was anyone really saying, even to themselves.."hey, wouldn't it be nice if Sam Bradford was available as a FA?" It's not believable anyone was coveting this guy at all. well, i dont think its like people are dreaming of him fixing everything and their number 1 option ever.... its the best of an ugly bunch that will be lucky to see even 1 other guy with his talent in FA next year.
DallasBillsFan1 Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 My gut tells me "No Thanks" ... let's develop a QB organically ... draft and develop him. I say, keep drafting a QB every year or every other year until we find the right guy. Like many others have said, it depends on what he wants to be paid, how Orton finishes the rest of this year, if Orton comes back next year and how EJ looks if he gets back in. I would think we will have EJ, a veteran and a rookie here next year. Orton may be that Vet. If not, Bradford might be worth a look at the right price given his injury history. Orton has a 2 year deal so he WILL be in Buffalo next year... right?
Mango Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Buffalo has to be the only city/franchise content not trying to move on from Orton. Bradford at worst is a better stop gap to drafting a guy in 2 years, at best is our franchise QB. If Orton os the starter again next year we are I. Serious trouble. He will most likely retire if he is listed or the is he is going to be a back up. This offense is in rough shape from OC, OL, and QB. All need upgrades or the futility will continue. If Orton is the QB next year it will be hard for me to watch. Orton is done growing. EJ I guess could , not totally looking like it. The position needs a drastic upgrade from whoever is on the roster today, and that's top to bottom. Also Bradford won't sign an Orton deal, he'll go for at least Fitz's extension money. A Bradford signing also most likely has Spiller and Hughes walk, with an extension for Dareus. Spikes is a grey area depending on what he commands or wants.
Kirby Jackson Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 well, i dont think its like people are dreaming of him fixing everything and their number 1 option ever.... its the best of an ugly bunch that will be lucky to see even 1 other guy with his talent in FA next year. That's how I am looking at it. She's a little thick but has a pretty face. If she could drop 20 lbs and stop thinking that she's hot she could be an 8. When you are perenially dating 4's an 8 is a nice change. If she doesn't drop those 20 lbs you always have Orton whose a 5 and has a good personality.
NoSaint Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 That's how I am looking at it. She's a little thick but has a pretty face. If she could drop 20 lbs and stop thinking that she's hot she could be an 8. When you are perenially dating 4's an 8 is a nice change. If she doesn't drop those 20 lbs you always have Orton whose a 5 and has a good personality. Is this you on record as dating alcoholic girls with mustaches?
thebandit27 Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 My gut tells me "No Thanks" ... let's develop a QB organically ... draft and develop him. I say, keep drafting a QB every year or every other year until we find the right guy. I'm hoping the two ideas are mutually exclusive. That's how I am looking at it. She's a little thick but has a pretty face. If she could drop 20 lbs and stop thinking that she's hot she could be an 8. When you are perenially dating 4's an 8 is a nice change. If she doesn't drop those 20 lbs you always have Orton whose a 5 and has a good personality. So...you're a Mormon? Seriously though, that's how I see it; I'd also keep drafting QBs as well.
Kirby Jackson Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Is this you on record as dating alcoholic girls with mustaches? Usually they shave first. Seriously though, that's how I see it; I'd also keep drafting QBs as well. I'm thinking a mid round high ceiling/low floor type of guy (think Logan Thomas). I don't see them drafting the AJ McCarron/Aaron Murray/Colt McCoy type next year. If they have have Orton and Bradford and a project they will be okay at the position.
Formerly Allan in MD Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 He can play when he's healthy. But his injury cycle started back when he was at Oklahoma. Bad risk.
Ohiostyle Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 I'd love to have him at the right price. Not 15m though. I'd like him a lot more than Orton if the dollars were equal.
JohnC Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Usually they shave first. I'm thinking a mid round high ceiling/low floor type of guy (think Logan Thomas). I don't see them drafting the AJ McCarron/Aaron Murray/Colt McCoy type next year. If they have have Orton and Bradford and a project they will be okay at the position. The thing this franchise can't do is over-reach in their never ending search for a long term qb. Arizona got Palmer and added Stanton to upgrade that position (for the short term) to the level of respectability. Hoyer for the Browns is far from being an elite qb. Yet he affords them an opportunity to help that formerly lost franchise into being a very competitive team. Is Orton a Hoyer type player? He may still be a little rusty but he is in the same range of ability. In the games I have seen Orton play he is a quantum leap better (at this point) than EJ is. He knows how to play and he knows where to go with the ball. He is nothing special but he is a reasonable starter who can get the ball out to the right option if he has the time. EJ Manuel should never have been a first round pick because developmental qbs should be drafted in the second or third round, if not lower. He being rushed on the field was not fair to him nor to the team. But that is not to suggest that having him on the team is a total mistake. This staff has the opportunity to work with him and be in position to make a better judgment as to whether he is capable of being a viable starter in this league. The Pats have brought in a numer of qbs as backups for Brady and as developmental prospects. Hoyer, Mallet and now Grapola (sic) have been on their roster and some have moved on to other teams. What that demonstrates is that you should constantly address upgrading that position, even for the backup position. Your Logan Thomas type prospect is a non-starter with me. In my opinion having physical tools will never compensate for not having natural accuracy. We already have a similar prospect on our roster who I feel very queasy about. An interesting debate question is whether Manuel is a better prospect than Grapola?
Kirby Jackson Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Your Logan Thomas type prospect is a non-starter with me. In my opinion having physical tools will never compensate for not having natural accuracy. We already have a similar prospect on our roster who I feel very queasy about. An interesting debate question is whether Manuel is a better prospect than Grapola? Logan Thomas was once thought of as a first overall pick (believe it or not). It was just an example of a "type" of player though. What I was getting at is that if you have an Orton and a Bradford you have no reason to take a Colt McCoy type who at best will be like an Orton. If you think about filling out the position on the roster, a flier on a guy with all of the physical traits to be a top end guy would compliment Bradford/Orton well. If he flounders there is little downside. If we are talking about what the Bills will do NEXT year I think that's the most realistic scenario IMO. Who knows maybe EJ develops into that guy but I don't see it because of his accuracy issues. If we are looking further into the future, anything is possible.
JohnC Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 Logan Thomas was once thought of as a first overall pick (believe it or not). It was just an example of a "type" of player though. What I was getting at is that if you have an Orton and a Bradford you have no reason to take a Colt McCoy type who at best will be like an Orton. If you think about filling out the position on the roster, a flier on a guy with all of the physical traits to be a top end guy would compliment Bradford/Orton well. If he flounders there is little downside. If we are talking about what the Bills will do NEXT year I think that's the most realistic scenario IMO. Who knows maybe EJ develops into that guy but I don't see it because of his accuracy issues. If we are looking further into the future, anything is possible. The only point that I was making with Logan Thomas or that type of physical prospect is that for me you either have that "accuracy" trait or you don't. I don't believe that you can overcome that deficiency no matter how hard you work at it. In the NFL the windows are so small that you have to have a natural accuracy ability to have something to work with. I was well aware that as a young college player Logan Thomas was considered a future first round pick. I live in the MD/DC area so there were plenty of VA Tech games and reports about the program. The longer he played the more evident it became that inaccuracy was part of his package. That's why he was drafted where he was. With respect to Colt McCoy he is the type of prospect who will some day make a good coach. He is a qb with a lot of smarts and a lot of physical limitations. His ilk is not worth the bother in the pro ranks. Orton is a step or two ahead of a McCoy type player because he does have an adequate to above adequate arm. At least that is how I see it.
Recommended Posts