Help me with the Nuge Obsession

[CosmicBills]

I have a confession. I am a dumb SOB. I just don't get it. For the past few weeks I have read every thread relating to this young kicker (Nudge for those in the know ) but still I can't understand this new obsession.

 

Why is everyone so bent on taking him? It's not like he's the second coming of Lawrence Taylor (okay, bad example), he's a friggin' kicker.

 

The Bills have much more glaring needs than a PK who looks like the lost member of The Backstreet Boys...and, no, I am NOT a Lindell fan.

 

Here's why it seems absurd to me:

 

1) Lindell is entering the 3rd year of a 5 year deal and has a rather large cap number (for a kicker).

 

a. Drafting Nugent (excuse my lameness, NUDGE) in the second round, the Bills would have to give the Nudge a sizeable contract (rough guess, somewhere close to 2 million w/ a cap figure of a little under 1 mill). Suddenly the Bills would have over over 2 million (assuming they kept Lindell for another year) tied up in kickers...and one of them being a young, untested kicker.

 

b. If they cut Lindell it may cost them even more in dead money (Clumping Platlides (sp), you might have a better handle on the cap figures than I do) which means that the Bills would be paying close to 3 million for one position. This seems like a waste to me since the team is pushing close to the cap as is. It would make more sense to spend the money elsewhere which brings me to point number 2...

 

 

2) There are MUCH more glaring holes to fill at this time. Namely, the offensive line which has been ignored in the draft for the past few years. By taking the Nudgester in the second round, the Bills would be essentially ignoring the position again. Sweet. Sign me up for that!

 

a. I would also rank drafting a WR, CB, and DL as higher priorities than PK...

 

b. While the Bills can't fill every hole in the draft, they could get a lot done in FA this year...assuming they have the cap space. And, as stated in point 1, that becomes hard if you have so much tied up in a position that gets into the game a total of 5 times a week (if we're lucky).

 

3) While I agree Lindell is a weakness, taking Nudge will NOT translate into more immediate wins.

 

a. The Ralph is a tough place to kick. It takes a season or two to learn the winds etc. And while I agree Nudge would be an upgrade over Lindell, I don't think the return will be instant as some here predict.

 

b. That said, since this will be Rian's third year I am holding out hope that he will improve again (he made signifigant strides from his first year in B-lo, though he still sucked. He just sucked a little less.) and improve other areas of the club.

 

So, I don't get this whole obsession. Is it his hair? His soccer style approach? His dreamy good looks? It has to be something. Someone enlighten me. Show me what I am missing, because I for one will be upset if the Bills do take him with their first pick.

 

Edit: I'm such a moron that I screwed up his nick-name in the darn heading

[Buffan00]

I have a confession. I am a dumb SOB. I just don't get it. For the past few weeks I have read every thread relating to this young kicker (Nudge for those in the know   ) but still I can't understand this new obsession.

 

Why is everyone so bent on taking him? It's not like he's the second coming of Lawrence Taylor (okay, bad example), he's a friggin' kicker. 

 

The Bills have much more glaring needs than a PK who looks like the lost member of The Backstreet Boys...and, no, I am NOT a Lindell fan.

 

Here's why it seems absurd to me:

 

1) Lindell is entering the 3rd year of a 5 year deal and has a rather large cap number (for a kicker).

   

      a. Drafting Nugent (excuse my lameness, NUDGE) in the second round, the Bills would have to give the Nudge a sizeable contract (rough guess, somewhere close to 2 million w/ a cap figure of a little under 1 mill). Suddenly the Bills would have over over 2 million (assuming they kept Lindell for another year) tied up in kickers...and one of them being a young, untested kicker.

 

    b. If they cut Lindell it may cost them even more in dead money (Clumping Platlides (sp), you might have a better handle on the cap figures than I do) which means that the Bills would be paying close to 3 million for one position. This seems like a waste to me since the team is pushing close to the cap as is. It would make more sense to spend the money elsewhere which brings me to point number 2...

2) There are MUCH more glaring holes to fill at this time. Namely, the offensive line which has been ignored in the draft for the past few years. By taking the Nudgester in the second round, the Bills would be essentially ignoring the position again. Sweet. Sign me up for that!

 

    a. I would also rank drafting a WR, CB, and DL as higher priorities than PK...

 

    b. While the Bills can't fill every hole in the draft, they could get a lot done in FA this year...assuming they have the cap space. And, as stated in point 1, that becomes hard if you have so much tied up in a position that gets into the game a total of 5 times a week (if we're lucky).

 

3) While I agree Lindell is a weakness, taking Nudge will NOT translate into more immediate wins.

   

    a. The Ralph is a tough place to kick. It takes a season or two to learn the winds etc. And while I agree Nudge would be an upgrade over Lindell, I don't think the return will be instant as some here predict.

 

    b. That said, since this will be Rian's third year I am holding out hope that he will improve again (he made signifigant strides from his first year in B-lo, though he still sucked. He just sucked a little less.) and improve other areas of the club.

 

So, I don't get this whole obsession. Is it his hair? His soccer style approach? His dreamy good looks? It has to be something. Someone enlighten me. Show me what I am missing, because I for one will be upset if the Bills do take him with their first pick.

 

Edit: I'm such a moron that I screwed up his nick-name in the darn heading

223331[/snapback]

Dont be so hard on yourself man!

[Albany,n.y.]

I checked Clumpy's chart & Lindell has $575,000 in bonus money left. He's due to be paid $825,000 this year. He also has a $200,000 bonus due. If we keep him his cap $ is $1,312,500. If we cut him before 6/1 we get a $575,000 cap hit which saves us $737,500 on the cap. Say we draft Nugent & give him a 5 year contract with a $2 million bonus & a $305,000 salary. His cap hit is $705,000, so we actually save $32,500 on the cap.

 

Outside of cap #s, realistically it's not likely that we'll get a rookie starter out of our 1st (2nd round) pick. Unless we get extremely lucky, the 2nd rounder will be average to below average (See Josh Reed, Ryan Denney). Instead we can lock up the kicker spot for the next 5 years at a minimum & possibly a decade or more.

 

Anyone who doesn't think a kicker is one of the most important positions doesn't remember Super Bowl XXV or the Jets-Pittsburgh game this year. Kickers win championships & a good kicker might be the biggest bargain in the NFL salary structure-especially on his 1st contract.

[Alaska Darin]

I checked Clumpy's chart & Lindell has $575,000 in bonus money left.  He's due to be paid $825,000 this year.  He also has a $200,000 bonus due.  If we keep him his cap $ is $1,312,500.  If we cut him before 6/1 we get a $575,000 cap hit which saves us $737,500 on the cap.  Say we draft Nugent & give him a 5 year contract with a $2 million bonus & a $305,000 salary.  His cap hit is $705,000, so we actually save $32,500 on the cap. 

 

Outside of cap #s, realistically it's not likely that we'll get a rookie starter out of our 1st (2nd round) pick.  Unless we get extremely lucky, the 2nd rounder will be average to below average (See Josh Reed, Ryan Denney).  Instead we can lock up the kicker spot for the next 5 years at a minimum & possibly a decade or more. 

 

Anyone who doesn't think a kicker is one of the most important positions doesn't remember Super Bowl XXV or the Jets-Pittsburgh game this year.  Kickers win championships & a good kicker might be the biggest bargain in the NFL salary structure-especially on his 1st contract.

223356[/snapback]

Good post.

[Fezmid]

I checked Clumpy's chart & Lindell has $575,000 in bonus money left.  He's due to be paid $825,000 this year.  He also has a $200,000 bonus due.  If we keep him his cap $ is $1,312,500.  If we cut him before 6/1 we get a $575,000 cap hit which saves us $737,500 on the cap.  Say we draft Nugent & give him a 5 year contract with a $2 million bonus & a $305,000 salary.  His cap hit is $705,000, so we actually save $32,500 on the cap. 

 

Outside of cap #s, realistically it's not likely that we'll get a rookie starter out of our 1st (2nd round) pick.  Unless we get extremely lucky, the 2nd rounder will be average to below average (See Josh Reed, Ryan Denney).  Instead we can lock up the kicker spot for the next 5 years at a minimum & possibly a decade or more. 

 

Anyone who doesn't think a kicker is one of the most important positions doesn't remember Super Bowl XXV or the Jets-Pittsburgh game this year.  Kickers win championships & a good kicker might be the biggest bargain in the NFL salary structure-especially on his 1st contract.

223356[/snapback]

 

I'm with tgreg on not understanding the facination with the kicker. Kicking in college doesn't really translate to the NFL from what I gather. I have no idea what the differences are, but great kickers (and punters) in college rarely seem to become great kickers/punters in the NFL. Where did Vinetari come from? Mare? Vanderject? Even our very own Moorman. I don't remember hearing anything about these guys in college, yet they've all had/are having great NFL careers.

 

Not saying the guy won't be good, but I just don't know if I want to spend a 2nd rounder on him. I've never seen him play though.

CW

[Mark VI]

I checked Clumpy's chart & Lindell has $575,000 in bonus money left.  He's due to be paid $825,000 this year.  He also has a $200,000 bonus due.  If we keep him his cap $ is $1,312,500.  If we cut him before 6/1 we get a $575,000 cap hit which saves us $737,500 on the cap.  Say we draft Nugent & give him a 5 year contract with a $2 million bonus & a $305,000 salary.  His cap hit is $705,000, so we actually save $32,500 on the cap. 

 

Outside of cap #s, realistically it's not likely that we'll get a rookie starter out of our 1st (2nd round) pick.  Unless we get extremely lucky, the 2nd rounder will be average to below average (See Josh Reed, Ryan Denney).  Instead we can lock up the kicker spot for the next 5 years at a minimum & possibly a decade or more. 

 

Anyone who doesn't think a kicker is one of the most important positions doesn't remember Super Bowl XXV or the Jets-Pittsburgh game this year.  Kickers win championships & a good kicker might be the biggest bargain in the NFL salary structure-especially on his 1st contract.

223356[/snapback]

 

Excellent as always, Harv. Nugent would be a very sharp selection. If the Bills decide to sign a better Veteran, such as Jeff Reed ( Steelers ) or Jay Feeley

( Falcons), I'm OK with that also. Just strengthen a position which is crying for an upgrade.

 

People act if it's such a HUGE risk to select Nugent in Round 2. Josh Reed, Ryan Denney, Tavares Tillman...I could go on forever with all the flop 2nd round picks in Bills history.

 

Much can be accomplished in March Free Agency with PROVEN VET talent, prior to Draft Day. This allows you to roll the dice on a rare talent like Nugent. I watch every Ohio St. game and know what I see. The guy was 8-9 from 50 + yards. Lindell struggles from 28 yards. A great Kicker like Adam Viniteri can be the difference between winning and losing. Nugent has that talent. Not to mention his deep kickoffs and field position factor.

[shibuya]

Nugent is not your average college Kicker. He has all the leg, he has shown consistent accuracy and he plays in Ohio so it's logical he can kick in bad/cold weather.

 

Bottom line is the Kicker is responsible for 90 - 120 pts per year, and having confidence in your Kicker to be accurate from 40yds out is priceless IMO. Having that same kicker capable of kicking footballs into the endzone for touchbacks in another plus. Lindell is overpaid, and there is not a person out there who can say they feel conifdent with Lindell.

 

I'm all for grabing Mr. Nugent in the 2nd round, especially if we can parlay Travis into a bonus 2nd rd pick

[BillsGuyInMalta]

Excellent as always, Harv. Nugent would be a very sharp selection. If the Bills decide to sign a better Veteran, such as Jeff Reed ( Steelers ) or Jay Feeley

( Falcons), I'm OK with that also. Just strengthen a position which is crying for an upgrade.

 

People act if it's such a HUGE risk to select Nugent in Round 2. Josh Reed, Ryan Denney, Tavares Tillman...I could go on forever with all the flop 2nd round picks in Bills history.

 

  Much can be accomplished in March Free Agency with PROVEN VET talent, prior to Draft Day. This allows you to roll the dice on a rare talent like Nugent. I watch every Ohio St. game and know what I see. The guy was 8-9 from 50 + yards. Lindell struggles from 28 yards. A great Kicker like Adam Viniteri can be the difference between winning and losing. Nugent has that talent.  Not to mention his deep kickoffs and field position factor.

223385[/snapback]

Everyone here knows that I'm a huge Nugent fan, but if the Bills were able to get a new kicker out of Reed, Vinateiri or Feeley, I'd be very happy and hope Nugent lands outside of the AFC East. The problem is I doubt that ANY of those players make it to free agency. The Patriots are going to franchise Vinateiri I'm sure, and the Steelers and the Falcons I'm sure wont let their kickers explore other options and lock them up. I just think that since these teams will try their hardest to keep these kickers where they already are, getting Nugent is just our best option.

[Coach Tuesday]

Because if you can get a top-five kicker locked up on a 5-6 year rookie contract, you're beating the market and getting a steal. Plus, unlike most rooks, the kicker has a direct effect on EVERY GAME in terms of both points and field position. I think kickers are way, way undervalued in this League - it's no coincidence that the top two kickers in the League happen to be playing for the Superbowl teams. As Bill Simmons always says, in a world full of however-billion many people, it's amazing that we can't find 32 humans who can kick fieldgoals consistently - but we can't. If you find one, and you can lock him up cheap (a la Morman), DO IT.

[stevestojan]

Nugent is the best kicker to EVER come out of college. There is this much buzz for a reason. He kicks 50 yarders like he isn't even trying.

 

Like another poster said, what other position gives you an immediate starter and impact player?

 

Also, you're content with a kicker who isn't kicking 42+ FGS because his coaches have no confidence in him.

 

He will be a guarenteed impact. Kicking a FG is kicking a FG. If the line holds up, and it doesn't get blocked, there is little difference.

 

We are currently a well above average team. If it comes down to the difference between 9-7 and 10-6 because of a missed kick, I think you'll then see the impact. (oh wait, that just happened, didn't it?)

[Fezmid]

Nugent is the best kicker to EVER come out of college. There is this much buzz for a reason. He kicks 50 yarders like he isn't even trying.

 

So what makes people think he'll last until the 2nd round? Janikowski was a first rounder, and according to everyone here he's not even close to as Nugent.

 

CW

[JimBob2232]

Jano was a HUGE shock going in the first. That was very unconventional. I wouldnt be too suprised to see it happen again, but usually there are some really good skill players left towards the end of the first that wouldnt warrant a kicker. But who knows.

 

I can almost see NE taking him and letting Vinitieri go...

[Mark Vader]

The obsession for me comes from seeing Rian Lindell play. Lindell can not be counted on for the big kicks. Now if the Bills are able to upgrade the kicker position via free agency, I am fine with that.

 

Still,Nugent has been an amazing kicker and has been unbelieveable from 50+yards out. Believe the hype.

 

Mike Nugent was one of the biggest reasons why Ohio State was being referred to as the "Luckeyes". It was almost obscene as to how many "impossible" FG's this kid was being asked to make, in order to save OSU from being beaten. And he made practically all of them.

[CosmicBills]

Interesting (and educational) posts. I still am uncertain of this move though I am starting to see the light. As Fez said, kicking in college is easier than the pros (having been in both stadiums, the winds in OSU have NOTHING on the Ralph...not to mention he is done kicking by November whereas he would have to kick well into December and January in the pros).

 

I think it's naive to expect the kid to walk in and be an all-pro from the get-go. It just doesn't happen w/ kickers.

 

I did want to clear one thing up though with my earlier post. I would be ALL for taking Nudge in the second round if the Bills manage to get another 2nd round pick from moving Henry. I just don't want to see them move up (by packaging additional picks or whatever) to take him. I just don't see the value.

[stevestojan]

So what makes people think he'll last until the 2nd round?  Janikowski was a first rounder, and according to everyone here he's not even close to as Nugent.

 

CW

223448[/snapback]

 

I do think he will be better than Janikowski, however, I don't think we will EVER see a move that unconventional (read: stupid) ever again. Currently, for what he could add to the team, I think he might be worth a high 2nd rounder, but a #1? It's not that he's not worth it, it's that the next best kicker in college will be around in the 3rd, so why use a 1st for having someone who is the best, when you can wait till the 3rd or 4th even to pick up someone just marginally less talented.

 

In short, no one will ever be dumb enough again to pick a kicker in the 1st round.

[TigerJ]

Everyone here knows that I'm a huge Nugent fan, but if the Bills were able to get a new kicker out of Reed, Vinateiri or Feeley, I'd be very happy and hope Nugent lands outside of the AFC East.  The problem is I doubt that ANY of those players make it to free agency.  The Patriots are going to franchise Vinateiri I'm sure, and the Steelers and the Falcons I'm sure wont let their kickers explore other options and lock them up.  I just think that since these teams will try their hardest to keep these kickers where they already are, getting Nugent is just our best option.

223411[/snapback]

 

Your post got me to thinking, how did Reed, Vinitieri and Feeley enter the league. I did some checking. Reed was an undrafted rookie free agent signing for Pittsburgh. Vinatieri was an undrafted rookie free agent signing by the Patriots. Jay Feely was a free agent signing by the Falcons after he had been out of college for three years. I have nothing against Nugent. The point I would make is that many top notch kickers in the NFL have a much more humble start than that of the Raiders' Janikowski. I expect that Nugent will probably be a great NFL kicker. However, an NFL team that does its homework can very likely get a very good, even a great kicker without paying nearly so high a price. Teams don't find a lot of undrafted players who make a big impact on the offensive line (the Patriots being a notable exception). It's rare to find an undrafted defensive end who is destined for greatness. But, teams find undrafted kickers all the time.

 

Lets look at the flip side. Do drafted kickers ever flop? Who was the last kicker drafted fairly high by the Buffalo Bills? I think it was Gary Anderson. We all know he had a great career in Pittsburgh, but Buffalo cut him because he was awful. There remained a lingering suspicion that Anderson deliberately screwed up in Buffalo because he didn't want to be here, but the fact remains that drafting a kicker is not a guarantee you're going to get a great one.

 

Given that to draft a kicker in round 2 would cost the Bills a chance to draft a player who could have a significant impact, ( I think the Bills can indeed get a starter in round 2), and the fact that most good kickers in the pros are undrafted, I would rather the Bills look elsewhere early in the draft. If they want to draft Joe Rheem, a very good kicker out of Kansas, in round 7 I'd have no problem with that.

[Nanker]

Trade future draft choices to get into the first round, and then pick Nugent.

Then, keep Lindell and have Nugent learn how to kick in the NFL while he's on the practice squad.

 

That's what they did with Losman.

Few (ahem) complained about that.

 

Don't let Nugent get on the field until Lindell's ready to retire - after all HE's the STARTER and it's HIS job and pride at stake, and Nugent will only be a rookie. He'll have plenty of time to develop and have an impact in the future.

 

[/sARCASM]

[mead107]

Trade future draft choices to get into the first round, and then pick Nugent.

Then, keep Lindell and have Nugent learn how to kick in the NFL while he's on the practice squad.

 

That's what they did with Losman.

Few (ahem) complained about that.

 

Don't let Nugent get on the field until Lindell's ready to retire - after all HE's the STARTER and it's HIS job and pride at stake, and Nugent will only be a rookie. He'll have plenty of time to develop and have an impact in the future.

 

[/sARCASM]

223617[/snapback]

sound like a QB problem , why draft any one , damm rookies

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

I'm not obsessed with Nugent at all...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...though I do think "Cat Scratch Fever" is a great album.

[ch19079]

forget the cap numbers and all that.

 

Lindell made 1 of 3 kicks from 40+ this year. if we had a choice betwen a 45 yarder or a punt, we PUNT!!!! :I starred in Brokeback Mountain:

 

thats INSANE!!!

 

NUDGE is the best kicker in the draft hands down. i think hes ~ 8 of 10 from 50+ carrer wise. a good reliable kicker. the question is, will he still be on the board when we get to pick.

 

draft NUDGE and cut Lindell.

 

or sign a good kicker in FA....