FireChan Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) I agree they've misused the RBs, but I don't think this is a fair criticism. They opened the Houston game with three straight passes which arguably opened up the run game, then were roundly criticized for throwing too often. The problem they had was not having a QB who can pass. What I don't understand is why they start the game with the quick, change of pace, light running home run threat and then sprinkle in the hard running bigger guys. It seems to me you soften them up with the tough running, get manageable downs early, get in a rhythm, then sprinkle in CJ. The continued use of him on first down boggles my mind. At least it appeared they may be moving away from that yesterday. One can hope. I don't pretend to exactly know the offensive philosophy, as it seems to change every game. There are a few things I do know. I know we passed more on first down than ran vs. the Pats. I know our offense plays extremely effectively in the second half, which points to good adjustments. And for the kicker, this horrific excuse for a run was the first play of the game. https://vine.co/v/OqB9YQxv31M 5 yards easy on a perfect hole, and ol' Spills bounces it out for a loss of 3. Completely ruins the first drive. Can someone explain to me how much more effectively of a play can be drawn up? Can someone point out anyone on that play who horrifically messed up their assignment? I can, but it's only one player, and it sure as hell ain't the coach or O-line. Also, don't look now, but our "non-physical" Woods blindsides a defender and launches him back two yards. Edited October 14, 2014 by FireChan
Rob's House Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 I don't pretend to exactly know the offensive philosophy, as it seems to change every game. There are a few things I do know. I know we passed more on first down than ran vs. the Pats. I know our offense plays extremely effectively in the second half, which points to good adjustments. And for the kicker, this horrific excuse for a run was the first play of the game. https://vine.co/v/OqB9YQxv31M 5 yards easy on a perfect hole, and ol' Spills bounces it out for a loss of 3. Completely ruins the first drive. Can someone explain to me how much more effectively of a play can be drawn up? Can someone point out anyone on that play who horrifically messed up their assignment? I can, but it's only one player, and it sure as hell ain't the coach or O-line. Yeah, that was awful. I've been a big CJ supporter but I'm starting to think that he's just too dumb to learn. If he could slow down, set up his blocks, and then take off he'd be unstoppable. Problem is he's only got one speed. Those bounce outs would be more effective if the defense committed to the middle first, but he's already changed direction and running sideways before they even get out of position. It's awful. And when he doesn't bounce out he runs straight into a defender 9 out of 10 times. Strangely, the much slower Fred Jackson finds room in there, and it's not like he's knocking guys over at the LOS every other play. He finds a crease and takes what's there. CJ just doesn't get it, and he's a pretty old guy not to get it. I'm starting to think he never will.
FireChan Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Yeah, that was awful. I've been a big CJ supporter but I'm starting to think that he's just too dumb to learn. If he could slow down, set up his blocks, and then take off he'd be unstoppable. Problem is he's only got one speed. Those bounce outs would be more effective if the defense committed to the middle first, but he's already changed direction and running sideways before they even get out of position. It's awful. And when he doesn't bounce out he runs straight into a defender 9 out of 10 times. Strangely, the much slower Fred Jackson finds room in there, and it's not like he's knocking guys over at the LOS every other play. He finds a crease and takes what's there. CJ just doesn't get it, and he's a pretty old guy not to get it. I'm starting to think he never will. I'll take it one step further and say that's why we tried to use the read option and draw with Spiller so much. Those delayed runs are attempts for him to be forced to wait for his blocks to be set up. Trouble is, our O-line isn't good enough to create and seal gaping holes long enough for Spiller to make a good decision and commit to it. You watch a guy like Charles, McCoy or Sproles, they appear to almost run at half-speed behind the line of scrimmage, then turn on the jets while hitting the hole. Edited October 14, 2014 by FireChan
rfk Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Spiller in space ...yep outer space....he sucks..get it through thy concussed skull...he will suck forever and who ever he plays for next year
Wayne Cubed Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Spiller was a 1,200 yard rusher on like 200 carries before Hackett. Seriously, what do people give him the benefit of the doubt? If his dad wasn't a former NFL coach, would he even be in this position? Spiller has proven himself at the NFL level. What had Hackett done? It's such a joke. I'm like the most positive Bills fan but it's getting harder. They draft a qb, give him a rookie OC and no qb coach, then bail on him after 14 games. They take one of the most dangerous players in the NFL and just keep running him up the middle. The oline, despite a ton of resources, is much worse than it was 2 years ago. You're right. Even though a ton of offensive players are regressing, Hackett is not a problem. I'm sure Norv Turner, Chip Kelly, or Sean Payton would be achieving the same results with this talent. All hail Nate Hackett! No offense, but this post is a bit ridiculous. Your counter-argument is that because CJ Spiller had 1.5 good seasons out of 5 that it must be the OC/Offenses problem? If Spiller was absolutely dominant for 4 of those seasons and then this year it nose dived, as it has, then maybe you have an argument. There is another player I'm thinking of that had 1 really good season, Josh Freeman, whats he doing now? What about Chris Johnson, what happened to him? I suppose it's all those other OC's fault right? Or maybe Spiller just isn't playing very good. Lets look for some proof of that: Example 1 (from 2012) Look a hole right up the middle! Nahhhhhhh I'll bounce it outside instead. There are a bunch of these types of runs, shall I go on? Then there's this year: https://vine.co/v/OKUBHbhFmY3 https://vine.co/v/OKUu0DaiEWY https://vine.co/v/OqB9YQxv31M Look, the holes and the yards to be gained are there. So the play calls are right. You can't argue that fact. Maybe you are right though, maybe they aren't using him correctly. Maybe he should be on the field less. You bring up Jamaal Charles, Shady McCoy, etc. but the problem is, they run up the middle! They run between the tackles. Chip Kelly has McCoy run up the middle, hell he ran for 18 yards up the middle Sunday night This team needs consistent running on 1st down and Spiller just can not deliver that. That then sets up the team for 2nd/3rd and long. The runs need to be positive yards, not negative. If you feel so strongly that Nate Hackett is making the wrong play calls, where's the proof? Edited October 14, 2014 by Wayne Cubed
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Is this a recycled thread? Does anybody else remember when Gailey was being ripped on here for the way he was using Spiller and Jackson? It wasn't that long ago.
Jerry Jabber Posted October 14, 2014 Author Posted October 14, 2014 Is this a recycled thread? Does anybody else remember when Gailey was being ripped on here for the way he was using Spiller and Jackson? It wasn't that long ago. ` I remember when fans were bashing Gailey for not giving the ball to Spiller enough because he was averaging over 6 yards a carry. Turns out, Gailey was the only one that knew how to use Spiller properly.
Agent 91 Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 And while I'm all for tailoring your the scheme to your talent, the ask in this case shouldn't be as tall of an order as CJ makes it seem. Why are Bills fans letting him off the hook as if the run between the tackles is such an exotic concept? Would you ask Jamaal Charles or Lesean McCoy to just follow to guards every play? Yes Spiller should have the capability of doing it BUT! Is that all you want to do to produce the biggest gains in Spiller? Do you feel that he is being used to his full potential. Is this the right system ir are you trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? Dixon and Fred are the up the middle guys. And how is their production as move the pile guys in this offense? I know what you mean in regards to Spiller let off the hook. But I dont wanna grade him too much in a scheme that is predicated on what the OC knows how to do vs the system fit of the player. All in all its just not fair. That's clear when Kyle Orton is on a 16 game pace for 4800 yards, 24 TDs and 16 picks. So you take 2 game stats add them up then multiply by 8 and thats your point? Really? Orton sucks, Spiller needs to be traded. And Hackett should not be reporting to OBD next year. End of story Face it, if CJ needs his own special game plan to be above average (even when he had it in 2012 he still wasn't the world beater revisionists would have you believe he was), then he's simply not that good of a RB. And oh yes, while we're making a habit of repeating things, here's something that needs to be talked about more: the Bills wanted Carlos Hyde...badly. Why do you suppose that was?
Agent 91 Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Let's look at it this way. Larger sample size. 3352 yards 20td 12int. 744 yards rushing and 8 more touchdowns on the ground. If you are looking at stats in a vacuum thats what EJ gives you. And he clearly sucks so.... why are we talking about Orton. What does 'used in space' mean? He still needs to learn to follow blockers in order to get 'in to space' since he is a poor runner, I assume the defenses will watch him a little closer if he starts to run a pass pattern. The fact is , he is not very good. Maybe on a different team, he would be more effective, but he doesn't fit on this team, right now. You are correct. But I think you kind of qualified yourself a bit which is that Spiller might find a hime somewhere else. He is clearly being wasted here. I honestly see Bryce Brown as a lesser Spiller. Philly without or maybe even spelling McCoy would look a lot different. We dont have big athletic guys with footwork on this line. Thurman and co. Did. Those guys pulled the moved and they picked up their assignments. Our line is devoid of anyone like that.
The Big Cat Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Let's look at it this way. Larger sample size. 3352 yards 20td 12int. 744 yards rushing and 8 more touchdowns on the ground. If you are looking at stats in a vacuum thats what EJ gives you. And he clearly sucks so.... why are we talking about Orton. To illustrate that you can't knock Spiller's sudden drop in stats as an indicator of poor scheme when two average-at-best QBs are doing just fine in it. You helped make my point. And to that point, we're not talking about a below average 3.5 ypc, we're talking about 1.7 ypc for Spiller over the last two games. Further, Jackson and Dixon ARE way more effective up the middle, and while Biscuit wants to argue stats (even though it's a worthless exercise he's bound to lose anyways), if you watch the games you'll see that Spiller is the same running back he's been since 2010: no vision, no patience, no clue how to set up and run off his blocks, just poor instincts. Back to stats: this rarely shows up on the sheet for him because every other game he'll bounce one outside for a huge gain, and it skews his numbers. I'd argue that more often than not those plays result from a defensive breakdown, without which, as has been the case the last two weeks, he's utterly worthless.
Agent 91 Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 To illustrate that you can't knock Spiller's sudden drop in stats as an indicator of poor scheme when two average-at-best QBs are doing just fine in it. You helped make my point. And to that point, we're not talking about a below average 3.5 ypc, we're talking about 1.7 ypc for Spiller over the last two games. Further, Jackson and Dixon ARE way more effective up the middle, and while Biscuit wants to argue stats (even though it's a worthless exercise he's bound to lose anyways), if you watch the games you'll see that Spiller is the same running back he's been since 2010: no vision, no patience, no clue how to set up and run off his blocks, just poor instincts. Back to stats: this rarely shows up on the sheet for him because every other game he'll bounce one outside for a huge gain, and it skews his numbers. I'd argue that more often than not those plays result from a defensive breakdown, without which, as has been the case the last two weeks, he's utterly worthless. Utterly worthless I cant get there. BUT your overall point is made. I cant argue that.
The Big Cat Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Utterly worthless I cant get there. BUT your overall point is made. I cant argue that. And I can't blame you for being reluctant to turn the page on a player oozing with potential. But that's what brings us back to the original argument: who's responsible for him not realizing his potential? Hackett? Or him?
GG Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 And therein lies the rub. Does Hackett, who's not an offensive genius at this point, scrap the entire design of his offense to fit the skills of one player who's never shown proof that he can carry the offense on his back? Or does he try to fit that player into an offense designed for the rest of the skilled players? Seems to be a classic square peg round hole dilemma to me.
dpberr Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Hackett doesn't utilize any of the weapons he's got effectively whatsoever.
The Big Cat Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 And therein lies the rub. Does Hackett, who's not an offensive genius at this point, scrap the entire design of his offense to fit the skills of one player who's never shown proof that he can carry the offense on his back? Or does he try to fit that player into an offense designed for the rest of the skilled players? Seems to be a classic square peg round hole dilemma to me. So it goes when you inherit a specialty player leftover from a prior regime. But IMO, it's on Spiller to prove he's more than a speciality player and he simply hasn't. His skill set is far too narrow.
Wayne Cubed Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 So it goes when you inherit a specialty player leftover from a prior regime. But IMO, it's on Spiller to prove he's more than a speciality player and he simply hasn't. His skill set is far too narrow. I think a tiny bit is on Hackett and I think he's slowly realizing it. You can't have Spiller in on 1st down, he just hurts the offense way too much by not gaining yardage. Then it becomes 2nd/3rd and long. And that's not to say the plays called are aren't right, because they are, there are holes for him to run through, he just refuses to run through them or doesn't see the hole.
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 I don't pretend to exactly know the offensive philosophy, as it seems to change every game. There are a few things I do know. I know we passed more on first down than ran vs. the Pats. I know our offense plays extremely effectively in the second half, which points to good adjustments. And for the kicker, this horrific excuse for a run was the first play of the game. https://vine.co/v/OqB9YQxv31M 5 yards easy on a perfect hole, and ol' Spills bounces it out for a loss of 3. Completely ruins the first drive. Can someone explain to me how much more effectively of a play can be drawn up? Can someone point out anyone on that play who horrifically messed up their assignment? I can, but it's only one player, and it sure as hell ain't the coach or O-line. Also, don't look now, but our "non-physical" Woods blindsides a defender and launches him back two yards. I agree with you, and I have ripped spiller for that run. However, seeing it again-- chandler got blown up. If chandler doesn't get pushed 3 yards backward at the snap, then maybe spiller keeps it inside.
bobobonators Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Under NH I rarely ever see any players go in motion. I see the same standard run formation sets - which of course we end up running out of 90% of the time. CJ is never lined up at WR. CJ is not a part of the passing game. We call very few screen passes - which should be an asset due to Fred and CJ's skills. We call very few misdirection plays. That being said about NH - it appears that this offensive line has regressed during Marrone's tenure. Very disheartening.
NoSaint Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 I don't pretend to exactly know the offensive philosophy, as it seems to change every game. There are a few things I do know. I know we passed more on first down than ran vs. the Pats. I know our offense plays extremely effectively in the second half, which points to good adjustments. And for the kicker, this horrific excuse for a run was the first play of the game. https://vine.co/v/OqB9YQxv31M 5 yards easy on a perfect hole, and ol' Spills bounces it out for a loss of 3. Completely ruins the first drive. Can someone explain to me how much more effectively of a play can be drawn up? Can someone point out anyone on that play who horrifically messed up their assignment? I can, but it's only one player, and it sure as hell ain't the coach or O-line. Also, don't look now, but our "non-physical" Woods blindsides a defender and launches him back two yards. truly, he saw the unblocked guy coming to fill the hole. apparently he thought that woods would have the outside block and not be crashing inside - hence he bounced outside to the unblocked guy. im guessing spiller got it wrong there, but im also guessing that just trusting the blocks has not been an easy task given the frequent failures. I agree with you, and I have ripped spiller for that run. However, seeing it again-- chandler got blown up. If chandler doesn't get pushed 3 yards backward at the snap, then maybe spiller keeps it inside. that also probably didnt help him trust the play
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