Orton is mediocre

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

My apologies for the yous

 

Regardless of its result to the rest of the team?

 

A backup for what purpose? Only for injury?

Regardless of the parts of the team that committed too many penalties (in all) multiple holds that brought back 2 or more 25+ yard rushes, and

regardless of part of the team dropped (in all) multiple passes for sure first downs.

 

so far both this season EJ and KO are even @. .500 the latter has more INT's than the prios who played 2x more games.

and YES, you sign a journeyman to be backup in case of injury.

Edited October 16, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[Hapless Bills Fan]

There is the argument that Orton should have gotten the ball out quicker. That would be true if this was a West Coast offense. The 49ers' standard issue play involved Joe Montana taking a three step drop, then throwing a quick slant to Jerry Rice. The bread and butter play of this offense does not involve Kyle Orton taking a three step drop, then throwing a quick slant to Sammy Watkins. That just isn't the offense we have. If Orton chose to get rid of the ball quickly on every play, the result would be a lot of dump-offs to RBs. No different than the offense we would have had with Trent Edwards or EJ Manuel. But if we want to get the wide receivers involved in the game, the quarterback has to hold onto the ball a bit longer.

 

The other anti-Orton argument is that he should have sensed the pressure, and gotten rid of the ball quickly on that particular play. But basic football 101 is that the defense puts its best pass rusher at RDE, because the QB is most vulnerable from his blindside. The offense puts its best, most highly paid offensive lineman at LT to counter this threat. But in the rush to blame Orton for everything wrong with this offense, this basic football knowledge has been completely cast aside. People are acting like Orton is the only NFL quarterback with a blindside. As if all other NFL quarterbacks had eyes mounted on long stalks--like crabs' eyes.

 

I could be mistaken and often am - I thought the offense Hackett/Marrone installed was, in fact, supposed to be a West Coast Offense with Run and Shoot elements?

Linky1 Linky2 Linky3 Linky4

 

I have to admit, I don't understand the polarization and generalization folks here feel the need to indulge in. In the same post you talk about critiquing the play, not the player - but then you make it about the player yourself with references to "anti-Orton arguments" in critiquing that specific play. Please, you can't have it both ways. Either we're critiquing the play, and perhaps disagreeing -is the QB or the OL to blame? - or we're making it about the player - but don't complain about folks making it about the player not the play, then yourself generalize any criticism of the play into an "anti Orton argument".

 

One strong case for pulling EJ and playing Orton, is that our OL isn't up to snuff and a veteran like Orton should be able to do a better job of reading the defense, sensing pressure, and getting the ball out quickly when necessary. Yes, I feel Orton should have sensed the pressure on that and done a better job protecting the ball. It's one of the better arguments for why he's playing, a veteran's ability to read the D, be aware of where the pressure is coming from, and make good judgements about when he can wait, and when he needs to dump the ball off quickly.

 

Defending a QB's choice to stand fixed behind a collapsing OL, fail to protect the ball, and not only take a sack but take a strip because of what would happen "if he did that on every play" is a strange choice of argument. It's the QB's job to "know when to hold it, know when to fold it". An offense which is able to successfully throw downfield is not an offense where the QB tries to do that on every play, especially if trying to do that results in a turnover. Avoiding turnovers and avoiding sacks are also important keys to victory, yes?

 

That's not to say Orton isn't the better choice than EJ right now, but it's an arguable viewpoint that he has yet to show he's a great improvement at QB despite the gaudy increased passing yardage. There are several key points (sacks and turnovers) where he needs to step up for us to have a chance.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Hopeful

[dave mcbride]

> EJ and KO are both .500 in the only stat that any fan on this board should actually care about.

 

I care about winning percentage when evaluating the team as a whole. But I wouldn't use it to evaluate individual players. If (for example) a LT hasn't allowed a sack or pressure all season, and is blowing defenders up in the run game, I don't need to know his team's winning percentage to know he's a good player. You could say the same thing about a player at any other position. That specifically includes quarterback.

 

> 2. EJ, through the first two weeks was completing 60-70% of his passes, and had a QB rating of about 95.

 

Both completion percentage and quarterback rating can be inflated by attempting a lot of short, high percentage passes. Given that Manuel almost never attempts passes more than 5 yards past the line of scrimmage, I think it's safe to say his quarterback rating overstates his play. This season, both his QBR and his air yards per attempt are among the weakest in the league. (31st best IIRC.)

 

> 3. In games that EJ throws fewer than 30 passes in his career, he is 5-1 with a 128.95 QBR

 

If the Bills don't ask Manuel to attempt a lot of passes, it generally means that the running game is successful and the defense is playing well. I'd expect the team to win a lot of games under those circumstances regardless of the quality of quarterback play.

 

As an aside, it's easy to confuse quarterback rating with QBR. Quarterback rating is an old way of measuring a quarterback's performance. Kelly Holcomb and John Elway had nearly identical quarterback ratings. There are better tools available for measuring a QB's performance. QBR is a relatively new stat; which measures a QB's performance on a scale of 0 - 100. Given that a QBR of 128.95 is impossible, I think you meant to write that Manuel had a quarterback rating of 128.95 in the games you mentioned.

 

Hey OA: http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/qbr-espns-deeply-flawed-made-for-tv-stat/7978/ . Some food for thought.

[bobobonators]

 

 

 

 

One strong case for pulling EJ and playing Orton, is that our OL isn't up to snuff and a veteran like Orton should be able to do a better job of reading the defense, sensing pressure, and getting the ball out quickly when necessary. Yes, I feel Orton should have sensed the pressure on that and done a better job protecting the ball. It's one of the better arguments for why he's playing, a veteran's ability to read the D, be aware of where the pressure is coming from, and make good judgements about when he can wait, and when he needs to dump the ball off quickly.

 

 

I disagree. One strong case for pulling EJ was that he just wasn't making the proper reads and wasn't throwing the ball downfield. EJ not sensing pressure or having pocket presence made matters worse, but that was a symptom of the problem, not the main problem (not knowing what to do with the ball).

[Sisyphean Bills]

I disagree. One strong case for pulling EJ was that he just wasn't making the proper reads and wasn't throwing the ball downfield. EJ not sensing pressure or having pocket presence made matters worse, but that was a symptom of the problem, not the main problem (not knowing what to do with the ball).

 

Furthermore, with the addition of Downing and Hostler to the staff, there are necessarily more opinions and evaluations on how the QB position is playing this year.

[JC2002]

 

 

That's not to say Orton isn't the better choice than EJ right now, but it's an arguable viewpoint that he has yet to show he's a great improvement at QB despite the gaudy increased passing yardage. There are several key points (sacks and turnovers) where he needs to step up for us to have a chance.

 

Orton has shown hes a great improvement across the board at QB. I don't think a football person on this planet watches the last two games and says our QB play has not improved a ton .

 

The fact is that the teams are sitting on the short routes and so regardless of our Online woes Orton is gonna have to TRUST the Online and stand in there and look down field and yes sometimes a turnover a will come as a result . We know Orton can get the ball out quickly and in his first game he got the ball out quicker than any other QB in the league that week . But when the running game is non existent and we are behind we have to open it up and that comes with the risk of a sack or pressure that could result in a turnover .

 

I look at things like this below as hard lesson tools that offenses have to quickly learn from so it makes it very easy for blockers to know where he is at and as long as you know that the goal s simply to give him time

This pic is from someone on Buffalorumblings just wanted to give credit

 

 

 

This was supposed to be max protect and should've been a 25-30 yard strike instead it ends up being a 10 yard sack . When you are already living on dump offs when you call plays to go down the field by design you have got to go for it and everyone on the offense has to understand that . These are the types of things that we need to see real growth on from game to game .

 

Do you think when they are in the film room they are saying Kyle should have dumped the ball off or are they saying sorry Kyle because most here are saying Kyle should have dumped the ball off . t I think Lee Smith and the rookie Seantrel are apologizing because those are opportunities wasted simply by blown assignments and are the real difference between big time passing attacks and offense that bark but don't bite

[dave mcbride]

Orton has shown hes a great improvement across the board at QB. I don't think a football person on this planet watches the last two games and says our QB play has not improved a ton .

 

The fact is that the teams are sitting on the short routes and so regardless of our Online woes Orton is gonna have to TRUST the Online and stand in there and look down field and yes sometimes a turnover a will come as a result . We know Orton can get the ball out quickly and in his first game he got the ball out quicker than any other QB in the league that week . But when the running game is non existent and we are behind we have to open it up and that comes with the risk of a sack or pressure that could result in a turnover .

 

I look at things like this below as hard lesson tools that offenses have to quickly learn from so it makes it very easy for blockers to know where he is at and as long as you know that the goal s simply to give him time

This pic is from someone on Buffalorumblings just wanted to give credit

 

 

 

This was supposed to be max protect and should've been a 25-30 yard strike instead it ends up being a 10 yard sack . When you are already living on dump offs when you call plays to go down the field by design you have got to go for it and everyone on the offense has to understand that . These are the types of things that we need to see real growth on from game to game .

 

Do you think when they are in the film room they are saying Kyle should have dumped the ball off or are they saying sorry Kyle because most here are saying Kyle should have dumped the ball off . t I think Lee Smith and the rookie Seantrel are apologizing because those are opportunities wasted simply by blown assignments and are the real difference between big time passing attacks and offense that bark but don't bite

 

great photo. Henderson has NOT looked good lately. I realize he's a rookie and it's a growing process.

[The Wiz]

Orton has shown hes a great improvement across the board at QB. I don't think a football person on this planet watches the last two games and says our QB play has not improved a ton .

 

The fact is that the teams are sitting on the short routes and so regardless of our Online woes Orton is gonna have to TRUST the Online and stand in there and look down field and yes sometimes a turnover a will come as a result . We know Orton can get the ball out quickly and in his first game he got the ball out quicker than any other QB in the league that week . But when the running game is non existent and we are behind we have to open it up and that comes with the risk of a sack or pressure that could result in a turnover .

 

I look at things like this below as hard lesson tools that offenses have to quickly learn from so it makes it very easy for blockers to know where he is at and as long as you know that the goal s simply to give him time

This pic is from someone on Buffalorumblings just wanted to give credit

 

 

 

This was supposed to be max protect and should've been a 25-30 yard strike instead it ends up being a 10 yard sack . When you are already living on dump offs when you call plays to go down the field by design you have got to go for it and everyone on the offense has to understand that . These are the types of things that we need to see real growth on from game to game .

 

Do you think when they are in the film room they are saying Kyle should have dumped the ball off or are they saying sorry Kyle because most here are saying Kyle should have dumped the ball off . t I think Lee Smith and the rookie Seantrel are apologizing because those are opportunities wasted simply by blown assignments and are the real difference between big time passing attacks and offense that bark but don't bite

I honestly can't even think of a reason why Richardson is in front of one of the DL that Boobie is blocking.

[GG]

I honestly can't even think of a reason why Richardson is in front of one of the DL that Boobie is blocking.

 

The play design was perfect. Henderson totally blew it. If he stays where he was supposed to stay, it's at least a 20-25 yard gain for Woods or TD to Sammy. Great play call, bonehead play by 66.

[John from Riverside]

I honestly can't even think of a reason why Richardson is in front of one of the DL that Boobie is blocking.

 

This picture is so bad......omg

 

- We is there not a receiving outlet (since Lee Smith is blocking AIR) for Orton to go to?

 

- The pass blocking......jesus christ

[Rob's House]

 

 

Bowery, as you know I often agree with you, but I'm struggling to see your point here. Yes, Orton has thrown for more yards, but at the cost of serious ball-security issues. His passer rating reflects his yardage, but throwing 3 TD to 2 INTs plus a strip-sack in 2 games is NOT good. Passing yardage isn't everything. That strip sack did not pass MY eyeball test. He also has more yardage lost in sacks in 2 games (45) than EJ in 4 games (44) - and some football mavens consider sacks as almost as bad as turnovers, since the lost yardage very very often results in change of possession on downs.

 

I do agree that QB is far from the only problem on the Bills -- the offensive line is, well, offensive.

 

One reason I'm sure Marrone went with Orton is because a veteran should be faster at reading the defense and making decisions, compensating for a sub-par OL. So far, not seeing this as much as I'd like, as witness the high per-game sack yardage and turnovers.

 

Using games played gives you a 2:1 ratio. When judging sack rate you get a more accurate ratio comparing drop backs, in which case the ratio is 3:2. Orton has still taken more sacks, but the disparity is less.

[Orton's Arm]

I could be mistaken and often am - I thought the offense Hackett/Marrone installed was, in fact, supposed to be a West Coast Offense with Run and Shoot elements?

Linky1 Linky2 Linky3 Linky4

 

I have to admit, I don't understand the polarization and generalization folks here feel the need to indulge in. In the same post you talk about critiquing the play, not the player - but then you make it about the player yourself with references to "anti-Orton arguments" in critiquing that specific play. Please, you can't have it both ways. Either we're critiquing the play, and perhaps disagreeing -is the QB or the OL to blame? - or we're making it about the player - but don't complain about folks making it about the player not the play, then yourself generalize any criticism of the play into an "anti Orton argument".

 

One strong case for pulling EJ and playing Orton, is that our OL isn't up to snuff and a veteran like Orton should be able to do a better job of reading the defense, sensing pressure, and getting the ball out quickly when necessary. Yes, I feel Orton should have sensed the pressure on that and done a better job protecting the ball. It's one of the better arguments for why he's playing, a veteran's ability to read the D, be aware of where the pressure is coming from, and make good judgements about when he can wait, and when he needs to dump the ball off quickly.

 

Defending a QB's choice to stand fixed behind a collapsing OL, fail to protect the ball, and not only take a sack but take a strip because of what would happen "if he did that on every play" is a strange choice of argument. It's the QB's job to "know when to hold it, know when to fold it". An offense which is able to successfully throw downfield is not an offense where the QB tries to do that on every play, especially if trying to do that results in a turnover. Avoiding turnovers and avoiding sacks are also important keys to victory, yes?

 

That's not to say Orton isn't the better choice than EJ right now, but it's an arguable viewpoint that he has yet to show he's a great improvement at QB despite the gaudy increased passing yardage. There are several key points (sacks and turnovers) where he needs to step up for us to have a chance.

 

> I could be mistaken and often am - I thought the offense Hackett/Marrone installed was, in fact, supposed to be a West Coast Offense with Run and Shoot elements?

 

I read the links you provided. Certainly, the coaches talked about installing the West Coast offense. Or at least, elements of the West Coast offense, blended with elements of other offenses (such as Run and Shoot). But there were also indications that despite the rhetoric, the coaches had not, in fact, adopted a West Coast philosophy. For example, one of the articles stated that Marrone's offensive philosophy was heavily run-oriented. A West Coast offense isn't supposed to be heavily run oriented. Short passes are supposed to partially replace running plays; on the theory that a 6 yard pass is better than a 3 or 4 yard run.

 

One of the links you provided stated the following:

 

> Yes, at a very basic level the West Coast Offense can be described as quick, horizontal timing routes to stretch a defense horizontally, and passing to set up the run.

 

The above definition is accurate. But it isn't the offense we employ. From throwing the football around, I've learned that there are three levels of difficulty in throwing passes:

1) Hitting a stationary target

2) Hitting a target that's moving vertically

3) Hitting a target that's moving horizontally

 

If you have a guy like Joe Montana or Steve Young under center, you can expect your quarterback to hit even type 3 passes with a high level of consistency. But if your quarterback is EJ Manuel, you simply can't design an offense that lives and dies by type 3 passes, and expect to have any kind of success. From another of your links:

 

> 68.6 percent of [Manuel's] rookie season passes traveled fewer than 10 yards in the air.

 

Very little of that represented passes to targets moving horizontally. Instead, we're talking about dump-offs to RBs, screen passes, things like that. The kinds of passes Trent Edwards would throw. An offensive coordinator isn't going to humiliate his starting quarterback by saying, "Listen. The guy has no accuracy on his deep ball, and can't hit a horizontally moving target on his short to intermediate passes. So I've designed a passing attack based mostly on short throws to stationary targets." Instead, the offensive coordinator is going to say he's installing a "West Coast offense"--thereby sparing his starting QB's dignity--while actually designing an offense designed to hide his quarterback's weaknesses as much as possible. Any team trying to hide its quarterback is not running a West Coast offense.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Orton's Arm

[Sisyphean Bills]

The play design was perfect. Henderson totally blew it. If he stays where he was supposed to stay, it's at least a 20-25 yard gain for Woods or TD to Sammy. Great play call, bonehead play by 66.

 

Nobody draws up a play to keep in 7 blockers and have 3 of them stand there and watch the cheerleaders.

[K-9]

Nobody draws up a play to keep in 7 blockers and have 3 of them stand there and watch the cheerleaders.

 

Kind of defeats the entire purpose.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[The Wiz]

 

 

Kind of defeats the entire purpose.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Orton must have had his hard count be "Gisele!"

[Orton's Arm]

Nobody draws up a play to keep in 7 blockers and have 3 of them stand there and watch the cheerleaders.

 

Just to be sure no one would draw up plays like that, they got rid of the cheerleader squad.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

Just to be sure no one would draw up plays like that, they got rid of the cheerleader squad.

Its called innovation, they are finally trying to be pioneers!

[xsoldier54]

Regardless of the parts of the team that committed too many penalties (in all) multiple holds that brought back 2 or more 25+ yard rushes, and

regardless of part of the team dropped (in all) multiple passes for sure first downs.

 

so far both this season EJ and KO are even @. .500 the latter has more INT's than the prios who played 2x more games.

and YES, you sign a journeyman to be backup in case of injury.

Have you watched the last two games? If you can't see that Orton is making throws that E.J. has not or never could make, then you were watching two different games than the ones I watched. Is he perfect? Absolutely not, but if you find that guy let me know, cuz I would like to watch him play too. Is he better than E.J. ? Absolutely 100% unequivocally yes. That we are even discussing this makes me wonder if Bills fans are even watching the games.

[garbag3man]

Have you watched the last two games? If you can't see that Orton is making throws that E.J. has not or never could make, then you were watching two different games than the ones I watched. Is he perfect? Absolutely not, but if you find that guy let me know, cuz I would like to watch him play too. Is he better than E.J. ? Absolutely 100% unequivocally yes. That we are even discussing this makes me wonder if Bills fans are even watching the games.

 

The majority of people here (in my opinion) don't think that KO is a more polished, more confident QB who is making better throws this season than EJ did in the HOU or SD games.

 

I think you make yourself sound silly, and your point is less valid, when you say things like "making throws that E.J. has not or never could make" because that is just wrong.

 

Did EJ have some bad games, and make some TERRIBLE decisions? Of course he did.

Does he need a LOT of work on his accuracy? Of course he does.

Has he shown that he can make most of the throws that you would want him to be able to make? Of course he has. For evidence, look at the bomb he threw to Watkins in the SD game. Or the fact that through 2 games this season, we were all talking about how he has made a big leap in throwing to a spot, instead of waiting until a WR was WIDE open.

 

You are correct, KO gives us the best chance to win now. I personally think that EJ has what it takes to be a solid QB, and sitting will be great for him. That being said, saying things like you did above, makes most rational people who have watched the games completely dismiss whatever point you are making.

[Buffaloed in Pa]

Orton after two games 90.9 QBR rating. Philip Rivers this year leads with a 87.1 next Peyton Manning with a 85.2. Just saying Ortons been looking good so far.

 

Orton after two games 90.9 QBR rating. Philip Rivers this year leads with a 87.1 next Peyton Manning with a 85.2. Just saying Ortons been looking good so far. E.J. was a 19.6