ricojes Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 I think Orton is a good mentor, it's just a year too late.
Orton's Arm Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) In an ideal world we probably would've been better off keeping Fitz for an extra year or so and having EJ watch from the bench his first season (IMO). EJ never had competition his first season and was essentially given the starting gig. He played OK last season, but he never really had games where you thought "damn, I'm excited for next season b/c this guy has given us flashes of brilliance"; it was more like "EJ was OK but he definitely needs to take a step forward this season". Through 4 games that step forward didn't happen. In fact you can argue that he took a step back. A step back from just OK is bad. Add in the change in ownership and everyone in the front office/coaching staff probably went into a panic b/c their jobs may very well be on the line this season. As for the coaching staff (marrone) not having a backbone, I see where you're coming from. But at the same time, we've been hearing all season that the talent is here, NOW. Not next season, but now. So the change to Orton shouldn't be that much of a surprise. If the organization feels this team has the talent in place to make a run for a wild card, then make the move and forget about EJ's feelings/psyche. It's certainly cliché, but if EJ can't handle being benched, then he probably won't be able to handle the ups/downs of the NFL very long anyway. cliche * was the word I was trying to use, not sure why it did that "cliché" > Add in the change in ownership and everyone in the front office/coaching staff probably went into a panic b/c their jobs may very well be on the line this season. There's that. It's also worth remembering that Whaley used two first round picks to acquire Watkins. If your starting quarterback almost never throws the ball more than 5 yards past the line of scrimmage, and if he's often inaccurate, it can be very difficult to evaluate whether Watkins is or isn't the football player we were hoping for. Putting Orton in at QB allowed the Bills to accurately assess Watkins--something they couldn't do with Manuel under center. If Watkins becomes a star, Whaley will be able to point to him as a success to balance out some of his other failures. I realize the decision to bench Manuel was made by Marrone, not Whaley. But I don't think Whaley exerted any pressure on Marrone to keep Manuel in there. Partly because that's not what a GM is supposed to do, and partly because Whaley needs the Watkins trade to have been a success to retain his own job security. Edited October 15, 2014 by Orton's Arm
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 I think Orton is a good mentor, it's just a year too late. I thought the rumor is that Orton is kinda of a douche. I could be wrong but I don't really remember him talking to EJ when EJ was starting. I don't think him and Romo had a good relationship. Neither did him and Tebow. Orton is a very good backup QB though.
A Dog Named Kelso Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 careful with all of those you's you are posting. you made a few assumptions I want to see / know if EJ can succeed now because I know KO isn't the long term answer. > I don't think I've posted much about play calling (other than rotating 3 RB's) and I highly doubt I used Hackett's name outside of a quote I said I don't mind KO as a backup. there is a big difference there. My apologies for the yous Regardless of its result to the rest of the team? A backup for what purpose? Only for injury?
The Wiz Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) I thought the rumor is that Orton is kinda of a douche. I could be wrong but I don't really remember him talking to EJ when EJ was starting. I don't think him and Romo had a good relationship. Neither did him and Tebow. Orton is a very good backup QB though. I actually recall Joe B. (I think) talking about how the two of them couldn't have been further apart when EJ was starting the season and Orton wasn't even looking at the defensive break down print outs. I forget if it was after the Chargers or Houston game. Edited October 15, 2014 by The Wiz
ricojes Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 I thought the rumor is that Orton is kinda of a douche. I could be wrong but I don't really remember him talking to EJ when EJ was starting. I don't think him and Romo had a good relationship. Neither did him and Tebow. Orton is a very good backup QB though. Ej can still learn a lot from watching. Orton doesn't need to hold EJ's hand, just show him how a professional commands the huddle, leads the team, practices....yada yada yada...
bobobonators Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) > Add in the change in ownership and everyone in the front office/coaching staff probably went into a panic b/c their jobs may very well be on the line this season. There's that. It's also worth remembering that Whaley used two first round picks to acquire Watkins. If your starting quarterback almost never throws the ball more than 5 yards past the line of scrimmage, and if he's often inaccurate, it can be very difficult to evaluate whether Watkins is or isn't the football player we were hoping for. Putting Orton in at QB allowed the Bills to accurately assess Watkins--something they couldn't do with Manuel under center. If Watkins becomes a star, Whaley will be able to point to him as a success to balance out some of his other failures. I realize the decision to bench Manuel was made by Marrone, not Whaley. But I don't think Whaley exerted any pressure on Marrone to keep Manuel in there. Partly because that's not what a GM is supposed to do, and partly because Whaley needs the Watkins trade to have been a success to retain his own job security. I agree, and not to get off topic, but I wonder how much of that is going on in NY w/ Geno, Idzik and Rex. My opinion, there's no way Rex feels Geno gives them the best chance to win every week but probably feels pressure from Idzik to start Geno. From Idzik's perspective it's the perfect scenario: if Geno does well, they have their QB; if Geno bombs, Rex is fired and Idzik has a fall-guy and they can move on from Geno after saying they gave him a full two seasons (at Rex's expense). Edited October 15, 2014 by bobobonators
A Dog Named Kelso Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 I agree, and not to get off topic, but I wonder how much of that is going on in NY w/ Geno, Idzik and Rex. My opinion, there's no way Rex feels Geno gives them the best chance to win every week but probably feels pressure from Idzik to start Geno. From Idzik's perspective it's the perfect scenario: if Geno does well, they have their QB; if Geno bombs, Rex is fired and Idzik has a fall-guy and they can move on from Geno after saying they gave him a full two seasons (at Rex's expense). And the Fans'
garbag3man Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Ej can still learn a lot from watching. Orton doesn't need to hold EJ's hand, just show him how a professional commands the huddle, leads the team, practices....yada yada yada... Not to mention, seeing this all from a guy who has been benched a number of times has to be a comfort to a guy who needed a bit of a confidence boost at some point. No one here questions that EJ needs to work on a number of things, and that he is a highly unfinished project. That being said, a few important things to note: 1. EJ and KO are both .500 in the only stat that any fan on this board should actually care about. 2. EJ, through the first two weeks was completing 60-70% of his passes, and had a QB rating of about 95. 3. In games that EJ throws fewer than 30 passes in his career, he is 5-1 with a 128.95 QBR (and I think we all can agree that a young QB who is an unfinished project should only be throwing < 30 passes a game). Like a lot of the people who are EJ supporters have said, this will most likely be good for him (a chance to get his head right, and watch the way that the team wanted him to do last year before Kolb got concussion number 1234123412534345 of his career). I personally think EJ has what it takes to be a VERY good QB in the NFL, and he needs to get out of his own way. But he also needs an OC that allows him to progress the way that young QB's should (Russell Wilson has only thrown 30+ 7 times in his first two seasons, and had some of his worst QBRs in those games) NOTE: I am not saying that EJ is RW, just an interesting point in differing opinions on developing young QBs.
Rob's House Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 I thought the rumor is that Orton is kinda of a douche. I could be wrong but I don't really remember him talking to EJ when EJ was starting. I don't think him and Romo had a good relationship. Neither did him and Tebow. Orton is a very good backup QB though. The rumor is that Orton's the man, Homo's a douche, and Tebow rolls a little to holy for Orton's hedonistic ways. And it had to be awkward kicking it with EJ knowing he was there to take his job.
Orton's Arm Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Not to mention, seeing this all from a guy who has been benched a number of times has to be a comfort to a guy who needed a bit of a confidence boost at some point. No one here questions that EJ needs to work on a number of things, and that he is a highly unfinished project. That being said, a few important things to note: 1. EJ and KO are both .500 in the only stat that any fan on this board should actually care about. 2. EJ, through the first two weeks was completing 60-70% of his passes, and had a QB rating of about 95. 3. In games that EJ throws fewer than 30 passes in his career, he is 5-1 with a 128.95 QBR (and I think we all can agree that a young QB who is an unfinished project should only be throwing < 30 passes a game). Like a lot of the people who are EJ supporters have said, this will most likely be good for him (a chance to get his head right, and watch the way that the team wanted him to do last year before Kolb got concussion number 1234123412534345 of his career). I personally think EJ has what it takes to be a VERY good QB in the NFL, and he needs to get out of his own way. But he also needs an OC that allows him to progress the way that young QB's should (Russell Wilson has only thrown 30+ 7 times in his first two seasons, and had some of his worst QBRs in those games) NOTE: I am not saying that EJ is RW, just an interesting point in differing opinions on developing young QBs. > EJ and KO are both .500 in the only stat that any fan on this board should actually care about. I care about winning percentage when evaluating the team as a whole. But I wouldn't use it to evaluate individual players. If (for example) a LT hasn't allowed a sack or pressure all season, and is blowing defenders up in the run game, I don't need to know his team's winning percentage to know he's a good player. You could say the same thing about a player at any other position. That specifically includes quarterback. > 2. EJ, through the first two weeks was completing 60-70% of his passes, and had a QB rating of about 95. Both completion percentage and quarterback rating can be inflated by attempting a lot of short, high percentage passes. Given that Manuel almost never attempts passes more than 5 yards past the line of scrimmage, I think it's safe to say his quarterback rating overstates his play. This season, both his QBR and his air yards per attempt are among the weakest in the league. (31st best IIRC.) > 3. In games that EJ throws fewer than 30 passes in his career, he is 5-1 with a 128.95 QBR If the Bills don't ask Manuel to attempt a lot of passes, it generally means that the running game is successful and the defense is playing well. I'd expect the team to win a lot of games under those circumstances regardless of the quality of quarterback play. As an aside, it's easy to confuse quarterback rating with QBR. Quarterback rating is an old way of measuring a quarterback's performance. Kelly Holcomb and John Elway had nearly identical quarterback ratings. There are better tools available for measuring a QB's performance. QBR is a relatively new stat; which measures a QB's performance on a scale of 0 - 100. Given that a QBR of 128.95 is impossible, I think you meant to write that Manuel had a quarterback rating of 128.95 in the games you mentioned.
garbag3man Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 > EJ and KO are both .500 in the only stat that any fan on this board should actually care about. I care about winning percentage when evaluating the team as a whole. But I wouldn't use it to evaluate individual players. If (for example) a LT hasn't allowed a sack or pressure all season, and is blowing defenders up in the run game, I don't need to know his team's winning percentage to know he's a good player. You could say the same thing about a player at any other position. That specifically includes quarterback. > 2. EJ, through the first two weeks was completing 60-70% of his passes, and had a QB rating of about 95. Both completion percentage and quarterback rating can be inflated by attempting a lot of short, high percentage passes. Given that Manuel almost never attempts passes more than 5 yards past the line of scrimmage, I think it's safe to say his quarterback rating overstates his play. This season, both his QBR and his air yards per attempt are among the weakest in the league. (31st best IIRC.) > 3. In games that EJ throws fewer than 30 passes in his career, he is 5-1 with a 128.95 QBR If the Bills don't ask Manuel to attempt a lot of passes, it generally means that the running game is successful and the defense is playing well. I'd expect the team to win a lot of games under those circumstances regardless of the quality of quarterback play. As an aside, it's easy to confuse quarterback rating with QBR. Quarterback rating is an old way of measuring a quarterback's performance. Kelly Holcomb and John Elway had nearly identical quarterback ratings. There are better tools available for measuring a QB's performance. QBR is a relatively new stat; which measures a QB's performance on a scale of 0 - 100. Given that a QBR of 128.95 is impossible, I think you meant to write that Manuel had a quarterback rating of 128.95 in the games you mentioned. QBR actually still stands for QuarterBack Rating Total QBR is the ESPN stat they made up to make Tebow look like a better QB. Different stat, abbreviated "TQBR"
K-9 Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 QBR actually still stands for QuarterBack Rating Total QBR is the ESPN stat they made up to make Tebow look like a better QB. Different stat, abbreviated "TQBR" I'm still waiting for someone to explain how Stafford had a better QBR than Orton in the Detroit game. I'll hang up and listen. GO BILLS!!!
Orton's Arm Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) QBR actually still stands for QuarterBack Rating Total QBR is the ESPN stat they made up to make Tebow look like a better QB. Different stat, abbreviated "TQBR" Your post is partially correct. Total quarterback rating is indeed a stat created by ESPN. However, total quarterback rating is normally abbreviated QBR. If you don't believe me, click here. You'll notice that there's a column labeled "rate" which indicates Orton's quarterback rating. Right next to it there's a column labeled QBR which indicates his total quarterback rating. If you want to see those same total quarterback rating (QBR) stats from ESPN itself, you can go here. Notice they use QBR to refer to total quarterback rating. Yes, they should have abbreviated total quarterback rating as TQBR. That would have avoided confusion with the old quarterback rating measure. But for some unfathomable reason, they chose to abbreviate total quarterback rating as QBR. QBR always means total quarterback rating (the ESPN stat), and never refers to the old quarterback rating formula. Edited October 15, 2014 by Orton's Arm
26CornerBlitz Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 @ChrisTrapasso #Bills podcast with @BradRiter and yours truly. RT @TrendingBuffalo: Orton is Fitz again, right? http://www.trendingb...witter …
Greg F Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 I'm still waiting for someone to explain how Stafford had a better QBR than Orton in the Detroit game. It is the nature of a sales gimmick. Not necessarily accurate but it got your attention.
FireChan Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) I'm still waiting for someone to explain how Stafford had a better QBR than Orton in the Detroit game. I'll hang up and listen. GO BILLS!!! Less pick-sixes; and both QB's out their team in a position to win at the end? Edited October 16, 2014 by FireChan
dave mcbride Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 Less pick-sixes; and both QB's out their team in a position to win at the end? Yep - Stafford did what he had to do at the end.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 If you can't see Orton is an upgrade over EJ's play you are looking at the wrong stats. Over 300 yards last week and 299 yesterday 91 passer rating (I think I read somewhere). Yes he is making some mistakes, almost Fitz like ones kind of but he is better than either Fitz or EJ. Time will show this more, I am sure of that. Our QB wasn't the big problem yesterday, the Oline, the refs, playing maybe the best QB of all time.... yes. Orton passes the eyeball test so far IMHO. I am not saying he is great mind you or even that good but he is okay. And yes he had a bit of an off day. Bowery, as you know I often agree with you, but I'm struggling to see your point here. Yes, Orton has thrown for more yards, but at the cost of serious ball-security issues. His passer rating reflects his yardage, but throwing 3 TD to 2 INTs plus a strip-sack in 2 games is NOT good. Passing yardage isn't everything. That strip sack did not pass MY eyeball test. He also has more yardage lost in sacks in 2 games (45) than EJ in 4 games (44) - and some football mavens consider sacks as almost as bad as turnovers, since the lost yardage very very often results in change of possession on downs. I do agree that QB is far from the only problem on the Bills -- the offensive line is, well, offensive. One reason I'm sure Marrone went with Orton is because a veteran should be faster at reading the defense and making decisions, compensating for a sub-par OL. So far, not seeing this as much as I'd like, as witness the high per-game sack yardage and turnovers.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 I generally agree with all of this. EJ did have 112 qb rating in the preseason though. But Fitz would have be the perfect mentor. Not having a QB coach and leaving it up to Hackett is such a joke. Again, if EJ was failing with a respected NFL offensive mind, it's one thing. But given that the oline and SPiller are all regressing under Hackett, I have a ton of questions. Is there a worst OC in the NFL than Hackett? I'm reminded of Alex Smith, who looked like a total bust who would never make it in the NFL - until Harbaugh took over. And I have the same questions about Hackett as OC. I feel Hackett is to Marrone as Edwards/Wannstache were to Gailey - the icebergs that will sink his ship.
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