Please tell me why Kyle Orton is not the long term answer ?

[Alphadawg7]

Bottom line on Orton...

 

Offense sucked weeks 2-7 with both Orton and EJ. One game of 4 TD's when our defense got us 6 turnovers does not erase his previous outings where the offense was inconsistent and Orton was inconsistent. He was 2 plays away from starting off 0-3.

 

Orton is the right guy to start for us now, but he has not played nearly at the level of his mythology on this board suggests. He is already signed for 2 years and his performance is about on par with what he is making. The Bills would be stupid to throw more money at him now, or even after the season. Plenty of QB's have one season where they look the part and flop the next...see Foles and McCown this year from last year as recent examples. Ortons body of work is mediocre at best, making him a great backup but a below average starter.

 

I am not slamming the guy, just being realistic about what is going on with this offense on the field. Even with 4TDs, we had NINE 3 and outs. We almost let the Jets back in the game because the offense couldn't move the ball, but luckily our D wound up getting 3 more turnovers to stop that.

 

Its not all Orton, the OL has not been good and the run game is non existent. But at the end of the day, this offense isn't playing at a high enough level to even begin to talk about long term deals.

 

I will say the same thing I said when we were 4-0 with Trent...if this QB and offense keep playing this way, we will NOT make the playoffs. This offense needs to improve still. And I hope it does...would love nothing more than to have our QB position settled, but its WAY too early to even think about this guy as a long term answer. As we sit right now, EJ needs to figure this game out by next year or we need to draft a QB early in the draft next year. If Orton can up his game and lead us to the playoffs, then he is the guy for the foreseeable future (and rightfully so) and OL is the first pick we make next year. Until Orton proves it on the field and gets us to the playoffs we will still need to find a QB of the future.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Alphadawg7

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

what he said. ^ now maybe we can stop beating this dead horse

[A Dog Named Kelso]

Bottom line on Orton...

 

Offense sucked weeks 2-7 with both Orton and EJ. One game of 4 TD's when our defense got us 6 turnovers does not erase his previous outings where the offense was inconsistent and Orton was inconsistent. He was 2 plays away from starting off 0-3.

 

Orton is the right guy to start for us now, but he has not played nearly at the level of his mythology on this board suggests. He is already signed for 2 years and his performance is about on par with what he is making. The Bills would be stupid to throw more money at him now, or even after the season. Plenty of QB's have one season where they look the part and flop the next...see Foles and McCown this year from last year as recent examples. Ortons body of work is mediocre at best, making him a great backup but a below average starter.

 

I am not slamming the guy, just being realistic about what is going on with this offense on the field. Even with 4TDs, we had NINE 3 and outs. We almost let the Jets back in the game because the offense couldn't move the ball, but luckily our D wound up getting 3 more turnovers to stop that.

 

Its not all Orton, the OL has not been good and the run game is non existent. But at the end of the day, this offense isn't playing at a high enough level to even begin to talk about long term deals.

 

I will say the same thing I said when we were 4-0 with Trent...if this QB and offense keep playing this way, we will NOT make the playoffs. This offense needs to improve still. And I hope it does...would love nothing more than to have our QB position settled, but its WAY too early to even think about this guy as a long term answer. As we sit right now, EJ needs to figure this game out by next year or we need to draft a QB early in the draft next year. If Orton can up his game and lead us to the playoffs, then he is the guy for the foreseeable future (and rightfully so) and OL is the first pick we make next year. Until Orton proves it on the field and gets us to the playoffs we will still need to find a QB of the future.

 

I agree with most of the outside of game 6. They played well in the second half of the NE game.

Edited November 6, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso

[Orton's Arm]

Bottom line on Orton...

 

Offense sucked weeks 2-7 with both Orton and EJ. One game of 4 TD's when our defense got us 6 turnovers does not erase his previous outings where the offense was inconsistent and Orton was inconsistent. He was 2 plays away from starting off 0-3.

 

Orton is the right guy to start for us now, but he has not played nearly at the level of his mythology on this board suggests. He is already signed for 2 years and his performance is about on par with what he is making. The Bills would be stupid to throw more money at him now, or even after the season. Plenty of QB's have one season where they look the part and flop the next...see Foles and McCown this year from last year as recent examples. Ortons body of work is mediocre at best, making him a great backup but a below average starter.

 

I am not slamming the guy, just being realistic about what is going on with this offense on the field. Even with 4TDs, we had NINE 3 and outs. We almost let the Jets back in the game because the offense couldn't move the ball, but luckily our D wound up getting 3 more turnovers to stop that.

 

Its not all Orton, the OL has not been good and the run game is non existent. But at the end of the day, this offense isn't playing at a high enough level to even begin to talk about long term deals.

 

I will say the same thing I said when we were 4-0 with Trent...if this QB and offense keep playing this way, we will NOT make the playoffs. This offense needs to improve still. And I hope it does...would love nothing more than to have our QB position settled, but its WAY too early to even think about this guy as a long term answer. As we sit right now, EJ needs to figure this game out by next year or we need to draft a QB early in the draft next year. If Orton can up his game and lead us to the playoffs, then he is the guy for the foreseeable future (and rightfully so) and OL is the first pick we make next year. Until Orton proves it on the field and gets us to the playoffs we will still need to find a QB of the future.

 

> his performance is about on par with what he is making.

 

I disagree. This season, Orton is producing the NFL's 10th-best air yards per attempt. His pay is not consistent with a performance like that.

 

> Ortons body of work is mediocre at best

 

Over the last five years, there was only one time when Orton averaged less than 7 yards per attempt. (The Denver half of his 2011 season.) Fitz's usual average with the Bills was 6.8 yards per attempt. Trent Edwards' career average is 6.5 yards per attempt; Tom Brady's is 7.5.

 

> Even with 4TDs, we had NINE 3 and outs.

 

Hackett deserves most of the blame for that. He called run, run, pass about 2/3 of the time he had an opportunity to do so. On a day when the running game was averaging 2 yards a carry--and the passing attack was averaging 14 yards per attempt--run, run, pass is the sort of play calling you'd expect from someone perfectly content to go three and out.

 

> Until Orton proves it on the field and gets us to the playoffs we will still need to find a QB of the future.

 

There is nothing which would even remotely suggest Whaley is good at evaluating QB talent. For better or worse, Kyle Orton is almost certainly the very best quarterback Whaley will acquire for a very long time. The Bills' two choices are to either build around Orton, or replace Whaley with a GM capable of choosing better quarterbacks than Kolb or Manuel.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Orton's Arm

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

[bobobonators]

Im really liking what Orton has done for us this yr but i would wait to sign him to an extension.

 

[Big Gun]

Bottom line on Orton...

 

Offense sucked weeks 2-7 with both Orton and EJ. One game of 4 TD's when our defense got us 6 turnovers does not erase his previous outings where the offense was inconsistent and Orton was inconsistent. He was 2 plays away from starting off 0-3.

 

Orton is the right guy to start for us now, but he has not played nearly at the level of his mythology on this board suggests. He is already signed for 2 years and his performance is about on par with what he is making. The Bills would be stupid to throw more money at him now, or even after the season. Plenty of QB's have one season where they look the part and flop the next...see Foles and McCown this year from last year as recent examples. Ortons body of work is mediocre at best, making him a great backup but a below average starter.

 

I am not slamming the guy, just being realistic about what is going on with this offense on the field. Even with 4TDs, we had NINE 3 and outs. We almost let the Jets back in the game because the offense couldn't move the ball, but luckily our D wound up getting 3 more turnovers to stop that.

 

Its not all Orton, the OL has not been good and the run game is non existent. But at the end of the day, this offense isn't playing at a high enough level to even begin to talk about long term deals.

 

I will say the same thing I said when we were 4-0 with Trent...if this QB and offense keep playing this way, we will NOT make the playoffs. This offense needs to improve still. And I hope it does...would love nothing more than to have our QB position settled, but its WAY too early to even think about this guy as a long term answer. As we sit right now, EJ needs to figure this game out by next year or we need to draft a QB early in the draft next year. If Orton can up his game and lead us to the playoffs, then he is the guy for the foreseeable future (and rightfully so) and OL is the first pick we make next year. Until Orton proves it on the field and gets us to the playoffs we will still need to find a QB of the future.

 

IMO you couldn't be more wrong about Orton. 1100+ Yards, 9 TDs, 3 Ints, 104 QBR, 67% Comp, 8 Yards per attempt all after only 4 games and being with the team for what, 3 months, maybe. You want to chop him down and say he is inconsistent, and not playing at a high level. 3-1 and his stats say otherwise, what kind of stats would you like to see if this isn't good enough for you? Is anything good enough for you?

 

How about giving the opponents defenses some credit for being good. From what I could find at the time the Bills played them, the other teams pass defenses were ranked, Mia-14, SD-13, Hou-14, Det-5, NE-3, Minn-9, NYJ-14, and KC-1 against the pass. All top half of the league, what do you expect from the QB each week? 50 points, 400 yards, 4 TDs, 130 QBR, 80% Comp, 12 Yards per attempt? C'mon man! I think you just like to argue!

[bobobonators]

IMO you couldn't be more wrong about Orton. 1100+ Yards, 9 TDs, 3 Ints, 104 QBR, 67% Comp, 8 Yards per attempt all after only 4 games and being with the team for what, 3 months, maybe. You want to chop him down and say he is inconsistent, and not playing at a high level. 3-1 and his stats say otherwise, what kind of stats would you like to see if this isn't good enough for you? Is anything good enough for you?

 

How about giving the opponents defenses some credit for being good. From what I could find at the time the Bills played them, the other teams pass defenses were ranked, Mia-14, SD-13, Hou-14, Det-5, NE-3, Minn-9, NYJ-14, and KC-1 against the pass. All top half of the league, what do you expect from the QB each week? 50 points, 400 yards, 4 TDs, 130 QBR, 80% Comp, 12 Yards per attempt? C'mon man! I think you just like to argue!

 

He's also been missing two huge weapons for 1.5 of those games in CJ and FJ.

[PeoriaAZBillsFan]

IMO you couldn't be more wrong about Orton. 1100+ Yards, 9 TDs, 3 Ints, 104 QBR, 67% Comp, 8 Yards per attempt all after only 4 games and being with the team for what, 3 months, maybe. You want to chop him down and say he is inconsistent, and not playing at a high level. 3-1 and his stats say otherwise, what kind of stats would you like to see if this isn't good enough for you? Is anything good enough for you?

 

How about giving the opponents defenses some credit for being good. From what I could find at the time the Bills played them, the other teams pass defenses were ranked, Mia-14, SD-13, Hou-14, Det-5, NE-3, Minn-9, NYJ-14, and KC-1 against the pass. All top half of the league, what do you expect from the QB each week? 50 points, 400 yards, 4 TDs, 130 QBR, 80% Comp, 12 Yards per attempt? C'mon man! I think you just like to argue!

 

Take out the games against MIA, SD, & HOU as he didn't play vs those teams and it makes what he's done even more impressive. I personally also think we beat SD & HOU if he's playing those games.

Edited November 6, 2014 by PeoriaAZBillsFan

[MRW]

Take out the games against MIA, SD, & HOU as he didn't play vs those teams and it makes what he's done even more impressive. I personally also think we beat SD & HOU if he's playing those games.

I think SD would still have been a loss, that was a total team beatdown, but vs. Houston I'm almost certain he would've made the difference.

[Rob's House]

Bottom line on Orton...

 

Offense sucked weeks 2-7 with both Orton and EJ. One game of 4 TD's when our defense got us 6 turnovers does not erase his previous outings where the offense was inconsistent and Orton was inconsistent. He was 2 plays away from starting off 0-3.

 

Orton is the right guy to start for us now, but he has not played nearly at the level of his mythology on this board suggests. He is already signed for 2 years and his performance is about on par with what he is making. The Bills would be stupid to throw more money at him now, or even after the season. Plenty of QB's have one season where they look the part and flop the next...see Foles and McCown this year from last year as recent examples. Ortons body of work is mediocre at best, making him a great backup but a below average starter.

 

I am not slamming the guy, just being realistic about what is going on with this offense on the field. Even with 4TDs, we had NINE 3 and outs. We almost let the Jets back in the game because the offense couldn't move the ball, but luckily our D wound up getting 3 more turnovers to stop that.

 

Its not all Orton, the OL has not been good and the run game is non existent. But at the end of the day, this offense isn't playing at a high enough level to even begin to talk about long term deals.

 

I will say the same thing I said when we were 4-0 with Trent...if this QB and offense keep playing this way, we will NOT make the playoffs. This offense needs to improve still. And I hope it does...would love nothing more than to have our QB position settled, but its WAY too early to even think about this guy as a long term answer. As we sit right now, EJ needs to figure this game out by next year or we need to draft a QB early in the draft next year. If Orton can up his game and lead us to the playoffs, then he is the guy for the foreseeable future (and rightfully so) and OL is the first pick we make next year. Until Orton proves it on the field and gets us to the playoffs we will still need to find a QB of the future.

 

I agree with this more or less, but I'm choosing to lean to the optimistic side for now. What could have been changed in season has been and all we can do is hope the offense comes together. We'll know what we need to know by the time we need to know it. Til then I'm going to believe Kyle Orton is the greatest thing since canned beer.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

> Until Orton proves it on the field and gets us to the playoffs we will still need to find a QB of the future.

 

There is nothing which would even remotely suggest Whaley is good at evaluating QB talent. For better or worse, Kyle Orton is almost certainly the very best quarterback Whaley will acquire for a very long time. The Bills' two choices are to either build around Orton, or replace Whaley with a GM capable of choosing better quarterbacks than Kolb or Manuel.

 

I think the sample size from Orton has been too small to say much of anything definitive. Just gotta' let it play out and see how teams adjust to what he is putting on tape. If they can cut him back down to size with adjustements they likely will in this second half of the season when the Bills have so many games against teams that see themselves as in contention for the playoffs. These guys are going to be out for blood, not playing vanilla to evaluate their rosters for next season.

 

What you say about Whaley rings true though. He was the guy that should have been banging on the table for Kaep or Dalton or Russell Wilson and those picks just didn't happen. It's hard to envision a GM who can't find QB talent sustaining for long without being lucky enough to have a gem drop in his lap. A 32 year old Kyle Orton isn't likely to be that gem but 6 opponents with winning records in the next 8 games should make that a little more clear.

[Big Gun]

I think the sample size from Orton has been too small to say much of anything definitive. Just gotta' let it play out and see how teams adjust to what he is putting on tape. If they can cut him back down to size with adjustements they likely will in this second half of the season when the Bills have so many games against teams that see themselves as in contention for the playoffs. These guys are going to be out for blood, not playing vanilla to evaluate their rosters for next season.

 

What you say about Whaley rings true though. He was the guy that should have been banging on the table for Kaep or Dalton or Russell Wilson and those picks just didn't happen. It's hard to envision a GM who can't find QB talent sustaining for long without being lucky enough to have a gem drop in his lap. A 32 year old Kyle Orton isn't likely to be that gem but 6 opponents with winning records in the next 8 games should make that a little more clear.

 

Right, because when the season starts everyone plays a vanilla defense! Oy, where does this stuff come from!

[Ted William's frozen head]

6 opponents with winning records in the next 8 games should make that a little more clear.

Orton plays with hunger. So did Fitz until we gave him lifetime security w/that $60M. deal. Orton can wait for a better deal.

Look what happened in S.D. w/Donald Butler. $28M. in guaranteed $$$$$$$$$$........Can't get it done anymore. He's basically saying 'Cut me. PLEASE!'

A life of leisure, instead of a life in PAIN. Imagine.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Ted William's frozen head

[Doc]

I think SD would still have been a loss, that was a total team beatdown, but vs. Houston I'm almost certain he would've made the difference.

Yep. He probably would have changed from passing so much to running more.

[Orton's Arm]

Orton plays with hunger. So did Fitz until we gave him lifetime security w/that $60M. deal. Orton can wait for a better deal.

Look what happened in S.D. w/Donald Butler. $28M. in guaranteed $$$$$$$$$$........Can't get it done anymore. He's basically saying 'Cut me. PLEASE!'

A life of leisure, instead of a life in PAIN. Imagine.

 

Fitz was never particularly accurate when throwing the ball. When Fitz appeared to be playing "well," it was because Gailey had devised an offense to mask his lack of accuracy. Gailey's offense relied on Fitz to make very good reads both pre- and post-snap--something at which Fitz was good. The throws themselves were generally fairly easy.

 

The Bengals were the first team to catch up with Gailey's offense. (That happened before Fitz signed his monster extension.) They demonstrated the correct way to beat Fitz. The Bills must have seen that game as an exception to the norm. (Or else they wouldn't have given him that big contract extension.)

 

After Fitz signed that big extension, other teams followed the Bengals' example. That was no different than when teams learned that the correct way to defend Losman is to double cover Lee Evans, and put eight in the box to take away the run. Or when they learned the solution to Drew Bledsoe was pressure up the middle. The fact teams figured out a solution to Fitz doesn't mean he stopped trying hard. It means that Fitz was never going to be a great quarterback, no matter how hard he tried. He just didn't have the ability to play well after defenses figured him out.

 

In contrast to the above, I don't see anything particularly brilliant or gimmicky that Hackett is doing to make Orton look better than he really is. Orton is reading the field well, making good decisions, and throwing the ball accurately. Granted, he's not elite in any of those areas. But he's a significant upgrade over what we're used to, and is a better quarterback than Fitz.

[K-9]

> his performance is about on par with what he is making.

 

I disagree. This season, Orton is producing the NFL's 10th-best air yards per attempt. His pay is not consistent with a performance like that.

 

Just stop with the air yards per attempt stat like it's something that Orton and his agent are gonna cite when they negotiate a contract. It's laughable.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Alphadawg7]

IMO you couldn't be more wrong about Orton. 1100+ Yards, 9 TDs, 3 Ints, 104 QBR, 67% Comp, 8 Yards per attempt all after only 4 games and being with the team for what, 3 months, maybe. You want to chop him down and say he is inconsistent, and not playing at a high level. 3-1 and his stats say otherwise, what kind of stats would you like to see if this isn't good enough for you? Is anything good enough for you?

 

How about giving the opponents defenses some credit for being good. From what I could find at the time the Bills played them, the other teams pass defenses were ranked, Mia-14, SD-13, Hou-14, Det-5, NE-3, Minn-9, NYJ-14, and KC-1 against the pass. All top half of the league, what do you expect from the QB each week? 50 points, 400 yards, 4 TDs, 130 QBR, 80% Comp, 12 Yards per attempt? C'mon man! I think you just like to argue!

 

No offense, but his on field performance says otherwise. He was terrible against Detroit, and we lost that game except no one told the Detroit kicker. He ended the NE game with an INT when we had a chance to tie and the offense wasn't good most that game. He had a terrible game against a woeful 1-6 Vikings that had a rookie QB making his first road start of his career in Buffalo. It took a last second heroic, set up by the D, to steal that win. Against the Jets, his stats look gaudy, but he was only 10-17...the only thing about his game against the Jets was the 4 TDs, but that was more to do with the defense and Sammy taking a short pass to the house. It all counts in the stat column, but it doesn't properly reflect how frequently the offense stalled, as it does every week.

 

You can quote his stats, but you ignore the key stats...we are near the bottom of the league in every relevant offensive category, especially 3rd down. Going into last week, he was the 31st ranked QB using QBR (much more accurate than the old rating). He has not been very efficient on the field and woefully inaccurate one drive and on the money the next. He has not been consistent in any one game yet.

 

If anyone thinks this offense is playing with consistency then you are just a stat checker or something, because watching this team go 3 and out constantly and have drives stall constantly is about the only thing consistent with the offense. Its not all his fault, Hackett sucks, OL sucks, and Run game has been a ghost. But none of that excuses the bad sacks, turnovers, missed receivers, etc the plague his inconsistency.

 

I get it, QB play has been horrid here, so as soon as we have someone show some signs of life at it people think its better than what it is (see Fitz). I have nothing against him, hell I hope he becomes great. But the hard truth right now is that the level our offense is playing at will make it very hard to win against good teams and we have several on our schedule still.

 

Now, having said all that, I get Orton didn't have the preseason and such and has room to improve. I am in no way condemning him...what I am saying is that if he does not find a way to protect the ball, play with more consistency, and take less bad sacks then this team will not make the playoffs. If he does improve those areas and leads us to the playoffs, then maybe next year they can talk extension. But right now it would be stupid...this offense has had one good week (and even that week is debatable as 6 turnovers for the D will help any offense look good) since week 2.

 

I agree with this more or less, but I'm choosing to lean to the optimistic side for now. What could have been changed in season has been and all we can do is hope the offense comes together. We'll know what we need to know by the time we need to know it. Til then I'm going to believe Kyle Orton is the greatest thing since canned beer.

 

I have come to be more optimistic as well, but I am still a realist. I am not going to over inflate the body of work so far...its been an improvement over EJ, but its still just been ok for me. I hope it keeps getting better and he leads us to the division title and the playoffs.

[BADOLBILZ]

Right, because when the season starts everyone plays a vanilla defense! Oy, where does this stuff come from!

 

I forgot that Orton started the season as the Bills QB.

 

He's played in just 4 games, two against teams that were well out of contention and trying to develop struggling young QB's.

 

How teams gameplan and attack their opponent depends greatly on what they are capable of implementing and their goals. Those things change as a season wears on. Not sure what your argument is here this is elementary.

 

The Chiefs, Dolphins and Browns will all be fighting for playoff positioning when they meet the Bills. The Broncos and Pats are locks to be building to playoff form and it would be a suprise if the Packers weren't in the hunt in December. That may not be a muderer's row but I like the competitiveness of that stretch. If they win 5 or 6 of those games they will have done something.....unlike that infamous year when they lost to Pittsburgh in the finale with playoffs on the line after going on a winning streak against the sisters of the poor.

 

Fitz was never particularly accurate when throwing the ball. When Fitz appeared to be playing "well," it was because Gailey had devised an offense to mask his lack of accuracy. Gailey's offense relied on Fitz to make very good reads both pre- and post-snap--something at which Fitz was good. The throws themselves were generally fairly easy.

 

The Bengals were the first team to catch up with Gailey's offense. (That happened before Fitz signed his monster extension.) They demonstrated the correct way to beat Fitz. The Bills must have seen that game as an exception to the norm. (Or else they wouldn't have given him that big contract extension.)

 

After Fitz signed that big extension, other teams followed the Bengals' example. That was no different than when teams learned that the correct way to defend Losman is to double cover Lee Evans, and put eight in the box to take away the run. Or when they learned the solution to Drew Bledsoe was pressure up the middle. The fact teams figured out a solution to Fitz doesn't mean he stopped trying hard. It means that Fitz was never going to be a great quarterback, no matter how hard he tried. He just didn't have the ability to play well after defenses figured him out.

 

In contrast to the above, I don't see anything particularly brilliant or gimmicky that Hackett is doing to make Orton look better than he really is. Orton is reading the field well, making good decisions, and throwing the ball accurately. Granted, he's not elite in any of those areas. But he's a significant upgrade over what we're used to, and is a better quarterback than Fitz.

 

Couldn't agree more. Orton is accurate but not exceptionally so. In his small sample size he has also had a little luck. The incredible catch by Watkins at the end of the Detroit game on a poor throw that was otherwise likely to have resulted in a game ending interception would have been the second consecutive start where he threw a game killer in the clutch (see the awful throw that ended Dallas playoff hopes in their finale last season). Is he improving as a QB? Maybe but it's just too hard to say from just 4 games.

[Augie]

now maybe we can stop beating this dead horse

 

You've been around awhile..... all dead horses are fair game. I'd hate to be a dead horse. (For a lot of reasons.)

 

I don't know if Orton is the answer or not, but he sure is an improvement!