Garranimal Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 But Fitz is more mobile. Still, I like Orton, and I'm in the rare minority who thought he kind of got the shaft in Denver. That was a pretty bad football team that Tebow took over and then got pretty lucky with. Orton is no long term answer because (1) he's 31; (2) he's Kyle Orton. But could we make the playoffs with him? Sure. We're one Tom Brady injury away from being the favorites. Ok, so just to clarify.....Orton was unlucky for the previous 18 games in Denver?
Doc Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Do you have eyes? Did you watch him throw passes every bit as bad as EJ? If Sammy doesn't drop all those first down passes the previous game Orton isn't even in there. Have some self respect as a Bills fan. What is so sad about the state of our fandom is we see mediocre(at best) pull one out on luck and we think there's a future there:( We have a playoff capable team and no trigger man. I realize a large percentage of you want to go to the playoffs even if we lose in the first round......SAD!!!!! I agree with you that had the WR's not dropped passes and had Hackett called for an equal number of running and pass plays (and if the OL wasn't so inept), the Bills win the Houston game and there's no QB switch. But as I said above, with the rest of the team being strong and the AFC East being wide open, Orton has the experience to overcome the OL and OC and to get the Bills into the playoffs and maybe, just maybe, show that he's worth keeping around for awhile. And I'll forgive his play in the first game, given the fact that he's only been with the team for a little over a month and only last week got starting snaps.
Maddog69 Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Just think what a different conversation we are having if Sammy tips that last pass in the air and it gets intercepted and run back for a TD or close enough that Detroit's crummy kicker actually makes a game winning FG? Then a lot of people are saying how mediocre Orton was, how he cost us the game and how EJ should go back in. Orton was lucky on Sunday. He's going to have to play better than that to beat New England and to get us to the playoffs. He's not the answer to any long term plans at this point. He's barely the answer to this week.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Orton wasn't the answer, Tebow wasn't the answer, Jay Cutler wasn't the answer, Jake Plummer wasn't the answer Steve Beuerlein wasn't the answer, Brian Griese wasn't the answer, Gus Frerotte wasn't the answer, can we put the Denver argument to bed now?
GG Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 the alternative spin is after he went 10-5 he was demoted to 3rd string because he had the lowest qb rating in the league. cutler trade i wont argue, then he went 8-8 and 1-4 with the broncos.... and as a free agent wasnt brought in by any team that had a void at qb. its fair to hold up his career as having question marks and GMs not loving him. There may be more than a few passing parallels to Steve DeBerg. We may joke about the Jack bottles, but I have no doubt that reputation plays a lot into a GM's thinking.
The Frankish Reich Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Ok, so just to clarify.....Orton was unlucky for the previous 18 games in Denver? Orton is 36-35 over 71 starts in his career. He was ridiculously lucky to go 10-5 as a starter on a team with a very good defense in his rookie year in Chicago. The Bears saw that, and he lost his starting job the next year (how many 10-5 starters don't start the next year?). In his first season in Denver he started 6-0. That wasn't a very good team. I should remind you that the Bills came into Mile High the previous season and beat Shanahan/Jay Cutler/etc. That probably was the last straw that got Shanahan fired and Cutler traded (for Orton). And that Trent Edwards led Bills team had nothing to play for while Shanahan was fighting to make the playoffs. I would call that 6-0 start preposterously lucky. And it all ended as quickly as it started. Orton wasn't better or worse, his luck just turned. They went to Tebow at the end of that season because that was McDaniel's boy. And he sucked. The next year Orton and the Broncos started poorly again. Back to Tebow, this time with John Fox letting Mike McCoy getting really inventive with the read option. And it worked, for a little while, with some lucky bounces (and a much better defense) helping. But the Broncos saw what Tebow was and wasn't, and correctly jumped on the Peyton Manning opportunity when it popped up. And then Orton went 2-1 as a starter (299 and 300 yards passing against the Packers and Raiders) on a not very good KC team that had gone 5-8 without him, then ending with Orton "beating" the Tebow Broncos. Then he sat behind Romo for 2 years, starting the last game against the Eagles and playing pretty much exactly like the Romo Cowboys, throwing for 358 yards with 2 picks and 2 TDs and losing a close one. The casual fan would say something like, "Orton was really good as a game manager his rookie year, then defenses seemed to figure him out and he sucked, but then he adjusted to what defenses were doing and showed he could rack up some big numbers." And the casual fan would be wrong. Watching him the truth is "same old Kyle Orton." A mid-level QB who can win on a team with a good defense and good supporting offensive players, but who can't turn a crap team into a winner." So if we are in fact a team with a good defense and good supporting offensive players .... go get 'em Kyle! (oh, but that offensive line ...)
NoSaint Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 There may be more than a few passing parallels to Steve DeBerg. We may joke about the Jack bottles, but I have no doubt that reputation plays a lot into a GM's thinking. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some worry about his off field professionalism and his ability not being worth what may be risked committing to him(or may not- I don't know the guy so who knows what's an average Tuesday night vs his college fraternity party photos).... Could be image issues, could be some sort of on going problem, could effect leadership.... Could just be he's a slightly below average starting qb and you don't commit to those guys long term.... We will probably learn a lot about the guy (good or bad) in the coming year. Orton is 36-35 over 71 starts in his career. He was ridiculously lucky to go 10-5 as a starter on a team with a very good defense in his rookie year in Chicago. The Bears saw that, and he lost his starting job the next year (how many 10-5 starters don't start the next year?). Not only that, they went out and signed Brian griese bumping him to 3 on the depth chart. I think the guy has a valuable role for our roster but I don't think it's wise to think pushing the chips in with orton would be a good idea either.
BarleyNY Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 I'm just gonna say this about Orton: While he's not an elite QB he is good enough that the FO doesn't have to panic and make another EJ Manuel type of pick. He'll be 32 next month so I think he has a few years left in the tank. It's time to let the Bills next QB come to them in a draft. They now have the luxury of taking a guy they like a little later in the draft where there is more value. Look for them to try and find a guy who can sit behind Orton and learn. Think about the Hoyer/Foles kinds of guys.
GG Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Not only that, they went out and signed Brian griese bumping him to 3 on the depth chart. I guess they weren't worried about their QBs getting drunk.
Doc Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 I wouldn't be surprised if there is some worry about his off field professionalism and his ability not being worth what may be risked committing to him(or may not- I don't know the guy so who knows what's an average Tuesday night vs his college fraternity party photos).... Could be image issues, could be some sort of on going problem, could effect leadership.... Could just be he's a slightly below average starting qb and you don't commit to those guys long term.... We will probably learn a lot about the guy (good or bad) in the coming year. It's most likely those unprofessional videos he makes in the off-season under a different name. Not only that, they went out and signed Brian griese bumping him to 3 on the depth chart. I think the guy has a valuable role for our roster but I don't think it's wise to think pushing the chips in with orton would be a good idea either. Griese and Grossman had the experience Orton lacked at the time. And given how good the defense was, they didn't want to waste it. Not unlike what the Bills are doing now. As for pushing in all the chips with Orton, they aren't really, and in any case they don't have much of a choice until the season ends.
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 I'm just gonna say this about Orton: While he's not an elite QB he is good enough that the FO doesn't have to panic and make another EJ Manuel type of pick. He'll be 32 next month so I think he has a few years left in the tank. It's time to let the Bills next QB come to them in a draft. They now have the luxury of taking a guy they like a little later in the draft where there is more value. Look for them to try and find a guy who can sit behind Orton and learn. Think about the Hoyer/Foles kinds of guys. See, that was my problem with the Orton move originally. Orton was way worse than EJ at similar stages at their careers. But he improved. I don't want a guy who is basically older and average stunting the growth of a young QB. I've accepted this year and hope EJ can benefit from it. But to not draft a guy or give up EJ because of Kyle Orton is just running in place. Part of the reason we didn't draft Russell Wilson is because we needed more weapons for Fitz. That didn't work out so good.
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Orton's history reads like a case study for an average QB who has never shown enough to convince a team that he can lead them to the Super Bowl and win it.
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Orton's history reads like a case study for an average QB who has never shown enough to convince a team that he can lead them to the Super Bowl and win it. But what if he is the 1% who can break the mold? Orton is the ok looking girl who is sorta nice. You date her for ahile but eventually, you realize you could be doing so much better.
NoSaint Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 It's most likely those unprofessional videos he makes in the off-season under a different name. Griese and Grossman had the experience Orton lacked at the time. And given how good the defense was, they didn't want to waste it. Not unlike what the Bills are doing now. As for pushing in all the chips with Orton, they aren't really, and in any case they don't have much of a choice until the season ends. i understand what we are doing -- the thread is about him being the long term answer though, so i am discussing him in that role, not as a short term stop gap (where ive for years stuck up for guys like him having value) as to the 3rd string thing - i was just underscoring that as a qb that went 10-5 as a rookie, clearly his play wasnt what youd expect as a 10-5 record to reflect or he wouldnt have been demoted. A lot of people have pointed to that year as him getting it done (it is his best W-L season, afterall) but he was the lowest rated starting qb in the league that year. im not trying to shred the guy, just saying realistic expectations are probably that hes in the 16-24 range of starting qbs any given week/year.
JC2002 Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Orton is 36-35 over 71 starts in his career. He was ridiculously lucky to go 10-5 as a starter on a team with a very good defense in his rookie year in Chicago. The Bears saw that, and he lost his starting job the next year (how many 10-5 starters don't start the next year?). In his first season in Denver he started 6-0. That wasn't a very good team. I should remind you that the Bills came into Mile High the previous season and beat Shanahan/Jay Cutler/etc. That probably was the last straw that got Shanahan fired and Cutler traded (for Orton). And that Trent Edwards led Bills team had nothing to play for while Shanahan was fighting to make the playoffs. I would call that 6-0 start preposterously lucky. And it all ended as quickly as it started. Orton wasn't better or worse, his luck just turned. They went to Tebow at the end of that season because that was McDaniel's boy. And he sucked. The next year Orton and the Broncos started poorly again. Back to Tebow, this time with John Fox letting Mike McCoy getting really inventive with the read option. And it worked, for a little while, with some lucky bounces (and a much better defense) helping. But the Broncos saw what Tebow was and wasn't, and correctly jumped on the Peyton Manning opportunity when it popped up. And then Orton went 2-1 as a starter (299 and 300 yards passing against the Packers and Raiders) on a not very good KC team that had gone 5-8 without him, then ending with Orton "beating" the Tebow Broncos. Then he sat behind Romo for 2 years, starting the last game against the Eagles and playing pretty much exactly like the Romo Cowboys, throwing for 358 yards with 2 picks and 2 TDs and losing a close one. The casual fan would say something like, "Orton was really good as a game manager his rookie year, then defenses seemed to figure him out and he sucked, but then he adjusted to what defenses were doing and showed he could rack up some big numbers." And the casual fan would be wrong. Watching him the truth is "same old Kyle Orton." A mid-level QB who can win on a team with a good defense and good supporting offensive players, but who can't turn a crap team into a winner." So if we are in fact a team with a good defense and good supporting offensive players .... go get 'em Kyle! (oh, but that offensive line ...) Good stuff its exactly how I feel. Orton is not Andrew Luck but he can be good on talented team and we have a talented team .Hes one of the rare available qbs that has had success as a game manager and in a shotgun passing attack. I said the other day that the thing about Orton is that he has never been someones guy and I think we benefit from all the drama oton has been through and the changes the league has undergone since orton came into it in 2004 . I think people forget that in college Orton was a BIGTIME shotgun QB . At Purdue he as breaking and pushing up on all of Brees records but in 2004 the league was not that into shotgun passers and if you wanted to play you had to learn how to play under center to see the field . The 'spread offense' had to change to play in the NFL but its now such a big part of today's NFL that they don't have to and teams now even take more chances on guys who are runners more than passers form the gun with the spread option . Thats the reason why Mcdaniels in Denver wanted Orton over jason campbell because he knew Orton despite playing in a single back under center limited shotgun system with the bears he could adapt to the patriots shotgun passing attack that Mcdaniels wanted to use in Denver . What you see around the league now are things that Orton has always been good at but were not heavily valued 10 years ago . Hes not going to turn into Rodgers or Rivers overnight but to dismiss what he could bring to the table as some are doing without even looking into the circumstances is whats wrong with todays sports . When we play the broncos in a couple of months it will be interesting to say the least
GG Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 i understand what we are doing -- the thread is about him being the long term answer though, so i am discussing him in that role, not as a short term stop gap (where ive for years stuck up for guys like him having value) as to the 3rd string thing - i was just underscoring that as a qb that went 10-5 as a rookie, clearly his play wasnt what youd expect as a 10-5 record to reflect or he wouldnt have been demoted. A lot of people have pointed to that year as him getting it done (it is his best W-L season, afterall) but he was the lowest rated starting qb in the league that year. im not trying to shred the guy, just saying realistic expectations are probably that hes in the 16-24 range of starting qbs any given week/year. Few rational observers would anoint Orton as a franchise guy. That's why there are comparisons to Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson & Steve Deberg. At best we an hope for Plunkett, Gannon, Testaverde type of outcomes, but I'm not betting on it. The upshot is that Bills most certainly will need to continue looking for their franchise QB, because what does it say that a career journeyman with one month on the roster is looked as a savior for the 2014 season.
John from Riverside Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Man people are just overanalyzing Orton to death........ I dont know how well he is gonna do for us but - Does anyone have any doubt that the Lions game would not have been a complete disaster if EJ had started the game? Seriously as a EJ supporter (I still do support him he is on the team) I look at that film and i see a Lions defense that would have eaten EJ alive. - Our running game was not working for spit.......the play calling by Hacket was DEPLORABLE - Orton was getting hit on every damn play......and that is with him getting that ball out on time - Depite all that (and even with some pretty bad throws especially in the first half) Orton was also fitting that ball into some very tight windows. He TRUSTS his arm........he had a 300 yard game (first one for Buffalo in TWO years) he set a record for how many different receiving targets he hit....he was actually using his recievers.......he threw a most excellent deep pass to Goodwin....... - Oh....been with us for a month and ONE WEEK of work with the starting offense.....no training camp I Orton the answer? I dont know......I do know that his play picked up as the game went on like a QB with a lot of rust. Lets say for a minute that EJ Manuel is not the answer and never gets back into a game as a Bill.........based on what I saw against the Lions I would feel comfortable with Orton being the bridge gap QB to the bills grooming a young signal caller.....we do NOT have to use our 2nd round pick on a guy this next year.......sure would be nice to have a stud tight end with that pick. Sometimes people forget that we have not made the playoffs in FIFTEEN YEARS.......people are talking like if Orton cannot lead this team to the Super Bowl then we should be looking for the next best thing immediately How about we let this team feel good about making the playoffs first....and show some stability.......I could live with a playoff birth knowing that the team is only going to get better.
JC2002 Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Not only that, they went out and signed Brian griese bumping him to 3 on the depth chart. I think the guy has a valuable role for our roster but I don't think it's wise to think pushing the chips in with Orton would be a good idea either. Thats because Orton was mad that he was not allowed to compete for the job when Orton was allowed to compete in 2008 he beat Grossman out for the job easily but because of the friction Orton caused the GM wanted him gone and thats why they got Cutler even though the coaches and the players loved orton http://www.buffalobi...=tw_buf_article Brian Urlacher says the bears would have won a SB had they kept Orton under center and Ruben Brown says that the bears basically missed out on Orton because they really never tried to develop Orton or have the patience to allow him to do given what he was already capable of as a rookie . People want to say hes like Deberg or some of the older Qbs they remember as stable game managers but honestly you cant compare him to them simply because the league has changed so much since the past 10 years .
Jauronimo Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Thats because Orton was mad that he was not allowed to compete for the job when Orton was allowed to compete in 2008 he beat Grossman out for the job easily but because of the friction Orton caused the GM wanted him gone and thats why they got Cutler even though the coaches and the players loved orton http://www.buffalobi...=tw_buf_article Brian Urlacher says the bears would have won a SB had they kept Orton under center and Ruben Brown says that the bears basically missed out on Orton because they really never tried to develop Orton or have the patience to allow him to do given what he was already capable of as a rookie . People want to say hes like Deberg or some of the older Qbs they remember as stable game managers but honestly you cant compare him to them simply because the league has changed so much since the past 10 years . They traded Orton because Cutler was on the block not because Orton had beef with the Bears' GM. Cutler and McDaniels had a falling out. Cutler basically refused to play for McDaniels and had to be moved. Bears pulled on the trigger on what looked like an emerging star, first round talent.
Orton's Arm Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Man people are just overanalyzing Orton to death........ I dont know how well he is gonna do for us but - Does anyone have any doubt that the Lions game would not have been a complete disaster if EJ had started the game? Seriously as a EJ supporter (I still do support him he is on the team) I look at that film and i see a Lions defense that would have eaten EJ alive. - Our running game was not working for spit.......the play calling by Hacket was DEPLORABLE - Orton was getting hit on every damn play......and that is with him getting that ball out on time - Depite all that (and even with some pretty bad throws especially in the first half) Orton was also fitting that ball into some very tight windows. He TRUSTS his arm........he had a 300 yard game (first one for Buffalo in TWO years) he set a record for how many different receiving targets he hit....he was actually using his recievers.......he threw a most excellent deep pass to Goodwin....... - Oh....been with us for a month and ONE WEEK of work with the starting offense.....no training camp I Orton the answer? I dont know......I do know that his play picked up as the game went on like a QB with a lot of rust. Lets say for a minute that EJ Manuel is not the answer and never gets back into a game as a Bill.........based on what I saw against the Lions I would feel comfortable with Orton being the bridge gap QB to the bills grooming a young signal caller.....we do NOT have to use our 2nd round pick on a guy this next year.......sure would be nice to have a stud tight end with that pick. Sometimes people forget that we have not made the playoffs in FIFTEEN YEARS.......people are talking like if Orton cannot lead this team to the Super Bowl then we should be looking for the next best thing immediately How about we let this team feel good about making the playoffs first....and show some stability.......I could live with a playoff birth knowing that the team is only going to get better. > Orton . . . TRUSTS his arm As well he should!
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