Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Didn't we already have some "advisors" on the ground at that point, and didn't those advisors look an awful lot like regular soldiers? and of course if president said it, it must be true. 223488[/snapback] I'm just telling you what he said in his interview... He died, so there will never be an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac17 Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 'm just telling you what he said in his interview... He died, so there will never be an answer. I understand, but "advisors" was just a nicer way of saying soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsNYC Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Before you attack those who disagree over the Iraq War II, remember this: Remember the Vietnam veterans, who either died or were scarred, maimed, or mentally damaged, who fought so valiantly in a terrible conflict that initially was concocted by a Gulf of Tonkin incident that never happened, when their government led them down a road that tore our country apart. 222987[/snapback] Remember the liberals who protested against the war destroying the moral of the troops fighting in Vietnam, then spitting in their faces upon their return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 It's a disappointing phenomenon in this country- liberal elitists in the major population centers convince the residents of those same centers to keep themselves and their kids out of the military while small town America always supports our Armed Forces. In the current conflict it's our major population centers EXCLUSIVELY at threat- Middle Eastern Terrorists couldn't care about Bonesteel South Dakota while elite New York City is target #1- yet elite New York City sends the nationwide lowest percentage of Americans to the fight, instead allowing the kids from Bonesteel and other small towns to die protecting their elite centers. It's one of the great American hypocrisies- the disgusting cowardice of the loud-mouthed elite. I offer this opinion as a former enlisted member of our armed forces, an experience that offers me a first-hand perspective of who actually serves in our volunteer forces. 222904[/snapback] The numbers show that plenty of Americans from large cities and "blue" states have died in this war and I for one resent your attack on the Americans who have fought and died for their country who happen to come from a different zip code than you. Your insults against your fellow Americans is nothing less than shameful. Map of casualites in Iraq by US citites. Map of US fatalities by state Let me provide some of the names of the people you insulted just to get a sense of how "patriotic" your post is to those of us not privileged to live where ever it is that you live. I'll leave it to you to argue the numerical values of per capita sacrifices. Me, I just see them as Americans, all of them. Julian Melo: Staff Sgt., from Brooklyn NY was killed Decemeber 21, 2004 by a suicide bomber in Mosul. Vicotor Martinez: From the Bronx, was killed by a sniper in Babil on December 14, 2004. He was 21. Henry Irizarry: Killed December 3, 2004 in Taji, NW of Baghdad in an IED attack. He was also from the Bronx. Pablo Calderon: From Brooklyn, he was killed in Fallujah last November. He was a Sgt. in the 1st Battalion, 5th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division. Christian P. Engeldrum: From the Bronx, he was killed on November 29 of last year in Baghdad. Frederick Akintade: From Brooklyn, was killed in an RPG attack in Balad on 10/28/04, he was a Specialist in the U.S. Army National Guard 2nd Battalion, 108th Infantry Regiment. Luis A. Moreno: Of the Bronx, he died on 01/29/04 when he was shot by a sniper. He was part of Battery A, 4th Battalion, 1st Field Artillery, US Army. Rayshawn S. Johnson: Of Brooklyn, he died on 11/03/03 in an IED attack in Tikrit. He was a Private 1st Class in the U.S. Army, 299th Engr. Bat., 4th Infantry Div. (Mech.). He was only 20. There are many more but numbers are not the point. These are people, not statistics. To all of them and to all our soldiers, wherever they come from and whatever their politics are, thank you and God keep you safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 The numbers show that plenty of Americans from large cities and "blue" states have died in this war and I for one resent your attack on the Americans who have fought and died for their country who happen to come from a different zip code than you. Your insults against your fellow Americans is nothing less than shameful. There are many more but numbers are not the point. These are people, not statistics. To all of them and to all our soldiers, wherever they come from and whatever their politics are, thank you and God keep you safe. 223755[/snapback] Even a liberal could understand the term "percentages" if they wanted to accurately discuss my original proposition. Since the facts about those percentages completely contradict your post and fully support mine, I'll simply assume you're so embarrased by your lack of support for the honorable mission of our troops overseas that you're willing to resort to distortion to hide that embarrassment. Stick with the facts- they're irrefutable. Distorting my post is something I can accept, your distortion though of the couragous numbers of our service members who disproportionately as a percentage of our population come from rural America is shamefull at this time when they are performing under fire and so effectively. Your refusal to acknowledge the disproportionate representation of "Red State" Americans serving may cloud you own ability to express pride for America today but I can guarantee you most Americans have no such restraints. I continue to support every one of our service members while I refuse to ignore the smaller percentages of them coming from the liberal bastions that remain the primary targets of our enemies. God Bless America, and my America includes the small towns where the highest percentage of our military come from. It's disappointing that your America diminishes the contributions of those same great Americans and their voices. FYI- I spend equal times in my home in Santa Monica, one of the great liberal populaces in the country, and my home in rural Pine Mountain. I've got a pretty solid reading of the difference between the attitudes in these very different SoCal locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Remember the liberals who protested against the war destroying the moral of the troops fighting in Vietnam, then spitting in their faces upon their return. 223745[/snapback] I KNOW that!!! I condemn that sort of activity... I have an intense dislike for the 60's in general, and the attitudes it created! It is that period that created MUCH of the problems we face now. HOWEVER... This is NOW, where military men and women have full support while the people object to the government's actions. We actually LEARNED something from the 60's in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 I KNOW that!!! I condemn that sort of activity... I have an intense dislike for the 60's in general, and the attitudes it created! It is that period that created MUCH of the problems we face now. HOWEVER... This is NOW, where military men and women have full support while the people object to the government's actions. We actually LEARNED something from the 60's in that regard. 223832[/snapback] What we learned from the Vietnam experience was that tens of thousands of American kids were killed simply because of the Anti-War movement. As General Giap, the commanding officer of the North Vietnamese forces explained in his memoirs, his side was preparing their surrender terms at the time the Anti-War movement became highly publicized by the Main Stream Media and Giap and co. strategically decided to hold out and see if these would change American resolve to finish a job which was for all intents and purposes completed. The rest is history, and the tens of thousands of lives lost to those in the U.S. who couldn't find support their own while under fire is is one of the great failures of a segment of our public. It's a lesson we would have liked to have thought was learned, it appears possibly it was not based upon your position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Even a liberal could understand the term "percentages" if they wanted to accurately discuss my original proposition. Since the facts about those percentages completely contradict your post and fully support mine, I'll simply assume you're so embarrased by your lack of support for the honorable mission of our troops overseas that you're willing to resort to distortion to hide that embarrassment. Stick with the facts- they're irrefutable. Distorting my post is something I can accept, your distortion though of the couragous numbers of our service members who disproportionately as a percentage of our population come from rural America is shamefull at this time when they are performing under fire and so effectively. Your refusal to acknowledge the disproportionate representation of "Red State" Americans serving may cloud you own ability to express pride for America today but I can guarantee you most Americans have no such restraints. I continue to support every one of our service members while I refuse to ignore the smaller percentages of them coming from the liberal bastions that remain the primary targets of our enemies. God Bless America, and my America includes the small towns where the highest percentage of our military come from. It's disappointing that your America diminishes the contributions of those same great Americans and their voices. 223820[/snapback] God bless those men and women who are intelligent enough to realize when its military men and women are shoveled off to some location for the purposes of a dubious nature. God bless the men who fought in opposition to a government who tried to deny the people its basic rights, men such as George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Patrick Henry, John Adams, and MORE! THESE MEN created a government that is ACCOUNTABLE to the people, no matter WHAT. God bless the true patriots of the American nation, who not only express their just causes in words, but ACTIONS as well. These true patriots know that there are elements out there who try to hoodwink the people, fooling them into thinking that what they are doing is just, and thrusting a flag and a slogan in the people's faces while doing it. God bless those who REFUSE to give in to the notion of un-American and unpatriotic activity when they stand for something JUST!!! NEVER let them tell you anything of the sort... BE PROUD of who you are, and fight the good fight. God bless the United States of America, the land where I can post this and tell EVERYONE who thinks my fellow Americans who opposed the Iraqi action and still fully support our military are anything BUT patriotic are DEAD WRONG. That red, white, and blue is more than a symbol, or a tool for the conservative right. It is FREEDOM and HISTORY and RIGHTS!!! Remember conservatives didn't create this country... FREE THINKERS DID! How dare you lecture us on patriotism, no matter WHAT STATE we come from!! Shame! Shame! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 What we learned from the Vietnam experience was that tens of thousands of American kids were killed simply because of the Anti-War movement. As General Giap, the commanding officer of the North Vietnamese forces explained in his memoirs, his side was preparing their surrender terms at the time the Anti-War movement became highly publicized by the Main Stream Media and Giap and co. strategically decided to hold out and see if these would change American resolve to finish a job which was for all intents and purposes completed. The rest is history, and the tens of thousands of lives lost to those in the U.S. who couldn't find support their own while under fire is is one of the great failures of a segment of our public. It's a lesson we would have liked to have thought was learned, it appears possibly it was not based upon your position. 223838[/snapback] Why, because the TRUTH about Vietnam was oblivious to the high command?? The government was telling the people we were winning when we WERENT!! Damn those sick protesters, but come on... nobody is fooled by Westmoreland anymore. We know what happened; the tactics of the Communists were just too good for us to overcome without nuclear weapons. I can't IMAGINE fighting in such a theater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 How dare you lecture us on patriotism, no matter WHAT STATE we come from!! Shame! Shame! 223842[/snapback] I see absolutely nothing in this string questioning the patriotism of others, although I see plenty of quesitoning of the judgement of other! What is clear is that there is tremendous self-doubt among those of you who have failed to step up and support the good mission; you appear to wonder yourself whether you are a patriot. Don't ask me to answer that question for you, you might possibly be gaining enough persective to answer it yourself! Self-doubt can be a powerful teacher ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastaJoe Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 It's a disappointing phenomenon in this country- liberal elitists in the major population centers convince the residents of those same centers to keep themselves and their kids out of the military while small town America always supports our Armed Forces. In the current conflict it's our major population centers EXCLUSIVELY at threat- Middle Eastern Terrorists couldn't care about Bonesteel South Dakota while elite New York City is target #1- yet elite New York City sends the nationwide lowest percentage of Americans to the fight, instead allowing the kids from Bonesteel and other small towns to die protecting their elite centers. It's one of the great American hypocrisies- the disgusting cowardice of the loud-mouthed elite. Maybe the problem is that the kids in small town America are convinced by narrow minded people that they should pledge their blind obedience to government leaders who don't think military force should be the last option, some of whom have never served in the military and don't encourage their children to do so, and who think that we should attack people who haven't attacked us. It's the "elites" who had the military's best interest at heart by not supporting this administration's policy of invading a country that wasn't a threat to America. It's a hypocracy that the people that say they support the troops are the ones who are the first to want to put them in harm's way, especially when it isn't necessary to the defense of America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 The numbers show that plenty of Americans from large cities and "blue" states have died in this war and I for one resent your attack on the Americans who have fought and died for their country who happen to come from a different zip code than you. 223755[/snapback] The links you provided do not address the point AKC was making in his post. Do you have the stats for the number of people who volunteered for military service, since that is the actual point AKC is arguing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Maybe the problem is that the kids in small town America are convinced by narrow minded people that they should pledge their blind obedience to government leaders who don't think military force should be the last option, some of whom have never served in the military and don't encourage their children to do so, and who think that we should attack people who haven't attacked us. It's the "elites" who had the military's best interest at heart by not supporting this administration's policy of invading a country that wasn't a threat to America. It's a hypocracy that the people that say they support the troops are the ones who are the first to want to put them in harm's way, especially when it isn't necessary to the defense of America. 223859[/snapback] Well said. The narrow-minded have tried to spread their influence through various channels. RIGHT ON about the hypocrisy... it is scary when the hawks raise up and act the way they do. But what can you say when 52% of the people vote the way they did??? That is undeniable... scary, but undeniable, and it has a lot to do with the weak nature of John Kerry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 Maybe the problem is that the kids in small town America are convinced by narrow minded people that they should pledge their blind obedience to government leaders who don't think military force should be the last option, some of whom have never served in the military and don't encourage their children to do so, and who think that we should attack people who haven't attacked us. It's the "elites" who had the military's best interest at heart by not supporting this administration's policy of invading a country that wasn't a threat to America. It's a hypocracy that the people that say they support the troops are the ones who are the first to want to put them in harm's way, especially when it isn't necessary to the defense of America. 223859[/snapback] I agree with you that you have the right to support positions that invite more 9/11 attacks on our country and also the right to fail to connect the 2+2 equation that shows the necessity of our fight in the Middle East against those in that region who hate us has. You have the right to ignore that we're impacting our enemies ability to attack us on our ground through tying up the most fervent of their disciples and financial resources along with our intelligence gains with our action in the Middle East. I'll choose the other path- to recognize what appears incredibly obvious and also to credit those who have chosen to protect the whole of America by not suggesting they are so stupid that they succumb to the will of others. It takes no great courage to question the intelligence of the bulk of our troops as you have, but it takes great courage to commit to joining a war-time military. I'm sorry for you that you could publicly feel compelled to say something so reprehensible to most Americans and especially to our troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Well said. The narrow-minded have tried to spread their influence through various channels. RIGHT ON about the hypocrisy... it is scary when the hawks raise up and act the way they do. But what can you say when 52% of the people vote the way they did??? That is undeniable... scary, but undeniable, and it has a lot to do with the weak nature of John Kerry. 223867[/snapback] No, it has to do with the fact that Kery was a TRAITOR and met with NVA and Viet Cong members in Paris (suprise) while in UNIFORM! Kerry was and is a scumbag and a tolerator of Communism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I see absolutely nothing in this string questioning the patriotism of others, although I see plenty of quesitoning of the judgement of other! What is clear is that there is tremendous self-doubt among those of you who have failed to step up and support the good mission; you appear to wonder yourself whether you are a patriot. Don't ask me to answer that question for you, you might possibly be gaining enough persective to answer it yourself! Self-doubt can be a powerful teacher ;-) 223858[/snapback] A good mission? We disagree on that point, but to question someone's PATRIOTISM over it? That is not right to me... what if the government decided to attack North Korea instead of using diplomacy, and they nuked huge numbers of our men and women serving overseas in retaliation? Would THAT be enough for you to stand up and object? Or will it take a nuclear war of huge proportions to object? What WOULD cause you to object? Or would you not EVER? Just curious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 No, it has to do with the fact that Kery was a TRAITOR and met with NVA and Viet Cong members in Paris (suprise) while in UNIFORM! Kerry was and is a scumbag and a tolerator of Communism. 223887[/snapback] A tolerator of Communism??? Fighting AGAINST Communists was toleration? WHAAAAA? Ohhh, you know... Eisenhower met with Communists while in uniform, so I guess HE was a traitor as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 A good mission? We disagree on that point, but to question someone's PATRIOTISM over it? That is not right to me... what if the government decided to attack North Korea instead of using diplomacy, and they nuked huge numbers of our men and women serving overseas in retaliation? Would THAT be enough for you to stand up and object? Or will it take a nuclear war of huge proportions to object? What WOULD cause you to object? Or would you not EVER? Just curious... 223892[/snapback] Unlike 'Nam, we had a long and thorough period to protest this action priot to our Congress overwhelmingly approving the same action. Today is the time for support. Back to Patriotism- isn't it fitting that during this whole period of the lead-up and action in Iraq the only people bringing up Patriotism are those who seem to express doubts about their own! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 We know what happened; the tactics of the Communists were just too good for us to overcome without nuclear weapons. I can't IMAGINE fighting in such a theater. 223854[/snapback] Would you include in the tactics of Communists the covert KGB operatives in the US to spread seeds of discontent and war opposition among the population? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Would you include in the tactics of Communists the covert KGB operatives in the US to spread seeds of discontent and war opposition among the population? 223912[/snapback] They didn't need it... it was right on the television every night, despite the official government position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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