The Big Cat Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 I guess you missed the part where I said "he doesn't need to be a starting NFL RB". Those two guys that are in the same spot as Spiller but yet still see 2x as many targets in the passing game. That's fine right up until the part where he'll expect to be paid like one.
bobobonators Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 How many times has CJ ever been used in this fashion? http://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2013/10/4/4799140/how-the-san-diego-chargers-utilize-danny-woodhead That's fine right up until the part where he'll expect to be paid like one. We'll see.
Big C Posted October 6, 2014 Author Posted October 6, 2014 Comparing CJ to Fred is not fair: Fred simply runs better between the tackles. CJ is better in space. The OC's inability to utilize CJ properly falls squarely on the OC and NOT CJ. Gailey turned CJ into one of the biggest threats in the NFL - that's someone who knows what they have and properly utilize it. Hackett has a Ferrari and is utilizing it like a Dodge Ram. That's on Hackett and it's my single biggest gripe with the guy. Have you seen Fred move in space? Dude's still got moves. Also I've seen Woodhead get plenty of carries between the tackles.
8-8 Forever? Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 no. I hated Roscoe Parrish just as much or more than CJ and they are identical. ouch. yes. I guess to be consistent, I have to be good with Roscoe...hmmm.... he did bring some of the same element, but CJ can take the ball 5 different ways and hit the homer. Roscoe no.
billsfan1959 Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) so if your argument is that the TD stat is not a realistic way to account for how well a RB played, then why can't I argue that total yards is just as false of a gauge as well? How bout the statistic of his carries without his long breakout runs? How about the amount of times he could have had large runs but doesn't because his vision is terrible? How about the amount of times that he makes the wrong decision to stay in or out of bounds? It works both way, you see. Speaking of 2012... Why is it that the rest of our offense struggled, but our RBs played well? Maybe because we were behind quite a bit and the defenses we were facing were giving is the run so that we couldn't pass? This is just too easy to defend my opinion. When all the "pro CJ" opinions are just filled with what Ifs and excuses. It's ok. You'll see. He will not finish anywhere near 1,000 yards this season. He'll be signed by some other team and for 3 yours you will see him produce about the same as he has with us for 5 years. Then you will wonder what ever happened to him and make claims that he could have been so good if he had just been used properly. No. It was because, for most of his carries, CJ was the lone back out of the spread formation (and it wasn't always when they were way behind). That suits his skill set and he averaged almost 6 yards per carry. This year, when utilized as the lone back in a spread formation, Spiller has averaged over 6 yards per carry - while averaging less than 2 yards per carry when they are in a two tight end set. Your dislike for Spiller has been evident for a very long time. The fact is that he is an exceptional talent when used in the right way. Edited October 7, 2014 by billsfan1959
Ohiostyle Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 I'd still very much like to have him back at fair price, but I think that's doubtful at this point.
JohnC Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) I'm very confident that Spiller will be retained with a fair/reasonable contract. Whaley has stated that he covets big play players like Spiller and that he wants to keep him. If this team wants to get more output from him it has to run more plays suitable to his skill set. It would also help if the line play, especially the guard play, was vastly improved. The same predictable chorus of critics who loudly come out when he is not a major factor in a game become gushing supporters when he makes his typical explosive plays that contribute to wins. Since CJ has been on the roster no one on the offense has come close to making the number of impactful plays as he has. Yet the lamenting continues to get shriller and shriller. Instead of focusing on what he isn't good at--- pay more attention to what he is exceptional at. Edited October 7, 2014 by JohnC
bobobonators Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 Have you seen Fred move in space? Dude's still got moves. Also I've seen Woodhead get plenty of carries between the tackles. Have you seen Fred move in space? Dude's still got moves. Also I've seen Woodhead get plenty of carries between the tackles. Im not saying anything negative about Fred. Hes a beast. This convo isnt about him. Its strictly about CJ and how his skillset can be bestbutilized to benefit this offense the most. Of course woodhead has also been successful between the tackles to a certain extent as well but thats not the skillset that teams like the chargers and pats coveted about him. How many times do you see woodhead run it up the middle in standard run formations? Its rare. Hes always been lined up all over the field creating mismatches, in addition to being a feature back to run between the tackles - many times on a draw play.
mrags Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 Actually the perfect team to trade him to has already played the Bills and they need a RB - San Diego. Their OL coach used to be ours and he runs a scheme Spiller excels under. yeah. Unfortunately for that argument, the Chargers actually have a good RB in Oliver. ouch. yes. I guess to be consistent, I have to be good with Roscoe...hmmm.... he did bring some of the same element, but CJ can take the ball 5 different ways and hit the homer. Roscoe no. yeah. His 20 total TDs over 5 years is definately evidence that he can hit the homer in so any ways. In case you need help with the math, that's 4 TDs a season so far. Not good in case you dropped out of math in 3rd grade. I appreciate the attempt tho.
BuffOrange Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 Kelly is an offensive genius based on what? One fluke season? That offense is not sustainable in the NFL. The only "sustainable" offenses over a multi-year sample are the ones with good QB's. In the meantime he's making a fool out of your antiquated caveman views of offense with very average talent.
mrags Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 No. It was because, for most of his carries, CJ was the lone back out of the spread formation (and it wasn't always when they were way behind). That suits his skill set and he averaged almost 6 yards per carry. This year, when utilized as the lone back in a spread formation, Spiller has averaged over 6 yards per carry - while averaging less than 2 yards per carry when they are in a two tight end set. Your dislike for Spiller has been evident for a very long time. The fact is that he is an exceptional talent when used in the right way. yeah. His average of 755 yards a season (prior to 2014, which is fortunate so far for you actually) rushing the ball is evidence of that. Get a grip. 755 frigging yards? 4 TDs a season? You've got to be kidding me. The excuses this guy gets is hilarious. You'd think he single handedly won us the Super Bowl or something.
BuffOrange Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 I hope we don't keep CJ. He's likely going to get paid far too much for his production. He's had 1 really good season in 5 years and for being a top 10 pick that's not very impressive. RBs are a dime a dozen these days and teams have shown that they can get production from guys plucked off the streets. You look at the most recent contracts given to RBs and you'll see Johnathan Stewart just got $36.5 million and Jamaal Charles got nearly $28 million. I would have to imagine CJ is going to want something close to either one and that's just an insane amount of money to pay for him when it's obvious our coaching staffs have shown that they don't know to use him. I agree with the general philosophy and trend to de-value RB's. But our management wanted to use a high pick on Carlos Hyde, so....IDK what you want to do with that. I think it's safe to say at this point Hackett really does just suck at using him. Textbook not adapting to your talent. Lots of people ITT pretend like 2012 never happened.
bobobonators Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 yeah. Unfortunately for that argument, the Chargers actually have a good RB in Oliver. yeah. His 20 total TDs over 5 years is definately evidence that he can hit the homer in so any ways. In case you need help with the math, that's 4 TDs a season so far. Not good in case you dropped out of math in 3rd grade. I appreciate the attempt tho. For as bad as some of you say he is, he still has a career average of 5.0 ypc (higher than Fred's 4.5). There's no reason why CJ can't be targeted in the passing game more than 2x per game.
mrags Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 For as bad as some of you say he is, he still has a career average of 5.0 ypc (higher than Fred's 4.5). There's no reason why CJ can't be targeted in the passing game more than 2x per game. haven't you already gotten word from everyone here? Comparing CJ to Fred is ridiculous. It's no comparison at all they are 2 completely different types of RBs. I don't accept that argument.
bobobonators Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 haven't you already gotten word from everyone here? Comparing CJ to Fred is ridiculous. It's no comparison at all they are 2 completely different types of RBs. I don't accept that argument. In all seriousness, I just don't understand the CJ hate. The guy has been a class act (as far as i'm aware) in buffalo. the bills drafted him in first round and then rarely utilized him his first season. Then CJ improves quite a bit his second season and goes BONKERS his 3rd season, and the HC, OC are gone and an entirely new offensive scheme that apparently doesn't know how to call a run play that's not an iformation running in right into Wood's butt.
FireChan Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) haven't you already gotten word from everyone here? Comparing CJ to Fred is ridiculous. It's no comparison at all they are 2 completely different types of RBs. I don't accept that argument. Well comparing Fred to CJ is a bad comparison because Fred is versatile, smart, and crafty, while CJ has billion dollar talent and a 10 cent head. It''s not fair. The best part about this debate is he'll have another 15 carries for 10 yards game, then he'll break a 40 yarder and everyone will go, "See!!!!" even though he's still detrimental to the team offense 97% of the time. It will never end. In all seriousness, I just don't understand the CJ hate. The guy has been a class act (as far as i'm aware) in buffalo. the bills drafted him in first round and then rarely utilized him his first season. Then CJ improves quite a bit his second season and goes BONKERS his 3rd season, and the HC, OC are gone and an entirely new offensive scheme that apparently doesn't know how to call a run play that's not an iformation running in right into Wood's butt. CJ had a great season when the entire offense had been built around him for 3 years. We still finished in the bottom 10 in most categories, but he had a good year. I'd say the new offensive scheme is more based around winning football games, not pumping up Spill's stats. I don't hate Spiller, but his constant poor decision-making frustrates the hell out of me, as well as his inability to consistently hit the holes that are right in front of him. Spiller could've been a great player if he had a better head. That's frustrating as hell. Edited October 7, 2014 by FireChan
bobobonators Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 Well comparing Fred to CJ is a bad comparison because Fred is versatile, smart, and crafty, while CJ has billion dollar talent and a 10 cent head. It''s not fair. The best part about this debate is he'll have another 15 carries for 10 yards game, then he'll break a 40 yarder and everyone will go, "See!!!!" even though he's still detrimental to the team offense 97% of the time. It will never end. Do you have empirical evidence that method is not as effective at producing scores in a game? Or is this just anecdotal? 5.0ypc is 5.0ypc anyway you slice it and dice it.
Kelly the Dog Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 Do you have empirical evidence that method is not as effective at producing scores in a game? Or is this just anecdotal? 5.0ypc is 5.0ypc anyway you slice it and dice it. Oh, and the only two other active players with a decent amount of carries that average 5.0 or more are Jamaal Charles and Adrian Peterson.
mrags Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 In all seriousness, I just don't understand the CJ hate. The guy has been a class act (as far as i'm aware) in buffalo. the bills drafted him in first round and then rarely utilized him his first season. Then CJ improves quite a bit his second season and goes BONKERS his 3rd season, and the HC, OC are gone and an entirely new offensive scheme that apparently doesn't know how to call a run play that's not an iformation running in right into Wood's butt. improved quite a bit in his 2nd season? Really?!? So from 200 yards to 500 yards is a big inprovement? Man. I just don't get it. Why is he a class act? Because we don't hear him in the media at all? That doesn't make him a class act. It just makes him quiet. 2 different things. But still, it's not like he's driving over Canadians, smoking weed in vehicles with loaded weapons. He's not having unprotected sex with 17 year olds. He's not outright saying the Bills should move to Toronto. In all seriousness, I used to really like CJ. I never bought into his crazy fan club like everyone, but I really liked him and hoped he would succeed. Then I realized how much of a disappointment he was on a weekly basis. I realized how it's not about the few big plays he makes that ale a difference. It's lack of basic football intelligence that costs the team drives through every game. And those drives turn into punts which turn into being down in more games than were ahead. Of course it isn't all on CJ. But he's not helping. It's absolutely no different why we just benched EJ for Orton. It's not about the plays each player makes. It's about the ones that they don't make. I'll say it again... Good players are just good. They don't use excuses. Fans don't need to use excuses. They take over games no matter what. No matter who they play. No matter who surrounds them. They are good no matter what.
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