Why I think Marrone should be fired...

[dave mcbride]

I agree about W-L record for QB. But don't forget that EJ lost 2 games where he left the field with the lead (NE & ATL) and got credited for a loss in the Cleveland game where he was leading us to take the lead.

 

And my whole point is switching QBs is such a Bills type move, which haven't worked for 14 years. For once, I'd like to see the opposite. Again, I hope Orton proves me wrong. But I've seen this story too many times. And to give EJ a college OC (and it wasn't Chip Kelly or Kevin Sumlin either) was putting him behind the 8 ball to begin with.

 

The thing is, the QB switches have always worked! The better player got onto the field. The fact that the replacement wasn't the answer is beside the point; they gave the team a better chance to win. None of the guys who were replaced did anything after leaving the Bills. Indeed, they were even worse.

 

As for the QB W-L stat, I honestly don't put any stock in it. I mean, I barely put any stock in won-loss records for starting pitchers.

 

Finally, we'll have to agree to disagree about Hackett. I think he's OK.

Edited September 30, 2014 by dave mcbride

[JPS]

If the Left Tackle got beat for 5 sacks, you'd want him replaced. If you CB gave up 3 TDs, same.

 

That's how bad EJ was the last 2 weeks. How is it any different? Everyone should suffer until we find out if this guy HAS a light that MAY go on? EJ was not alone in failing the last 2 weeks, but he was the leader and had ultimate control of the outcome.

 

Next.

[Kemp]

The OC cannot make a QB throw an accurate pass.

 

Almost everyone finally gets that EJ isn't cutting it. Almost everyone.

[Captain Hindsight]

Marrone is treading some dangerous waters if you ask me. This has Mularkey and Holcomb written all over it. To give up on a high investment this early rarely works out for the club/coach/player. This is a desperate move by a desperate coach and if it doesn't work, heads will roll.

[John from Riverside]

I think its gonna be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

EJ Manuel is Marrone's draft picked QB.....but he also owes it to the rest of the team to put a winning team on the field. Lets not forget there is a change in ownership issue here and that we just gave up quite a bit for Sammy Watkins (to Mike Pettine no less)

 

I think this stems much furhter then just this past game. You can even take this further back to when Thad Lewis was QBing this team after EJ Manuel got hurt.....is it me or did Thad seem to have much more latitude in this "conservative" offense then EJ Manuel did.....like one of them had training wheels and the other one had the keys to the car?

 

Now....for some inexplicable reason Thad's play fell off and he was released.....but I still think this logic is sound.

 

- You cannot keep running a base offense when the other team is just daring you to pass.....leaving targets wide open and making sue our running game does not get on track

- You cannot have a mutiny from the receivers when they are being underutilized, having their "catch radius" tested time and time again, etc etc. It looked to me like frustration was about to bubble over here.

- This team this year was not biult around "lets bring along our young qb" the minute you traded away that pick for Sammy Watkins and combined it with change in ownership....it was about "we seriously have not made the playoffs in 14 years" "we dont want to be attached to that when the Pegula's take over"

 

If anything Marrone might have SAVED his job by not being so stubborn that he went down with his struggling young QB.

 

By the way I am in no way giving up on EJ Manuel....something is not clicking with him.......I still have hope that light will turn on.

[papazoid]

the only thing that prevents Doug & Doug from getting fired at seasons end is making the playoffs.

 

it's painfully obvious they will not make the playoffs with EJ.

 

there are plenty of other reasons the Doug's get fired besides mishandling the QB position:

 

#1- QB situation - stayed ALL-IN with EJ, Thad & Tuel. brought in Orton so late missed all of camp and preseason.

 

#2- Traded away next years #1 draft pick. mortgaged the future.

 

#3- Traded away Stevie Johnson yet carry $10 million in salary cap DEAD MONEY.

 

#4- replaced the 70th ranked LG with the 65th ranked LG.

 

#5- stood pat at TE by resigning a mediocre receiving TE Chandler who can't block.

 

#6- got totally played by Jairus Byrd's agent. lost your ALL-Pro player for nothing in return.

 

#7- questionable 2nd round 2014 pick.

 

#8- Coaching - team undisciplined as evidenced by penalties.

 

#9- Coaching - clock and timeout mismanagement.

 

#10- Coaching - OL can't pick up stunts.

 

absent the playoffs, the two dougs are GONE after the season. Russ survives for one more year then Kim takes over.

[Mr. WEO]

Through 14 games of real game action for both players:

 

Manuel - 256 for 437 (58.6%), 2,810 yards (6.4 ypa) , 16 tds, 12 ints, 3 rushing tds, 7 fumbles, 3 Game winnng drives, 6-8 record as a starter. http://www.pro-footb.../M/ManuEJ00.htm

 

Losman - 198 for 366 (54.1%), 2,254 yards (6.2 ypa), 12 tds, 12 ints, 1 rushing td, 0 GWDs, 9 fumbles, 3-10 W-L record. http://www.pro-footb...mJ.00/gamelog//

 

Losman also was older (he was 23 and didn't play as a rookie). He was far, far worse than EJ was. But the Bills stuck with him in his 3rd season and got better as the season progressed. I think EJ was off to a better start than Losman. That's why I wanted them to ride this out a little longer.

 

Kyle Orton completeld 51% of his passes and threw 9 tds and 13 ints through his 15 games. http://www.pro-footb.../O/OrtoKy00.htm

 

 

 

Obviously, I disagree. IF this blows up, I don't think he will ever get another head coaching job in the NFL. He pulled the plug on a 1st round QB he selected after 14 games. For a very average, more importantly, older option.

 

 

 

What I am arguing is why should we keep a coach who couldn't develop a QB he drafted and benched him after just 14 games. There's no way Whaley just drafted Manuel without Marrone being fully on board.

 

 

 

You're right. How could we ever question Nate Hackett? He was amazing in the Big East.

 

I'm sure Manuel won't have benefitted from learning under Chip Kelly, Andy Reid, Norv Turner.

 

SO the Bills "mangled" the handling of Losman (who was "far,far worse" than EJ, per you), yet they also "stuck with him".

 

Then of course, they got rid of him when the second HC realized what the guy before him already concluded...JP sucked.

 

RJ was terrible and clueless--worse than JP, but they still kept putting him in there anyway. Only his uncommon frailty kept him out of the starting job, despite his awfulness.

 

Look, as others have pointed out, what this all proves is that the Bills don't "give up" on their young QBs too soon---they simply realize (a bit late,actually) that they are very poor judges of young QB talent. ANd that has extended over at least 3 FO administrations.

 

You're upset and losing your mind. Maybe this will be better for EJ in the long run. Why can't you just entertain that thought for a bit?

[A Dog Named Kelso]

Whoa, are we both watching the same team?

 

While I agree with the OP about firing this staff of clowns. I think it goes much further then just benching the 2nd year QB who hasn't even played a full 16 games yet.

 

How about the fact that the HC is a supposed O line guru that has no clue as to what a talented OG looks like. Last season Colin Brown got the start at LG, and was cut after 6 games. This year its Chris Williams and his bad back, and Pears moves from RT to RG, and both OG positions have been a comedy of errors.

 

The QB situation last year as the team kept 3 rookies on the roster, and no seasoned vet. No QB coach, and no senior NFL assistant to help out the first year OC. Now that OC is in his second year, and he is sucking worse then EJ. He should have kept the simplified offensive game plan and kept running the ball. Only now without better play at the OG position he can't do that this year.

 

This coaching staff is a joke, and WR Mike Williams stated that the teams WR's prepared all week to see "off" & zone coverage and Houston's secondary was previously letting receivers catch balls underneath, and then try and strip the ball to get a turnover. The Bills didn't change up the offense until late in the second half when the Bills OC finally realized they were in "press man" coverage. Williams words, we got the calls for off coverage and zone, and when they are playing man it tends not to work. Unreal! Seriously, the Bills coaches didn't even make that adjustment at half time?

 

http://www.buffalobi...bb-c911b4607d09

 

 

I can't wait until October when Pegs takes over, and looks at the mess he paid 1.4 Billion dollars for.Things will change. The Bills need a viable NFL experienced offensive coordinator, and one who actually knows how to build a winning offense.

 

They tried and the Vet got hurt. The only other option would have been to keep Leinart but lets be honest, he was hardly a "seasoned" vet. Who would you have brought in?

[peterpan]

How is it refreshing? It's the same move the Bills have done over and over again with young QBs. They pulled Losman his 2nd year and 4th year. They pulled Trent in his 3rd year. They pull RJ early.

 

This is the definition of a Bills move. A different move would have been to stay with the QB you deemed good enough to draft in the 1st round 2 years ago. SOS.

 

No, the difference is that EJ is most likely done with the Bills, and the NFL, for good.

 

Its refreshing knowing (or maybe I am hoping?) that I wont have to sit through 28 more game of EJ manual football over the rest of this season and next.

 

Its refreshing to have a coach with the Balls to pull a terrible QB when they see it, and not sink the entire team because you are stubborn.

 

Saying they should stick with a terrible QB because they used to think he was good is foolish. He stinks. What you gave up for him is already gone - we cant go back and un-draft him, so just deal with your current predicament and bench him.

 

They did and that is very refreshing.

[C.Biscuit97]

If the Left Tackle got beat for 5 sacks, you'd want him replaced. If you CB gave up 3 TDs, same.

 

That's how bad EJ was the last 2 weeks. How is it any different? Everyone should suffer until we find out if this guy HAS a light that MAY go on? EJ was not alone in failing the last 2 weeks, but he was the leader and had ultimate control of the outcome.

 

Next.

 

Not if they are first round picks. Eric Fisher hasn't been great for the Chiefs but they are going to let him play through it. A first round pick should be given a longer leash than a less drafted guy or journeyman veteran.

 

The thing is, the QB switches have always worked! The better player got onto the field. The fact that the replacement wasn't the answer is beside the point; they gave the team a better chance to win. None of the guys who were replaced did anything after leaving the Bills. Indeed, they were even worse.

 

As for the QB W-L stat, I honestly don't put any stock in it. I mean, I barely put any stock in won-loss records for starting pitchers.

 

Finally, we'll have to agree to disagree about Hackett. I think he's OK.

 

Personally, I've always hated daddy boy's coaches. They are given opportunities that a lot of better coaches are not. Lane Kiffin got head coach jobs proving nothing. Same with Kyle Shanahan. What has Hackett proven?

 

If Norv Turner was EJ's OC and he decided EJ was done, I'd accept it more. But I'm sorry. I don't believe in Hackett's resume to say he isn't part of the problem.

 

Marrone is treading some dangerous waters if you ask me. This has Mularkey and Holcomb written all over it. To give up on a high investment this early rarely works out for the club/coach/player. This is a desperate move by a desperate coach and if it doesn't work, heads will roll.

 

Well stated.

[dave mcbride]

Not if they are first round picks. Eric Fisher hasn't been great for the Chiefs but they are going to let him play through it. A first round pick should be given a longer leash than a less drafted guy or journeyman veteran.

 

 

 

Personally, I've always hated daddy boy's coaches. They are given opportunities that a lot of better coaches are not. Lane Kiffin got head coach jobs proving nothing. Same with Kyle Shanahan. What has Hackett proven?

 

If Norv Turner was EJ's OC and he decided EJ was done, I'd accept it more. But I'm sorry. I don't believe in Hackett's resume to say he isn't part of the problem.

 

 

 

Well stated.

My god man. He's terrible right now and hurting the team. I honestly think he has the yips. Again: http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr .

Edited September 30, 2014 by dave mcbride

[A Dog Named Kelso]

I agree about W-L record for QB. But don't forget that EJ lost 2 games where he left the field with the lead (NE & ATL) and got credited for a loss in the Cleveland game where he was leading us to take the lead.

 

And my whole point is switching QBs is such a Bills type move, which haven't worked for 14 years. For once, I'd like to see the opposite. Again, I hope Orton proves me wrong. But I've seen this story too many times. And to give EJ a college OC (and it wasn't Chip Kelly or Kevin Sumlin either) was putting him behind the 8 ball to begin with.

 

No, as has been pointed out switching QBs too late is a Bills move. This move shows they will not sacrifice the team if a player in not ready just because he is a first round pick. You should be applauding that.

[Canadian Bills Fan]

Anyone think this decision might have come from higher up than Marrone?

 

CBF

[dave mcbride]

Personally, I've always hated daddy boy's coaches. They are given opportunities that a lot of better coaches are not. Lane Kiffin got head coach jobs proving nothing. Same with Kyle Shanahan. What has Hackett proven?

 

 

That means that you're prejudging (i.e., prejudiced, literally). Some coaches' sons are fine. Belichik is the son of a coach. So are the Harbaughs. Every individual is different. Let's see how the offense does now with a professional-level (albeit still-just-average) QB.

[BillsVet]

Well, if anyone needs more proof that this was absolutely the right move, all you have to do is go to the top of this thread. It's now official.

 

If you take the games EJ's finished for Buffalo, then Marrone's career record as a HC is 6-8, which is the same as Belichick's first 14 games in 1991 with Cleveland. Ergo, Marrone and Belichick are the same.

 

And people want to fire Marrone? Makes no sense. No sense at all. Doug Marrone's done more in his life than most people who post on TBD, so anyone who criticizes him is clearly not bright.

[hondo in seattle]

I want him fired for bailing on the guy he selected after less than 16 starts.

 

Why should we ever trust him to draft and develop a qb again?

 

How close are you to EJ? Personally, I'm not convinced that this isn't the best thing for Manuel. Besides throwing poorly in Houston, EJ looked downright hangdog and it appears some of the players were losing faith in him.

 

I like EJ but have to concede that Orton probably gives us the better chance of winning right now. But I also wonder if EJ might also benefit.

[Section242]

EJ was awful the last two weeks. The point of switching QB's is that if they don't win he's fired anyways.

 

As for the idea of Kevin Sumlin, all in.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

betting the op is correct. No playoffs and Marrone can justifyibly be fired, so could anyone in the front office. The way the qb situation has been handled by the whole organization is pretty bad in retrospect:

 

1. Cut all the QBs on the roster

2. Draft a qb in the first round, he is hand picked based on a Whaley/nix/Marrone road show and then pick up a udFA as well as add an injury prone kolb

3. Revolving door through 2013 preseason with Thad, young, Leinart (they do this with Palmer the next season too)

4. No adjustment after kolb predictably went down to get the vet

5. Start ej as rookie after declaring him as a "project" after the draft

6. Put Teul in Cleveland game and he looked horrendously unprepared and lost

7. Brought in Thad and very shortly afterwards started him

8. Still no vet through 2014 offseason

9. New qb coach in offseason proving even more eyes on ej

10. Ej declared unquestioned starter

11. Draft a wr with the 2014 and 2015 first round pick and no qbs

12. Dixson is the only new qb brought in and barely gets a preseason snap then cut

13. Both backups cut including one that actually won a couple games after preseason

14. Orton brought in for large sum as back up after preseason is over

15. Ej is benched after going 2-2

16. Start Otron who will likely replace ej as the worst performing qb in the league, because that is who he always has been.

 

That is not a good story no matter who is telling it.

 

Hackett is culpable for not figuring out how to make use of all these track star superstar athletes no matter what the situation. If Christian ponder can do something with Harvin, or Patterson, jeeeze gotta be able to get something to sammy outside of a slant. I also firmly believe there is more than an accuracy issue at work. I believe the timing and choreography of the offense is not made for a young team. The o line still can't pick up stunts. This was last years problem v Tampa. It's not new!!!

 

As far as Manuel, I hoped his strong arm and athleticism would lead somewhere. I don't get why his first and second games as a pro seemed more fluid than his last two. Some Throws in particular v the pats stand out as super accurate. I mean his benching ultimately is his fault, but I blame coaches that the guy looks worse now than when he first started. If the plan was supposed to be to get a vet to keep the seat warm while grooming all the shortcoming out of him, they should have maintained that plan when Kolb went out.

 

Now the franchise needs to reboot again. Whether EJM ever had a chance of getting good to great for buf it can't be anymore right?

 

Has any qb been benched and come back to be great on the same team?

 

Frankly I don't see this staff ever successfully "grooming" a qb so they will need to draft a manning/luck type to actually get the franchise guy teams need in today's game either with a high pick or dumb luck.

 

Lastly.... If Orton sucks, which is more likely than not.... Now what do they do? They can't bring EJM back his confidence is surely shot. Bring back Thad?

 

[Buftex]

I want him fired for bailing on the guy he selected after less than 16 starts.

 

Why should we ever trust him to draft and develop a qb again?

 

Benching does not necessarily equal "bailing".

 

C Biscuit97, I am have behind EJ all the way, but I still think this is actually a very wise move on Marrones' part. I know it has been referred to elsewhere, but the "body language" of the the skill players on that offense last Sunday was screaming frustration, with the QB. Sure, it is Marrone's job to develop the QB (or to make sure it is being done), but he also has responsibility to the other guys on that roster, and not to be too corny, but to Bills fans, to not write off a season, 4 games in, because one guy is seemingly holding them back.

 

I also don't buy into the whole narritive, as the national media seems to be writing it, that the Bills are necessarily "writing off" EJ Manuel. They have a tough match-up next week against the Lions, and EJ did nothing the last two weeks to suggest that he would be able to play well, with the kind of pass rush that the Lions bring. Who knows if Orton will fare much better? But they have to try something...

[hondo in seattle]

Is anyone else old enough to remember when Tom Landry used to alternate between Craig Morton and Roger Staubach? Landry went to the Super Bowl with both those QBs. There's no coaching rule that says you have to stay with the same QB forever. Yep, fans and players both like continuity under center. But it's not the right answer for every circumstance.

 

I won't say Marrone is a great coach - that remains to be seen. But this is the right move at the right time. EJ seems to be regressing while Orton has been progressing with his understanding of the offense.