EJ benched, Orton to start.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

Fitz was certainly not "good enough". He can give thanks to JJ Watt and all of the missed opportunities by EJ and the Bills offense. With competent NFL quarterbacking from the Bills last Sunday, the game is not even close. Fitz isn't good enough as an NFL starter, end of story. Does rehash really taste that good?

Several NFL professionals disagree with you. He is a low to middling starter. If he has the correct situation he is very good. If he was asked to do what EJ is asked to do with a good defense a team can win. Look at the people complaining that Hackett asked EJ to throw 44 times, why would you want Fitz to do that(which he was forced to do in Buffalo), its not his strength. I'll bet Fitz can run the read-option as well as anyone.

Edited October 1, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso

[26CornerBlitz]

 

Several NFL professionals disagree with you. He is a low to middling starter. If he has the correct situation he is very good. If he was asked to do what EJ is asked to do with a good defense a team can win. Look at the people complaining that Hackett asked EJ to throw 44 times, why would you want Fitz to do that(which he was forced to do in Buffalo), its not his strength. I'll bet Fitz can run the read-option as well as anyone.

Guess he's never found the correct situation because he's never been good. That's why he's on a third team in three years for a total of five and counting. He stinks.

[The Big Cat]

Guess he's never found the correct situation because he's never been good. That's why he's on a third team in three years for a total of five and counting. He stinks.

 

Well, it's chicken or egg, right?

 

Is he on five teams because he stinks? Or is he on five teams because nearly 20% of the league has found him to provide some value?

 

I contend that if he stunk as bad as you say he does, he wouldn't have started for two teams, let alone five.

[Fan in Chicago]

One of the reasons for those picks is he was almost always playing from behind(horrible defense).

 

How then do you explain the interceptions this past Sunday when the Watt-led D was doing such a great job ?

 

Well, it's chicken or egg, right?

 

Is he on five teams because he stinks? Or is he on five teams because nearly 20% of the league has found him to provide some value?

 

I contend that if he stunk as bad as you say he does, he wouldn't have started for two teams, let alone five.

 

We have to agree to disagree. Fitz had a lot of moxy but his range was limited plus the aforementioned INTs would drive me insane. He is, like Orton, an ideal backup who can win a few games but unlikely to lead a team to the playoffs.

[Utah John]

In my view the Bills have taken EJ back to where he should have been at the start of 2013. Sitting behind a veteran, and learning. I don't see a lot of difference between Orton and Kolb regarding talent level, so starting now EJ is back to being the future QB of the team. Where he should have been all along. Remember last year when Kolb got hurt there was a carousel of QB candidates through the Bills' camp, looking for the Kolb replacement. The Bills couldn't find anyone adequate so they tossed EJ into the fire. Now they're pulling him back out.

 

I don't know if EJ has what it takes. I think he has the arm but he's afraid to use it. I think he's smart enough to learn the system. I question his moxie. What I do know is this, that he was never going to become successful by continuing to fail, and that's all he's prepared to do now. If he sits for the rest of this year, and maybe next year, that will still be less time on the bench than Aaron Rogers had sitting behind Bret Favre. He will still be a young man with a great deal of athletic potential.

 

The failure of the Bills organization in this is not necessarily in drafting EJ, it's in not securing a replacement for Kolb, and then not having game plans that fit EJ's abilities. For all the criticism of the Texans game plan, i.e. too much passing, keep in mind those passes were open, but both the passer and the receivers failed to convert. With better skilled players the game plan was fine, and would have been pretty smart since the Texans were focused on stopping the run. So where was the adjustment to realize the passes wouldn't work, so it was time to switch to a run-centric offense? Hackett is a bigger problem than EJ.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

How then do you explain the interceptions this past Sunday when the Watt-led D was doing such a great job ?

You mean that fantastic play by Mckelvin or a ball knocked up in the air by a linesmen? Context matters.

The initial point was if the team wins no one cares about the ints. Farve and Romo are prime examples.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

and THIS is why i refused to get excited after week two.

 

Fool me once, shame on you.

 

Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

Fool me 15 years in a row, I must have eaten lead as a child.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

In my view the Bills have taken EJ back to where he should have been at the start of 2013. Sitting behind a veteran, and learning. I don't see a lot of difference between Orton and Kolb regarding talent level, so starting now EJ is back to being the future QB of the team. Where he should have been all along. Remember last year when Kolb got hurt there was a carousel of QB candidates through the Bills' camp, looking for the Kolb replacement. The Bills couldn't find anyone adequate so they tossed EJ into the fire. Now they're pulling him back out.

 

I don't know if EJ has what it takes. I think he has the arm but he's afraid to use it. I think he's smart enough to learn the system. I question his moxie. What I do know is this, that he was never going to become successful by continuing to fail, and that's all he's prepared to do now. If he sits for the rest of this year, and maybe next year, that will still be less time on the bench than Aaron Rogers had sitting behind Bret Favre. He will still be a young man with a great deal of athletic potential.

 

The failure of the Bills organization in this is not necessarily in drafting EJ, it's in not securing a replacement for Kolb, and then not having game plans that fit EJ's abilities. For all the criticism of the Texans game plan, i.e. too much passing, keep in mind those passes were open, but both the passer and the receivers failed to convert. With better skilled players the game plan was fine, and would have been pretty smart since the Texans were focused on stopping the run. So where was the adjustment to realize the passes wouldn't work, so it was time to switch to a run-centric offense? Hackett is a bigger problem than EJ.

I completely agree.

 

I do not really blame the organization for back-filling Kolb during the season, only because I can't think of a worth replacement. That said, Kolb was the wrong choice and Fitz should have been retained.

[26CornerBlitz]

Well, it's chicken or egg, right?

 

Is he on five teams because he stinks? Or is he on five teams because nearly 20% of the league has found him to provide some value?

 

I contend that if he stunk as bad as you say he does, he wouldn't have started for two teams, let alone five.

 

To be clear my opinion is he stinks as a starting QB. As a backup QB, he's fine.

[GG]

Noted. It's still a horrendous decision and throw nonetheless

 

Why didn't you show the first INT - double pump to Stevie

[A Dog Named Kelso]

Why didn't you show the first INT - double pump to Stevie

The choice of INTs or who threw them is not relevant based on the initial point.

Edited October 1, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso

[John from Riverside]

I agree with Utah's assessment in whole.......

 

This is the thing.....EJ Manuel has such great physical traits that the fact that he isnt USING them is a huge huge red flag. He simply was not ready to be the starter and should have been holding a clipboard last year......when Kolb went down he should have been holding a clipboard behind another vet brought in....there is just SO MUCH pressure to start a first round pick right away. Marrone and the Doug's should have ignored that pressure.

 

I think this week your gonna see WR's catching balls in stride....they are going to be where they can make plays on them....they are going to be on time.....and that in turn is going to back off teams from loading the run box.

 

PLEASE dont hate EJ Manuel when you see that.....because he might well be able to do that same thing for us down the road.......we cannot give up on him. He is just not ready to be under center and now should be treated as a true project QB

[Orton's Arm]

 

@Sportsnet: #Bills blew it benching Manuel. http://ow.ly/C9HDh

 

 

"

 

My jaw just dropped. First, because the stats they're using are the wrong ones. Most of them can be inflated by dumping the ball off short all the time--which is exactly what Manuel does. And they're using winning percentage to evaluate QBs? Seriously? Did they stop and ask what the Colts' winning percentage was the year before Peyton Manning was put on the field for those first 14 starts? Were a rookie Peyton Manning or a rookie Drew Brees supposed to immediately elevate their respective teams--which had each gone 1-15 the year before drafting the QB in question--to lofty heights? If I was looking for the worst possible statistical tools with which to measure a QB's performance, I'd use the same tools they did.

 

Carson Palmer was chosen first overall. As a rookie, they sat him on the bench behind Jon Kitna. At first, Palmer didn't look great in practice. But as the season progressed, he looked progressively better. By the end of the year, those who watched him play noticed he looked really good. Going into his second year, his coach announced that Palmer would be the starter.

 

Compare that to EJ Manuel. As a second year player, Manuel has been performing far less well than Kyle Orton. "In practice against no defenders [the receivers often have] to wait for EJs passes while it pretty much never happens with Orton."

 

If I'm a general manager, why would I use a first or second round pick on a QB who can't hit a moving target? Because the QB has great physical gifts? Because he interviews well? Because I've conned myself into believing that he can somehow be "developed" into having the accuracy and information-processing ability he never displayed in college? A GM who thinks that way is almost begging for a first round bust!

 

This past draft, the Bills passed up the chance to draft Bridgewater, and the chance to try to trade up for Bortles, presumably because they were committed to Manuel as "the plan." The sooner they abandon that kind of misguided, incompetent thinking, the sooner they'll be able to draft a real quarterback of the future. Someone who has an actual chance of filling Jim Kelly's very large shoes.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I agree with Utah's assessment in whole.......

 

This is the thing.....EJ Manuel has such great physical traits that the fact that he isnt USING them is a huge huge red flag. He simply was not ready to be the starter and should have been holding a clipboard last year......when Kolb went down he should have been holding a clipboard behind another vet brought in....there is just SO MUCH pressure to start a first round pick right away. Marrone and the Doug's should have ignored that pressure.

 

I think this week your gonna see WR's catching balls in stride....they are going to be where they can make plays on them....they are going to be on time.....and that in turn is going to back off teams from loading the run box.

 

PLEASE dont hate EJ Manuel when you see that.....because he might well be able to do that same thing for us down the road.......we cannot give up on him. He is just not ready to be under center and now should be treated as a true project QB

 

Sounds like this:

 

The son runs downstairs and opens his gifts on Christmas morning. The one in the big silver box is exactly what he needs. Yippee! Hooray!

 

His dad pries it from his fingers. "Sorry, son. This shiny new thing isn't ready yet. You can't play with it for at least three years."

 

"Dad, I'm going to get fired before then."

[Orton's Arm]

To be clear my opinion is he stinks as a starting QB. As a backup QB, he's fine.

 

I don't consider Kyle Orton good enough to be the long-term answer at quarterback. But I think he is good enough to be a short-term stopgap. With a Kyle Orton on your team, you don't have to be desperate to draft a first round quarterback right away. You can afford to wait a year or two, until the right first round QB comes along.

 

The same could also be said about Ryan Fitzpatrick. Unfortunately, the Bills blew the opportunity such a quarterback represented. The first mistake they made was giving him reasonably good long-term starter money. (This was a few games after Gaiely had unveiled a new, Fitz-friendly offense; but before defenses had had the chance to figure out how to stop that offense. It represented the one moment in time when Fitz's negotiating position was at its very strongest.)

 

The Bills then realized Fitz wasn't the long-term answer at quarterback. Yet he was being paid like he was. At that point, it would have been okay for them to continue to overpay him until they had a capable replacement on the roster. Alternatively, they could have released him, and gone without a starting quality QB for a year or two in an effort to obtain good draft position. Draft position which would then have been used on a QB. But they did neither of these things. They chose to get out from under Fitz's contract right away. That seemingly put them into desperation mode. They apparently committed themselves to using a first round pick on a QB that upcoming draft, regardless of whether any QBs deserved to be chosen in the first two rounds.

 

The Bills need to avoid repeating this emotional roller coaster with Orton. They should not allow themselves to get so high on Orton that they anoint him the long-term answer. Nor should they get so low on him that they feel a sense of desperation to immediately use a first round pick on his replacement. Orton gives them the opportunity to wait until the right college QB comes along. The right QB will have demonstrated a high degree of accuracy, and considerable proficiency for quickly processing on-field information. If a guy like that isn't available in the upcoming draft, then wait a year. Or even two years. Orton can hold down the fort in the meantime.

[The Big Cat]

I don't consider Kyle Orton good enough to be the long-term answer at quarterback. But I think he is good enough to be a short-term stopgap. With a Kyle Orton on your team, you don't have to be desperate to draft a first round quarterback right away. You can afford to wait a year or two, until the right first round QB comes along.

 

The same could also be said about Ryan Fitzpatrick. Unfortunately, the Bills blew the opportunity such a quarterback represented. The first mistake they made was giving him reasonably good long-term starter money. (This was a few games after Gaiely had unveiled a new, Fitz-friendly offense; but before defenses had had the chance to figure out how to stop that offense. It represented the one moment in time when Fitz's negotiating position was at its very strongest.)

 

The Bills then realized Fitz wasn't the long-term answer at quarterback. Yet he was being paid like he was. At that point, it would have been okay for them to continue to overpay him until they had a capable replacement on the roster. Alternatively, they could have released him, and gone without a starting quality QB for a year or two in an effort to obtain good draft position. Draft position which would then have been used on a QB. But they did neither of these things. They chose to get out from under Fitz's contract right away. That seemingly put them into desperation mode. They apparently committed themselves to using a first round pick on a QB that upcoming draft, regardless of whether any QBs deserved to be chosen in the first two rounds.

 

The Bills need to avoid repeating this emotional roller coaster with Orton. They should not allow themselves to get so high on Orton that they anoint him the long-term answer. Nor should they get so low on him that they feel a sense of desperation to immediately use a first round pick on his replacement. Orton gives them the opportunity to wait until the right college QB comes along. The right QB will have demonstrated a high degree of accuracy, and considerable proficiency for quickly processing on-field information. If a guy like that isn't available in the upcoming draft, then wait a year. Or even two years. Orton can hold down the fort in the meantime.

 

Sounds like you agree with me: Kyle Orton still starting for the Bills at this point in the season...in 2016...is a very real possibility.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

I don't consider Kyle Orton good enough to be the long-term answer at quarterback. But I think he is good enough to be a short-term stopgap. With a Kyle Orton on your team, you don't have to be desperate to draft a first round quarterback right away. You can afford to wait a year or two, until the right first round QB comes along.

 

The same could also be said about Ryan Fitzpatrick. Unfortunately, the Bills blew the opportunity such a quarterback represented. The first mistake they made was giving him reasonably good long-term starter money. (This was a few games after Gaiely had unveiled a new, Fitz-friendly offense; but before defenses had had the chance to figure out how to stop that offense. It represented the one moment in time when Fitz's negotiating position was at its very strongest.)

 

The Bills then realized Fitz wasn't the long-term answer at quarterback. Yet he was being paid like he was. At that point, it would have been okay for them to continue to overpay him until they had a capable replacement on the roster. Alternatively, they could have released him, and gone without a starting quality QB for a year or two in an effort to obtain good draft position. Draft position which would then have been used on a QB. But they did neither of these things. They chose to get out from under Fitz's contract right away. That seemingly put them into desperation mode. They apparently committed themselves to using a first round pick on a QB that upcoming draft, regardless of whether any QBs deserved to be chosen in the first two rounds.

 

The Bills need to avoid repeating this emotional roller coaster with Orton. They should not allow themselves to get so high on Orton that they anoint him the long-term answer. Nor should they get so low on him that they feel a sense of desperation to immediately use a first round pick on his replacement. Orton gives them the opportunity to wait until the right college QB comes along. The right QB will have demonstrated a high degree of accuracy, and considerable proficiency for quickly processing on-field information. If a guy like that isn't available in the upcoming draft, then wait a year. Or even two years. Orton can hold down the fort in the meantime.

 

I think the Bills management agree with you. I would say why don't we see what he does on the field before we decide his worth. He is only 31, if he plays extremely well he may be a longer term(greater than 5 years) answer.

[Utah John]

Let's see if Orton can play pretty well for this year and maybe even next year, while EJ figures things out and gets past the failure label people want to stick on him. THEN let's see what EJ can do. There's no reason not to draft QBs in 2015 and 2016 -- some GMs say you should draft a QB every year -- rather than hoping EJ is eventually ready to go; but EJ could be ready to go in a year or so, and he has some of the attributes you want in a starting QB. Like I said earlier, this just takes EJ back to where he should have been all through 2013 and this year too, sitting behind a veteran QB and learning the game.

[dave mcbride]

How then do you explain the interceptions this past Sunday when the Watt-led D was doing such a great job ?

 

To be fair, neither of those INTs were really bad. The first was actually caught by Hopkins; it was a fine pass. McKelvin just happened to make the play of his career on that play. The second one was tipped. Hard to criticize the qb for that - so much of that is bad luck.

 

I don't consider Kyle Orton good enough to be the long-term answer at quarterback. But I think he is good enough to be a short-term stopgap. With a Kyle Orton on your team, you don't have to be desperate to draft a first round quarterback right away. You can afford to wait a year or two, until the right first round QB comes along.

 

The same could also be said about Ryan Fitzpatrick. Unfortunately, the Bills blew the opportunity such a quarterback represented. The first mistake they made was giving him reasonably good long-term starter money. (This was a few games after Gaiely had unveiled a new, Fitz-friendly offense; but before defenses had had the chance to figure out how to stop that offense. It represented the one moment in time when Fitz's negotiating position was at its very strongest.)

 

The Bills then realized Fitz wasn't the long-term answer at quarterback. Yet he was being paid like he was. At that point, it would have been okay for them to continue to overpay him until they had a capable replacement on the roster. Alternatively, they could have released him, and gone without a starting quality QB for a year or two in an effort to obtain good draft position. Draft position which would then have been used on a QB. But they did neither of these things. They chose to get out from under Fitz's contract right away. That seemingly put them into desperation mode. They apparently committed themselves to using a first round pick on a QB that upcoming draft, regardless of whether any QBs deserved to be chosen in the first two rounds.

 

The Bills need to avoid repeating this emotional roller coaster with Orton. They should not allow themselves to get so high on Orton that they anoint him the long-term answer. Nor should they get so low on him that they feel a sense of desperation to immediately use a first round pick on his replacement. Orton gives them the opportunity to wait until the right college QB comes along. The right QB will have demonstrated a high degree of accuracy, and considerable proficiency for quickly processing on-field information. If a guy like that isn't available in the upcoming draft, then wait a year. Or even two years. Orton can hold down the fort in the meantime.

Well, you never know. Sometimes 4th rounders with a lot of experience can blossom in their 30s. Just sayin'. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GannRi00.htm

[Koufax]

I really hope EJ puts it together, blossoms from the #2 spot on the depth chart, and is ready for his second chance when it presents itself. He has lots of physical tools and seems like a nice and dedicated guy.

 

That said, however, he has shown no where near enough decision making ability and accuracy to be good in the NFL, two of the most important traits for a QB. Those can each improve somewhat while playing, but he first needs to take some steps on each.

 

We know we aren't taking a top QB in next year's draft, so he still has a 28 game window to battle people like Orton and whoever we might take in a lower round next year and prove his worth, and he will get a second chance at some point. Lots of QBs take some time to develop, so here's hoping we win a lot with Orton while EJ gets better at throwing accuracy and decision making.