The Dougs' Accountability Thread

[GG]

In looking at the first page of this forum, many topics involve the obvious player. And while we can leave the debate on whether EJ will or will not succeed in those threads, I though little conversation was made about the front office and coaching moves that have put him in his current predicament.

 

As a crap throwing monkey remarked, EJ is not put in a position to succeed because it's too easy to target his deficiencies, which he can't at this point of his career to overcome.

 

So just as Whaley gets a ton of credit for managing most of the roster, he gets very little flak for QB decisions since 2012, which have all blown up so far. He can't hide behind Buddy Nix prior to June 2013, because as head of pro player personnel his input was critical in the veteran QB decisions.

 

His failures in that area are directly responsible for throwing EJ into the fire much sooner than he should have been. And continuing the grooming process at this pace, is just as likely to ruin EJ as it is to lead to his improvement.

 

They can't have it both ways. They can't claim that he has special talents that need grooming, but also expect him to lead a playoff-caliber team. They can't expect the rest of the players to put their heads in the fire, only to be content with EJ running out of bounds to protect himself.

 

If the plan was similar to Jax & Raiders, who are plainly going through a rebuild, then it would be acceptable to go along with a QB learning curve. It's not as acceptable for a team that's built to challenge for a division title, everywhere but the QB slot.

 

If we fall back on EJ's project status - then we have to admit that he wasn't ready to start last year. And he never really won the starting battle. He slid into it thanks to a wet mat. He didn't face any real competition this year, either, and the front office and coaching staff have done everything to shield him from criticism and competition. Yet folks wonder why he doesn't have the same drive and urgency that is common among good QBs.

 

And yes, we shouldn't be thinking that just because Losman, Holcomb, Edwards, & Fitz failed in Buffalo, means that EJ will suffer the same fate, I can't help but remember that many of the same crew who had a hand in the perennial QB misfires are also in charge of EJ's development.

 

So to me, the Dougs are not off the hook, and the Pegula Era cannot start soon enough.

Edited September 26, 2014 by GG

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

If we fall back on EJ's project status - then we have to admit that he wasn't ready to start last year. And he never really won the starting battle. He slid into it thanks to a wet mat. He didn't face any real competition this year, either, and the front office and coaching staff have done everything to shield him from criticism and competition. Yet folks wonder why he doesn't have the same drive and urgency that is common among good QBs.

 

So to me, the Dougs are not off the hook, and the Pegula Era cannot start soon enough.

 

So if we had brought in more competition EJ would be playing better now?? Wow! What did Brady have for competition his first year, Bledsoe was out hurt, he had none the remainder of that year, by the next year they traded him, Brady turned out OK. Either he has drive or not, but whether they had created a more legit training camp battle, likely would make no difference in the outcome. Either you have the drive or you don't, nothing is going to change it.

[starrymessenger]

You can hardly wait for the Pegula era to begin.

Not being from Buffalo and not being a big hockey fan I have no idea the kind of owner Mr Pegula is.

How is he likely to react?

Any thoughts.

[GG]

So if we had brought in more competition EJ would be playing better now?? Wow! What did Brady have for competition his first year, Bledsoe was out hurt, he had none the remainder of that year, by the next year they traded him, Brady turned out OK. Either he has drive or not, but whether they had created a more legit training camp battle, likely would make no difference in the outcome. Either you have the drive or you don't, nothing is going to change it.

 

The genius of Bill Parcells was recognizing each player's motivational spot. He knew that what moved Lawrence Taylor was not the same as what moved Harry Carson.

 

Brady is a special player, so any comparison to him would be futile. But for other QBs have different intensity levels, and some are just more self-motivated than others. I do suspect though, that having a mellow laid back EJ getting the starting job without real competition has impacted how he's played and how the team responds to him.

 

You can hardly wait for the Pegula era to begin.

Not being from Buffalo and not being a big hockey fan I have no idea the kind of owner Mr Pegula is.

How is he likely to react?

Any thoughts.

 

My biggest John Butler jig will be when the Littman/Overdorf shadow exits. Gone will be the days when the team inexplicably cuts productive but expensive vets to meet a hypothetical cash to cap number.

[PromoTheRobot]

You can hardly wait for the Pegula era to begin.

Not being from Buffalo and not being a big hockey fan I have no idea the kind of owner Mr Pegula is.

How is he likely to react?

Any thoughts.

 

Pegula had a misstep early when he gave a blank check to Darcy Regier to sign free agents. That didn't work so they literally gutted the Sabres and are rebuilding from the bottom up. Most observers say the Sabres have the most talented prospects of any NHL team. They have 3 first round picks in the next NHL draft, including two picks that have a legit shot and being the #1 and #2 (Sabres and Islanders.) Suck now to be hopefully amazing later.

 

Sabres fans feel he should have cleaned house as soon as he bought the Sabres, and he probably should have. But don't expect that to happen to the Bills. What he will do is likely hire one or two "football czars" to be his eyes and ears on the team to get their judgement on how things are going. The Sabres have several of those types of people but GM Tim Murray still calls the shots.

 

Bottom line is no one will ever seriously say Terry is cheap. The guy believes in doing everything first class. He will not spare a nickel if his people say they need something. Does that make us a guaranteed winner? No, but it doesn't hurt.

Edited September 26, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[starrymessenger]

Thanks to Promo.

[Maddog69]

I'd hardly call 2-1 and first place in the division a "perdicament"

Edited September 26, 2014 by Maddog69

[BigBuff423]

In looking at the first page of this forum, many topics involve the obvious player. And while we can leave the debate on whether EJ will or will not succeed in those threads, I though little conversation was made about the front office and coaching moves that have put him in his current predicament.

 

As a crap throwing monkey remarked, EJ is not put in a position to succeed because it's too easy to target his deficiencies, which he can't at this point of his career to overcome.

 

So just as Whaley gets a ton of credit for managing most of the roster, he gets very little flak for QB decisions since 2012, which have all blown up so far. He can't hide behind Buddy Nix prior to June 2013, because as head of pro player personnel his input was critical in the veteran QB decisions.

 

His failures in that area are directly responsible for throwing EJ into the fire much sooner than he should have been. And continuing the grooming process at this pace, is just as likely to ruin EJ as it is to lead to his improvement.

 

They can't have it both ways. They can't claim that he has special talents that need grooming, but also expect him to lead a playoff-caliber team. They can't expect the rest of the players to put their heads in the fire, only to be content with EJ running out of bounds to protect himself.

 

If the plan was similar to Jax & Raiders, who are plainly going through a rebuild, then it would be acceptable to go along with a QB learning curve. It's not as acceptable for a team that's built to challenge for a division title, everywhere but the QB slot.

 

If we fall back on EJ's project status - then we have to admit that he wasn't ready to start last year. And he never really won the starting battle. He slid into it thanks to a wet mat. He didn't face any real competition this year, either, and the front office and coaching staff have done everything to shield him from criticism and competition. Yet folks wonder why he doesn't have the same drive and urgency that is common among good QBs.

 

And yes, we shouldn't be thinking that just because Losman, Holcomb, Edwards, & Fitz failed in Buffalo, means that EJ will suffer the same fate, I can't help but remember that many of the same crew who had a hand in the perennial QB misfires are also in charge of EJ's development.

 

So to me, the Dougs are not off the hook, and the Pegula Era cannot start soon enough.

 

I can't say I agree in whole with your observations / statements / conclusions but I will say that I agree, failing to provide an adequate Vet QB is on Whaley's shoulders and more to the point, they should have gone the slow progress route THIS year, the original plan, with the idea to start EJ possibly next year under the assumption they brought in someone like Orton during the Off-Season and not a week before the NFL season kicked off...however, in a passing answer to a question during a presser on Wednesday, someone asked him about the departure of Fitz and Marrone stated he had no bearing on that decision whatsoever, which begs the question how much he had to say about EJ's Draft status as it appears more likely that he is merely doing the best he can with what he has...I'm not saying he did or didn't just that Marrone emphatically answered he had no voice at the table to dismiss or cut Fitz which only leads me to believe DW didn't exactly listen to Marrone, IF he had any concerns about EJ as their future and highly doubt Marrone had any input on which Vet would be targeted in their first season and had no idea about Orton until he was already in the building, so that speaks more to a lack of communication between the Dougs which is also disconcerting....

[hondo in seattle]

I agree that the "Dougs are not off the hook."

 

I just don't think they're on the hook yet.

 

Obviously, they will be held accountable for the performance of the team. If the personnel isn't there, Whaley needs to go. If the players are capable but Marrone still can't produce wins, he needs to go.

 

I'm just not willing to make either of those pronouncements yet. My guess is that the Pegulas aren't ready to make that assessment yet either.

 

As has been pointed out, we're 2-1 right now - and tied for 1st place in the AFCE. Let's see how this plays out before calling for anyone's head.

Edited September 26, 2014 by hondo in seattle

[BigBuff423]

 

 

Pegula had a misstep early when he gave a blank check to Darcy Regier to sign free agents. That didn't work so they literally gutted the Sabres and are rebuilding from the bottom up. Most observers say the Sabres have the most talented prospects of any NHL team. They have 3 first round picks in the next NHL draft, including two picks that have a legit shot and being the #1 and #2 (Sabres and Islanders.) Suck now to be hopefully amazing later.

 

Sabres fans feel he should have cleaned house as soon as he bought the Sabres, and he probably should have. But don't expect that to happen to the Bills. What he will do is likely hire one or two "football czars" to be his eyes and ears on the team to get their judgement on how things are going. The Sabres have several of those types of people but GM Tim Murray still calls the shots.

 

Bottom line is no one will ever seriously say Terry is cheap. The guy believes in doing everything first class. He will not spare a nickel if his people say they need something. Does that make us a guaranteed winner? No, but it doesn't hurt.

 

^^^^^^^^Essentially, absolutely right on IMHO...and I too believe Pegula will err on the side of caution initially and allow an objective set of eyes to evaluate what is truly transpiring at OBD...I don't think Whaley should lose his job, but whomever is doing the QB evaluations, should probably be set aside and a good QB evaluator allowed in the facility...nearly every other aspect has been outstanding when it comes to the last few Drafts and even FA signings, except Chris Williams that is looking more like a true fail, but QBs are the entirety of player assessment in the most prominent single position in a team sport in all of sports and it needs to be done right....so, let's hope the BILLS already have gotten right although I have my serious reservations about that but if they don't I want DW and Marrone to have the balls to come out and say, "Nope, EJ isn't the long-term Franchise QB we thought he would mature into, so now we're scrapping the EJ project and moving on..."

[Dawgg]

In looking at the first page of this forum, many topics involve the obvious player. And while we can leave the debate on whether EJ will or will not succeed in those threads, I though little conversation was made about the front office and coaching moves that have put him in his current predicament.

 

As a crap throwing monkey remarked, EJ is not put in a position to succeed because it's too easy to target his deficiencies, which he can't at this point of his career to overcome.

 

So just as Whaley gets a ton of credit for managing most of the roster, he gets very little flak for QB decisions since 2012, which have all blown up so far. He can't hide behind Buddy Nix prior to June 2013, because as head of pro player personnel his input was critical in the veteran QB decisions.

 

His failures in that area are directly responsible for throwing EJ into the fire much sooner than he should have been. And continuing the grooming process at this pace, is just as likely to ruin EJ as it is to lead to his improvement.

 

They can't have it both ways. They can't claim that he has special talents that need grooming, but also expect him to lead a playoff-caliber team. They can't expect the rest of the players to put their heads in the fire, only to be content with EJ running out of bounds to protect himself.

 

If the plan was similar to Jax & Raiders, who are plainly going through a rebuild, then it would be acceptable to go along with a QB learning curve. It's not as acceptable for a team that's built to challenge for a division title, everywhere but the QB slot.

 

If we fall back on EJ's project status - then we have to admit that he wasn't ready to start last year. And he never really won the starting battle. He slid into it thanks to a wet mat. He didn't face any real competition this year, either, and the front office and coaching staff have done everything to shield him from criticism and competition. Yet folks wonder why he doesn't have the same drive and urgency that is common among good QBs.

 

And yes, we shouldn't be thinking that just because Losman, Holcomb, Edwards, & Fitz failed in Buffalo, means that EJ will suffer the same fate, I can't help but remember that many of the same crew who had a hand in the perennial QB misfires are also in charge of EJ's development.

 

So to me, the Dougs are not off the hook, and the Pegula Era cannot start soon enough.

 

100% accurate. However, lemmings on this board with no semblance of objectivity will continue to absolve this front office of any accountability that is commonplace in other NFL cities.

 

Russ Brandon is more interested in hiring a GM he can "control" than hiring one that could potentially overshadow his role with the team.

[BigBuff423]

 

 

100% accurate. However, lemmings on this board with no semblance of objectivity will continue to absolve this front office of any accountability that is commonplace in other NFL cities.

 

Russ Brandon is more interested in hiring a GM he can "control" than hiring one that could potentially overshadow his role with the team.

 

@bandit...you want to take this one?^^^^

[Canadian Bills Fan]

Pegula had a misstep early when he gave a blank check to Darcy Regier to sign free agents. That didn't work so they literally gutted the Sabres and are rebuilding from the bottom up. Most observers say the Sabres have the most talented prospects of any NHL team. They have 3 first round picks in the next NHL draft, including two picks that have a legit shot and being the #1 and #2 (Sabres and Islanders.) Suck now to be hopefully amazing later.

 

Sabres fans feel he should have cleaned house as soon as he bought the Sabres, and he probably should have. But don't expect that to happen to the Bills. What he will do is likely hire one or two "football czars" to be his eyes and ears on the team to get their judgement on how things are going. The Sabres have several of those types of people but GM Tim Murray still calls the shots.

 

Bottom line is no one will ever seriously say Terry is cheap. The guy believes in doing everything first class. He will not spare a nickel if his people say they need something. Does that make us a guaranteed winner? No, but it doesn't hurt.

 

I wonder if this will help the Bills chances of landing a big name coach if they decide to let Marrone go down the road.

 

 

CBF

[Dean Cain]

OP, you finish the post by saying both Doug's are on the hook. What record do you think they need to preserve their jobs?

[Dan]

In my mind, the only decision that has been truly bad was hiring a completely unproven and inexerienced OC.

[Best Player Available]

 

 

100% accurate. However, lemmings on this board with no semblance of objectivity will continue to absolve this front office of any accountability that is commonplace in other NFL cities.

 

Russ Brandon is more interested in hiring a GM he can "control" than hiring one that could potentially overshadow his role with the team.

First PTR's observations are interesting and could be close to what is correct.

 

The Russ Brandon comment above is interesting. Since IMO it is similar to how this franchise has operated since its inception.

Put the silly Polian arguement with Ralphs daughter aside. Look as to what happened to Butler, and you can see potential mindset that Brandon deverloped under Ralphs wings. it is outdated, never worked, and the reason why a guy like the Tuna would never even consider working in Buffalo because of not having complete control in personel or football operations. Ditto for up and comer Chip Kelly. Every single good personel person or coach was fired sooner of later and not for the right reasons. The names are out there they date back for decades. Pegula will hopefully recognize this. I am unaware of any NFL executive team connections he has but he probably has a plan.

 

To see Littmann go probably on his golden parachute after closing will be great. Overdorff and Brandon may get a very short honeymoon or maybe not. Either way Brandon is a marketing guy, not a football or franchise quality CEO. i woud guess if he stays it would be at a reduced role which he probabaly would not accept.

 

The Dougs are simply replaceable cogs and hopefully can find their niche somewhere someday.

 

[GG]

OP, you finish the post by saying both Doug's are on the hook. What record do you think they need to preserve their jobs?

 

Without factoring extenuating circumstances, if they finish below 7-9, DM is gone. Whaley is probably on a longer leash.

 

In my mind, the only decision that has been truly bad was hiring a completely unproven and inexerienced OC.

 

"Trading" Fitz for Kolb for Orton is up there.

 

Not a Sabres fan(Rangers fan), but I recall that episode with Darcy and that great signing of Ville Leino.

 

Back then it was hailed as a great move for a team on the verge of a Cup run.

[YoloinOhio]

I'd hardly call 2-1 and first place in the division a "perdicament"

Don't muddy this b*$%fest with facts that actually matter. Because, 14 years and TJ Graham and Buddy Nix and wah. We have lots of losses ahead of us to complain about before they happen!

[kota]

Dude we are in year 1.3 of them being in charge. Give it a rest.

[hondo in seattle]

Dude we are in year 1.3 of them being in charge. Give it a rest.

 

Exactly.