FireChan Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 This post is spot on and you have managed very well to pinpoint the major problem with EJ's game... Vet QB's are going to miss the proper reads at times and get off their game a bit while being pressured...Brady and Manning are the best in the business, but both have a history of struggling when intense pressure is brought...especially when that pressure is brought up the middle... There seems to be a a ton of over-analysis concerning EJ considering he just finished his 13th NFL start... The truth is over the past two games, and for most of his 13 game career thus-far, if he simply hits his receiver in stride when he makes the right read on plays the Bills offense would be light-years ahead of where it is now... And some posters wonder why we run on first down a lot. A play like that is gonna lead to a 3 and out 90% of the time.
BillsVet Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Good stuff, as it gives the average joe insight into what actually happens during the game. The Bills had better find a way to get that run game working or it will be another long season for that fans. Perhaps a shorter one for some of the coaches. Hard to run the ball when you're facing 8 in the box with a QB who won't attempt and/or can't complete intermediate to deep passes. In 2011, Buffalo started 5-2 and hosted NYJ in Week 9. The Jets knew Buffalo's offense was built on Fitzpatrick making quick short throws, so they jammed their receivers at the LOS and disrupted that timing. The Bills went 1-8 the rest of the way (including that game) on the way to a 6-10 season. We're already seeing a similar pattern this year. The blueprint for beating Buffalo was written on Sunday so long as Manuel refuses to attempt (and complete) intermediate or longer passes. Because he can't hurt you that way, teams are going to continue selling out to stop the run knowing he's incapable of making them pay through the air. EJ is the key. The OL was bad, but the majority of the blame should be placed on the tentative QB, who it seems the team is losing faith in quickly.
GG Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 The most troubling thing from this analysis and from watching the game is that once the pressure starts coming, EJ gets flustered and misses what look like the easiest of throws. At least on a couple of occasions, if not more, I saw a receiver wide open and EJ threw behind or over him. This is frustrating to watch and quite concerning. This is the closest I have watched a development of a QB as I did not have the Sunday ticket during JP and Trent's early years. So, I am not sure if this 'panic mode' is correctable or not. There is no way an NFL QB can get clean pockets as against the Bears and Dolphins. The QB has to be able to stand tall, step away from pressure, keep eyes downfield and complete passes with defenders coming at him. If we do not see this in EJ's development this year, I doubt it will develop in the future. As of now, I am willing to give him time, but am getting mildly concerned. Forget the slow eyes, welcome to happy feet. There were a handful of plays on which bailed out too soon and outside the Houdini pass to Chandler he did not look downfield when protection broke down, or worse on the designed roll outs. The last drive of the game still drives me nuts. It was a drive like that which got Trentative booted off the team, but we're supposed to believe that it's a learning step for EJ.
Cash Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Hard to run the ball when you're facing 8 in the box with a QB who won't attempt and/or can't complete intermediate to deep passes. In 2011, Buffalo started 5-2 and hosted NYJ in Week 9. The Jets knew Buffalo's offense was built on Fitzpatrick making quick short throws, so they jammed their receivers at the LOS and disrupted that timing. The Bills went 1-8 the rest of the way (including that game) on the way to a 6-10 season. We're already seeing a similar pattern this year. The blueprint for beating Buffalo was written on Sunday so long as Manuel refuses to attempt (and complete) intermediate or longer passes. Because he can't hurt you that way, teams are going to continue selling out to stop the run knowing he's incapable of making them pay through the air. EJ is the key. The OL was bad, but the majority of the blame should be placed on the tentative QB, who it seems the team is losing faith in quickly. The other issue (and this has been said in other threads as well) is that when we do throw deep, it tends to be go routes only. A few successful 15-20 yard square ins will back off the defense pretty well, but too often, our passing playbook seems to be drag routes, curls, go routes, and rollouts, and that's it. It's the intermediate stuff -- think 10-20 yards past the line of scrimmage -- where you really hurt a defense, and it's definitely lacking for us. How much of that is on Hackett and how much on EJ, I don't know. I will say that unlike the Trent Edwards era, we at least have more short throws to WRs or RBs on the move, rather than stationary targets.
Maddog69 Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) Am I missing something, or is no one holding the piss-poor play of the O-line the least bit culpable for the pressure Manuel got? Nope. EJ sucks, don't you get it? Anything bad that happens is 100% EJ's fault. He needs to be absolutely perfect on every throw or he is a bust. This board is a joke. The line played like crap. The coaches did not adjust to SD running stunts, the run game was ineffective. The front office could see the issues on the OL all preseason and did nothing to address it. Sammy Watkins, the greatest WR of all time admitted to "taking a play off". The team had over 100yds in penalties. But we lost solely and exclusively because EJ (in his 14th start) is terrible and will never improve. Give me a break. Edited September 24, 2014 by Maddog69
GG Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Nope. EJ suck, don't you get it? Anything bad that happens is 100% EJ's fault. He needs to be absolutely perfect on every throw or he is a bust. This board is a joke. The like played like crap. The coaches did not adjust to SD running stunts, the run game was ineffective. But we lost solely and exclusively because EJ (in his 14th start) is terrible and will never improve. Actually, they did. Watch the second half, Hackett made adjustments and EJ still didn't make the needed plays.
Captain Caveman Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) How many of EJs decisions are made pre-snap? How many of a more seasoned QBs decisions are made pre-snap? Trust (in himself and teammates & bravado (belief in himself to the extreme) seem to be areas where EJ is lacking. Not sure that those are traits that can be enhanced or learned though. How much of the trust not being there is based on his receivers not being where they're supposed to be. Hard for us to know, but there were at least three throws on Sunday that looked like EJ decisively placed a ball somewhere not near a receiver. Seemed like he was expecting them to be somewhere else. Maybe I'm seeing something that's not there, maybe it's a misread by EJ, or maybe it's a misread by the receiver. We can't tell unfortunately, but I think it's worth consideration, especially when discussing trust. Edited September 24, 2014 by Captain Caveman
Maddog69 Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Actually, they did. Watch the second half, Hackett made adjustments and EJ still didn't make the needed plays. The stunts were still confounding the OL in the second half. And if we are placing blame, lots should go to Hackett. My 11yr old son can tell you what play they are going to run on almost every play when they come up to the line of scrimmage. I personally would have fired Hackett after last year and brought in someone with NFL experience as a play caller. I think Hackett is the biggest issue with the offense.
DC Greg Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Boy that last one where he didn't see Chandler wide open... c'mon EJ.
Big C Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Interesting that Joe B says Gilmore graded positively in coverage. Well enough to give him a positive overall grade for the game.
Bufcomments Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Here are 5 Vines from the last game that highlight his accuracy issues. In each clip the OL holds up nicely and gives him time to throw. He stands tall in the pocket, makes the correct reads, finds the open man, and then....then....he just misfires. His inconsistent play didn't just start last week either. I can excuse a young QB for not picking up a blitz, for not seeing an open receiver, or for not reading a coverage correctly. But when you do all the aforementioned correctly and simply can't throw a football accurately, well I'm just not sure that's an easily correctable part of a QB's skill set. https://vine.co/u/1126081375733444608 Excellent post. I dont think it is correctable myself but I am still willing to give him the rest of the year to find out.
Captain Hindsight Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 What a great analysis. It's interesting that EJ's biggest issues right now are not mechanical, as so many posters like to parrot. EJ's actually pretty damn good at evading initial pressure in his face, but like Joe B concluded, he panics once he successfully evades it--which sucks. He did the truly hard part and then doesn't make the defense pay they way QB's like Peyton, Rodgers, and Big Ben do. I don't know why so many Bills fans are up in arms over EJ. I see a lot of good stuff and his issues here (field awareness, decision making, accuracy) are things that will very likely improve with simple experience. I'm actually encouraged by this. If EJ"s accuracy issues were a result of just mechanics from a clean pocket I'd be worried. But this is the game still being too fast at times for him. The only way it'll slow down is to keep playing and keep getting these situations. Teams will likely start using this game plan that TB and SD used to rattle him, and you know what? He'll start learning how to beat it. This is how I feel about EJ. I see enough good out of him that makes me think one day it could all just click and he becomes a great player but he has a way to go and lots of areas to improve. I see no reason to give up on him yet. I think he needs to play with more confidence and trust his arm and reads. He was rattled sunday, hopefully that is an aberration and not a trend. It is important to note that last year, his two worst games (Pittsburgh and Tampa) he played very well the following week (Jets and Jags). He hasn't put together multiple bad games in a row which to me is a good sign.
Bocephuz Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) EJ was definitely shaky.. however.. my perception of him being captain checkdown ( at least in the first 3 quarters.. ) was changed after watching the All 22. From what I saw he was trying to go deep quite often .. it was either go deep or try to throw screens or crossing routes.( not too many intermediate comebacks or curls). I saw very few intermediate curl routes run.. however.. this is an example of a successful one I think Hackett needs to get back to the short 3 step drop curl/ slant game so the receivers' timing is timed up better with EJ's drops. Edited September 24, 2014 by Bocephuz
YoloinOhio Posted September 24, 2014 Author Posted September 24, 2014 EJ was definitely shaky.. however.. my perception of him being captain checkdown ( at least in the first 3 quarters.. ) was changed after watching the All 22. From what I saw he was trying to go deep quite often and there were moments where he was aggressive I saw very few intermediate curl routes run.. however.. this is an example of a successful one i remember a few times he took shots downfield. Flowers had good coverage on Watkins on one and Goodwin drew DPI on another. I think we will see more, the D is going to give it to us.
Bocephuz Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) This is how I feel about EJ. I see enough good out of him that makes me think one day it could all just click and he becomes a great player but he has a way to go and lots of areas to improve. I see no reason to give up on him yet. I think he needs to play with more confidence and trust his arm and reads. He was rattled sunday, hopefully that is an aberration and not a trend. It is important to note that last year, his two worst games (Pittsburgh and Tampa) he played very well the following week (Jets and Jags). He hasn't put together multiple bad games in a row which to me is a good sign. He needs to take advantage of his height and watch Rivers or Brady to learn the ole side step shuffle in the pocket Another thought after watching all 22...Hackett kept trying to run the clear out drag crossing play for Sammy where everyone else runs go routes to clear out for Sammy. Since they had Sammy bottled up on most of those plays EJ's secondary reads are all go routes.. and by the time you see Sammy's not open it's too late to even attempt throwing the go routes( especially when your o line is sucking) Edited September 24, 2014 by Bocephuz
K-9 Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Hard to run the ball when you're facing 8 in the box with a QB who won't attempt and/or can't complete intermediate to deep passes. In 2011, Buffalo started 5-2 and hosted NYJ in Week 9. The Jets knew Buffalo's offense was built on Fitzpatrick making quick short throws, so they jammed their receivers at the LOS and disrupted that timing. The Bills went 1-8 the rest of the way (including that game) on the way to a 6-10 season. We're already seeing a similar pattern this year. The blueprint for beating Buffalo was written on Sunday so long as Manuel refuses to attempt (and complete) intermediate or longer passes. Because he can't hurt you that way, teams are going to continue selling out to stop the run knowing he's incapable of making them pay through the air. EJ is the key. The OL was bad, but the majority of the blame should be placed on the tentative QB, who it seems the team is losing faith in quickly. You mean like when he hurt both Chicago and Miami doing exactly that? The only new ground San Diego hoed was how to attack our OLine and force middle pressure, something that any QB is not comfortable with. That said, EJ needs to develop more patience and not bail early as a result of getting harassed previously. That comes with experience. Anyway, I'm not too concerned with Manuel not being able to hit deeper passes; he's shown the ability on several occasions in the past. We definitely need to see more of it but let's not pretend like he's literally not capable. GO BILLS!!!
26CornerBlitz Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 @TheJoeMarino The #Bills would not run a 7 yard button hook and 7 yard out route in the same play. Someone ran wrong route. Miscue.
26CornerBlitz Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 @TheJoeMarino Not uncommon 4 both #Bills DT's Williams & Dareus to get doubled vs the run. Can u imagine Kiko roaming behind this?
The Wiz Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 @TheJoeMarino The #Bills would not run a 7 yard button hook and 7 yard out route in the same play. Someone ran wrong route. Miscue. EJ must have told one of them to run a different route so no one was over the middle....
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 EJ was definitely shaky.. however.. my perception of him being captain checkdown ( at least in the first 3 quarters.. ) was changed after watching the All 22. From what I saw he was trying to go deep quite often .. it was either go deep or try to throw screens or crossing routes.( not too many intermediate comebacks or curls). I saw very few intermediate curl routes run.. however.. this is an example of a successful one I think Hackett needs to get back to the short 3 step drop curl/ slant game so the receivers' timing is timed up better with EJ's drops. Would you please post more often? That's good stuff.
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