The Finer Points of OL Play

[ALF]

For me , the most critical positions is the OL. If a good QB does not have time to throw or gets sacked and injured , failure.

 

If blocking for the running game is not there , failure.

 

No running game, means no passing game, especially in bad weather.

[boyst]

Bandit, I am not arguing with you but I do see Qbs around the league also point at line players (DTs like Darius and Kyle or ends like Mario) and say things to the Oline men or RBs and TEs on occasion. I do realize that what you say is correct of course but it does happen especially if they audible on the play. I just did get to click one link I have got to read more though, love this post and some of the discussion. Please keep it going as the season goes on.

 

BTW trivia question, what linebacker/hybrid from the recent past "was the Mike" that Tom Brady liked to call out and was in discussion on this board for quite a while, since he was there mostly to cover Gronk but couldn't.

He couldn't cover Gronk because every time he was inserted to do so Brady switched to a run and they clobbered his butt.

 

Try that on Brandon Spikes.

[ALF]

A player that can cover Gronk and Graham

 

I wish the Bills had that player, he would be well compensated

Edited November 7, 2014 by ALF

[Bills Fan of St Augustine]

Very nice write up Bandit. Some interesting points to be sure. However, watch our line play and you come away with not a simple matter of a crease here and there or a back missing a hole but rather a DL in the backfield, an OG looking like they are in a daze and blocking no one at all! No skill player short of Barry Sanders could make up for the abysmal performance of these lineman. I don't have the time or energy you have put in to make your point, so kudos to you! But look for plays where Richardson or Pears fails to block anyone at all. See the number of times DL appear in the backfield on both run and pass because they beat the Bills OL. Failure to pick up stunts or blitzes. These are the real issues with the OL! Elite line play does move the line of scrimmage forward in any level of football. It does control the line of scrimmage. It does provide a hole so that the first player the back has to make miss is a DB or at worst a LB. Watch film of our own DL last year and why they failed to stop the run. They failed to control their space because they were blocked effectively. IMO the line looks much better with the simple Urbik upgrade. Pears is no guard and needs to be replaced. Just my opinion and great thread.

[thebandit27]

Latest edition focuses on the Rams...

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2014/word-muth-rams-collapse-desert

 

One key idea that jumped out at me:

 

"A lot of St. Louis' problems up front can be attributed to Wells and Joseph just not working very well together. Considering Joseph started the season for the Rams, his complete lack of chemistry with Wells is a little surprising. Even when Wells tried to offer more help to Joseph, things went poorly."

 

Just goes to show how important communication (and hence, continuity) are along the OL.

 

Another key point from the 3rd play:

 

"Joseph immediately slides away from the only down lineman near him at the snap. That creates more space that Barksdale has to close as he slides inside against the defensive tackle. I understand that Joseph is worried about the two inside linebackers (in name only; one of those guys is actually a defensive lineman), but they're off the ball. Joseph needs to stay put and provide body presence for his tackle. As long as he has his eyes in the right spot, he should be able to get inside to any blitzer that comes. But he drifts inside and allows a space through which the defensive tackle can work."

 

This is that same concept we've heard over and over: squeeze together to limit space...it's one of the biggest reasons that Cyril Richardson isn't starting anymore. He left so much space in the gaps between he and Glenn (and Wood on slide schemes) that DTs (and edge rushers on stunts) were abusing it.

[thebandit27]

Looking at the Bears from last week:

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2014/word-muth-bears-bounce-back

 

A great note on the responsibilities of the OGs in passing off rushers and helping out in pass protection. From the first play diagrammed:

 

"De La Puente (64) should help his center Roberto Garza (63), because that nose tackle is rushing pretty wide. The issue I have is when he buries his head into the rusher instead of keeping his eyes outside where they should be.

 

Bushrod (74) oversets the defensive end a little bit, but not as badly as the Rams linemen that I diagrammed in this space last week, and I actually think he's smart to do it here. He knows he has help inside (or should have help inside, at least) and Griffen is a good player; it makes sense to try to funnel him into a double team. If De La Puente doesn't bury his head into the defensive tackle for a second, he's there for a kill shot on a spinning, blind rusher. You can see De La Puente tried to give Griffen the flipper for the knockdown, but he was just too late. If he could have gotten in there in time he would have had a great rib shot. When you get those big shots on edge rushers, you have to take them; it makes defensive ends a lot wearier to spin inside later in the game and just slows them down in general. It's a win-win."

 

Also, the second (and, for that matter, the third) play shown is an excellent example of how beneficial it can be to get the OLmen on the move instead of having them try to plant and drive every play.

 

Lastly, the final play is a reminder of life in the NFL for OLmen. The gap between success and failure is miniscule:

 

"If Bushrod blocks a cornerback OR Garza reaches a nose tackle, Cutler scores. (This looks like a really bad effort from Garza at center here.) Those are two blocks both guys made multiple times throughout the game. If they both make their blocks, Cutler walks into the end zone."

[thebandit27]

Back to Baltimore this week, with a special bonus, as Ben highlights pass-rushing technique:

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2014/word-muth-group-effort

 

"Look at Freeney's inside arm right before he starts to spin. He raises it above his shoulder, reaches through to Monroe's upfield shoulder, and chops down violently. This accomplishes a couple of things. First by reaching through, it gives Freeney a head start on his spin (his shoulders are already partially turned). It also keeps Monroe's hands off him during the spin, and by knocking the tackle's hands down violently it forces Monroe forward and off balance. Here it is again on another play."

 

Also, highlighting a subject of great interest for Bills' fans this year: guard play. Have a look at the 2nd play shown--Marshall Yanda making 3 separate blocks--and the 3rd play, showing a bit of negligence by Kelechi Osemele.

 

That kind of effort is a fine example of why a guy like Erik Pears isn't suited for guard. He's not athletic or nimble enough to make the play that Yanda does, and--like Osemele--he's a former OT that tends to get caught over-extending to reach a blocker instead of knowing his job and working in concert with his neighboring linemen.

 

As always, it's a razor-thin margin in the NFL. If Osemele is able to get even a minimal bump to help out the center on that 3rd play, you're probably looking at a sizable gain.

[thebandit27]

Updating this thread because I'm came across this article from a former NFL scout last night, which has several very good breakdowns of what traits different OL positions need to have to be successful:

 

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/4/10/5579326/nfl-draft-2014-evaluating-offensive-linemen

 

Includes quotes from Bill Walsh.

 

Good stuff for those of us constantly seeking to understand the intricacies of OL play.

[thebandit27]

Ben wrapping up the Rams...

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2014/word-muth-rams-wrap

 

Check out Rodger Saffold executing the perfect pass-off in the first play. He gets full extension with his arms to push his assignment onto the center, and keeps his feet in position to re-direct and pick up the inside twist. That's the kind of thing that Buffalo's OGs have struggled with all season (particularly Richardson and Pears).

[hondo in seattle]

I just want to thank Bandit for starting this thread and join the chorus singing that this is TBD at it's very best.

 

There's too much uneducated opinion and too many ad hominem attacks on internet boards for my taste.

 

This thread, however, has educated me.

[Matt in KC]

I just want to thank Bandit for starting this thread and join the chorus singing that this is TBD at it's very best.

 

There's too much uneducated opinion and too many ad hominem attacks on internet boards for my taste.

 

This thread, however, has educated me.

I completely agree. Bravo, and thanks Bandit!

[BackInDaDay]

Ben wrapping up the Rams...

 

http://www.footballo...-muth-rams-wrap

 

Check out Rodger Saffold executing the perfect pass-off in the first play. He gets full extension with his arms to push his assignment onto the center, and keeps his feet in position to re-direct and pick up the inside twist. That's the kind of thing that Buffalo's OGs have struggled with all season (particularly Richardson and Pears).

 

first off, let me join my fellow TBDer's in thanking you for keeping this alive.

 

that is a nice job by the LG on that stunt - really stymied them, but how about that well executed outside zone run in the third clip? its a great example of the ZBS 'covered/uncovered' principles, complete with the O line's initial lateral footwork, and as a bonus it shows how motion can bring second level defenders into a better position to be blocked.

 

to this last point, see how the TE comes in motion left, dragging both LBs into 'reach'able positions for the playside guard and center? cool, right? and then the same TE cleans up the backside? man, that's great stuff. i would love to see us incorporate more of this. i know we're not good at getting to the second level, but this Rams O line doesn't look like a classic ZBS line either - they look a bit bulky.. but i tell ya what, they do look like they've got their assignments down pat - at least on that play.

Edited December 19, 2014 by BackInDaDay

[thebandit27]

first off, let me join my fellow TBDer's in thanking you for keeping this alive.

 

that is a nice job by the LG on that stunt - really stymied them, but how about that well executed outside zone run in the third clip? its a great example of the ZBS 'covered/uncovered' principles, complete with the O line's initial lateral footwork, and as a bonus it shows how motion can bring second level defenders into a better position to be blocked.

 

to this last point, see how the TE comes in motion left, dragging both LBs into 'reach'able positions for the playside guard and center? cool, right? and then the same TE cleans up the backside? man, that's great stuff. i would love to see us incorporate more of this. i know we're not good at getting to the second level, but this Rams O line doesn't look like a classic ZBS line either - they look a bit bulky.. but i tell ya what, they do look like they've got their assignments down pat - at least on that play.

 

Good points--the organization of the unit looks solid. They tend to move together and everyone knows where they need to be and what gaps they need to cover. I really don't see a reason why Buffalo's OL can't do the same.

[thebandit27]

Post-season look at Baltimore’s banged up front…

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2015/word-muth-banged-ravens-beat-steelers

 

Love this commentary about timing and pass-rushing:

 

“Pass rushing is as much about timing as anything else: timing the snap for a good get-off, then timing your move to avoid a blocker's hands or knock them down. Edge guys get tons of reps working moves and rushes against offensive tackles (particularly on offensive tackles trying to protect a spot 7 to 10 yards directly behind the center); they get far fewer reps working against tight ends who are aligned right over the top of them. As a result their timing is all thrown off when they get blocked immediately by a tight end. Now, they're still professional pass rushers so they can still counter and get to the quarterback (plus, the more you block with your tight ends in a game, the more edge rushers are prepared to rush against them), but it's a great change-up to use, particularly if you're unsure of your tackles. I'm not sure Baltimore will be able to lean on the tight ends by themselves in New England on Saturday, but they'll have to be ready to play a key role in the passing game again.”

 

The second play highlights a textbook example of how important teamwork is in blocking:

 

“Owen Daniels at tight end on the play side does a great job to get the edge here. He gets a good release and makes sure to bang James Harrison (92) onto left tackle James Hurst before climbing to the second level and picking up the linebacker. Exactly what you're looking for from a tight end on the outside zone.”

 

Also a few good items about what good guard play looks like. Short version: it ain’t perfect. It’s about covering up your man. Next time you hear about an OL dominating in the run game, remember context: dominating is simply doing your job just a little better than your opponent on a consistent basis.

[thebandit27]

Ben wraps up the Ravens...

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2015/word-muth-ravens-wrap

 

A very informative note on the general intent of zone schemes comes from the first play:

 

"This is actually a good example of how zone blocking is really just collaborative blocking that is predetermined at the line of scrimmage. Hurst has to follow the defensive end outside of his tracks because he knows the guard isn't working with him. It's not a true zone, so to speak, like slide protection would be."

 

In other words, many of the zone concepts we've seen from Buffalo's OL in 2014 are putting their OLmen in position where they need to function independently within a unit's assignment; just not a great fit for the massive bodies they had.

 

Also, this gem that outlines OG-OC communication and cohesiveness from the third play:

 

"Usually against this type of alignment you'd expect the guard to run through the inside shoulder of the defensive tackle and climb to the linebacker, while the right tackle took over the down lineman. But Wilfork is slanting so the O-linemen have to essentially switch men. (This is where the name "zone blocking" is actually accurate.)"

 

Pretty impressive stuff considering how that Ravens line was assembled. A LT for whom they traded a 4th and 5th round pick, a 2nd round converted OT at LG, a C for whom they traded a 5th round pick, a 3rd round converted OT at RG, and a 5th round sophomore at RT.

[BackInDaDay]

that first clip is a good example how to defend the outside zone.. the C original assignment playside is to combo the DT with the LG, and let the LG climb to the LB91. the shift confused the LG, but unlike the author - i think he should have left the DT to the C and RG, and gone right at LB91 - the RG could have climbed to LB54. but that shift allowed the RDE to swap edge force with LB91, and slash inside. on the backside, i also don't know why the RG didn't head playside - combo the NT and clean up LB54 - who was tracking untouched along the LOS. all in all - a good play for the D,or just sloppy by the O..

 

in the second clip the D didn't shift. the NT sat in a 2 tech where the LG was able to combo him with the C, before getting after LB91. the RDE again slashed across the LT - this time giving edge force to DB23. and this time the RG did head playside - adding to the interference (does anyone still use that term? ) that forced LB54 to track it deeper. a good play for the O.

 

the last 2 clips are also very well executed. i wonder what the Pats read in clip 1 that made them shift? because after that first one, the LG was perfect.

 

now let me ask you.. do you think we have a guard on our current roster who could get after 2nd level guys like that LG? i'm less concerned with our tackles, but i'd love to get a heads up on your favorite collegiate guards so i can look 'em up, and act like i been following them since freshman year

[TPS]

Updating this thread because I'm came across this article from a former NFL scout last night, which has several very good breakdowns of what traits different OL positions need to have to be successful:

 

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/4/10/5579326/nfl-draft-2014-evaluating-offensive-linemen

 

Includes quotes from Bill Walsh.

 

Good stuff for those of us constantly seeking to understand the intricacies of OL play.

That is good stuff. I think the following (really nice) quote relates to Ryan's comment on the Oline being his baby:

 

"Maybe it's because I'm used to watching the NFC West all season and that division has made its reputation over the past couple seasons for being smash-mouth, hard-nosed and merciless in the trenches. The Niners' offensive line in particular is an enviable one, made up of mean human beings who enjoy, nay, relish hitting the people in front of them. There's a psychological edge that you can project when you have a group like this, and it can trickle down to your whole team."

[thebandit27]

that first clip is a good example how to defend the outside zone.. the C original assignment playside is to combo the DT with the LG, and let the LG climb to the LB91. the shift confused the LG, but unlike the author - i think he should have left the DT to the C and RG, and gone right at LB91 - the RG could have climbed to LB54. but that shift allowed the RDE to swap edge force with LB91, and slash inside. on the backside, i also don't know why the RG didn't head playside - combo the NT and clean up LB54 - who was tracking untouched along the LOS. all in all - a good play for the D,or just sloppy by the O..

 

in the second clip the D didn't shift. the NT sat in a 2 tech where the LG was able to combo him with the C, before getting after LB91. the RDE again slashed across the LT - this time giving edge force to DB23. and this time the RG did head playside - adding to the interference (does anyone still use that term? ) that forced LB54 to track it deeper. a good play for the O.

 

the last 2 clips are also very well executed. i wonder what the Pats read in clip 1 that made them shift? because after that first one, the LG was perfect.

 

now let me ask you.. do you think we have a guard on our current roster who could get after 2nd level guys like that LG? i'm less concerned with our tackles, but i'd love to get a heads up on your favorite collegiate guards so i can look 'em up, and act like i been following them since freshman year

 

No, no we do not have a guard that can do that...at all.

 

As for the OGs in this draft, well, I may have something of interest for you:

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/174895-bandits-2015-draft-report-ogs/

 

Enjoy

[BackInDaDay]

 

No, no we do not have a guard that can do that...at all.

 

As for the OGs in this draft, well, I may have something of interest for you:

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/174895-bandits-2015-draft-report-ogs/

 

Enjoy

 

you da man, Bandit! only got through Cann and Harrison, but i like Cann alot more.. stays active, and aggressive until the whistle, and seems to play lower.. they don't pull him in that tape, but he's pretty quick to his inside on runs, and looks good when asked to get downfield.. looking forward to checking out the rest of the herd.. thanks, again!