The Finer Points of OL Play

[thebandit27]

EDIT:

 

This thread began as a talking point regarding the Bills' OL post-week-2, but has since evolved to become an open discussion on the finer points of OL play. I'll be updating it weekly with Ben Muth's columns to stimulate further discussion on what many of us appear to believe is a noteworthy topic

 

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I think we're all being appropriately critical of the OL play this year, particularly in the run game. I want to provide some perspective on the subject, as dictated by Football Outsiders' Ben Muth--a former OG from Stanford who breaks down film for several media outlets.

 

http://www.footballo...ars-upset-49ers

 

Relevant text:

 

Even the best linemen in the NFL are not the bulldozers they are often portrayed to be. They are not knocking guys 5 yards off the ball and dumping them on their backs. You'll see the odd play like that, but they are very few and far in between. What an actual dominant offensive lineman looks like is a guard hooking a three technique off the snap, forcing him to lose his gap, and driving him 1 or 2 yards off the ball as the running back hits a nice little lane in the B gap. It's not an offensive tackle crumpling some guy with a massive punch in pass protection; it's staying between your man and the quarterback for all 40 pass attempts. This isn't high school. Being dominant in the NFL means just doing your job consistently and relentlessly for four quarters of a game.

 

So what's the point? The point is, I think we're all expecting too much from our OL, and not putting enough onus on the skill positions.

 

This OL isn't getting the QB killed, and I have a hunch if we all looked critically at the All-22 we'd see running lanes that the RBs aren't making full use of on a play-by-play basis.

 

IMO this is an important point to keep in mind as the season progresses.

Edited October 2, 2014 by thebandit27

[MarkAF43]

I think we're all being appropriately critical of the OL play this year, particularly in the run game. I want to provide some perspective on the subject, as dictated by Football Outsiders' Ben Muth--a former OG from Stanford who breaks down film for several media outlets.

 

http://www.footballo...ars-upset-49ers

 

Relevant text:

 

Even the best linemen in the NFL are not the bulldozers they are often portrayed to be. They are not knocking guys 5 yards off the ball and dumping them on their backs. You'll see the odd play like that, but they are very few and far in between. What an actual dominant offensive lineman looks like is a guard hooking a three technique off the snap, forcing him to lose his gap, and driving him 1 or 2 yards off the ball as the running back hits a nice little lane in the B gap. It's not an offensive tackle crumpling some guy with a massive punch in pass protection; it's staying between your man and the quarterback for all 40 pass attempts. This isn't high school. Being dominant in the NFL means just doing your job consistently and relentlessly for four quarters of a game.

 

So what's the point? The point is, I think we're all expecting too much from our OL, and not putting enough onus on the skill positions.

 

This OL isn't getting the QB killed, and I have a hunch if we all looked critically at the All-22 we'd see running lanes that the RBs aren't making full use of on a play-by-play basis.

 

IMO this is an important point to keep in mind as the season progresses.

 

so are you saying our RB's don't have good field vision?

[Dean Cain]

Exactly. My feeling watching the all 22 is CJ too often hits a hole & tries to bounce outside, and Fred has lost a 1/2 step & can no longer transition to an open lane like he used to on a consistent basis. We could definitely benefit from more 3-4 yard carries. Id like to see 3-4, as opposed to 1,2 yard carries. The big plays are nice but with the run game consistency is key.

[Captain Caveman]

What I'm seeing is the exact opposite of what you're saying we should expect. Our O-line has been extremely inconsistent, in run and pass blocking. I don't care about pancake blocks, I want the RB to not be getting hit behind the line of scrimmage. I want the pocket to hold for 3 seconds (or at least only have it collapse in 1 direction on any given play so the QB can adjust.) If there is an O line breakdown on 1 of every 4 plays (a rough estimate based on what I saw on Sunday) then it will be extremely hard for the offense to sustain drives, especially when you add in penalties and blown routes / inaccurate passes.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Captain Caveman

[thebandit27]

What I'm seeing is the exact opposite of what you're saying we should expect. Our O-line has been extremely inconsistent, in run and pass blocking. I don't care about pancake blocks, I want the RB to not be getting hit behind the line of scrimmage. I want the pocket to hold for 3 seconds (or at least only have it collapse in 1 direction on any given play so the QB can adjust.) If there is an O line breakdown on 1 of every 4 plays (a rough estimate based on what I saw on Sunday) then it will be extremely hard for the offense to sustain drives, especially when you add in penalties and blown routes / inaccurate passes.

 

I don't know that it's quite that frequent. If we're to trust Football Outsiders' numbers (and from my experience they're very good at tracking), the Bills are middle-of-the-pack (18th) when it comes to RBs being contacted in the backfield.

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

 

I don't mean to absolve the OL of poor play--the guard positions haven't been very good. I'm simply saying that I think we, as a fanbase, are expecting too much if we think that they should be giving EJ 4 and 5 seconds to throw the ball, or that the RBs should be seeing these gaping holes to run through.

 

More often, in the NFL, the timing of a play is hugely important. A crease appears on a running play and the RB needs to hit it before it closes. Right now, that isn't happening, and it's partially on the OL...it's also partially on the RBs.

 

Know what I mean?

[Dan]

I don't know that it's quite that frequent. If we're to trust Football Outsiders' numbers (and from my experience they're very good at tracking), the Bills are middle-of-the-pack (18th) when it comes to RBs being contacted in the backfield.

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

 

I don't mean to absolve the OL of poor play--the guard positions haven't been very good. I'm simply saying that I think we, as a fanbase, are expecting too much if we think that they should be giving EJ 4 and 5 seconds to throw the ball, or that the RBs should be seeing these gaping holes to run through.

 

More often, in the NFL, the timing of a play is hugely important. A crease appears on a running play and the RB needs to hit it before it closes. Right now, that isn't happening, and it's partially on the OL...it's also partially on the RBs.

 

Know what I mean?

And I'd like to add.... you can't expect to have Pro Bowl, HOF caliber players at every position.

[Captain Caveman]

Not sure which games that ranking is based on, but it seemed to me like the line played much worse this Sunday than in the first 2 games.

[Coach Tuesday]

I think you should be able to expect your o-line to recognize a stunt and adjust their blocking appropriately, especially the third time it happens in the same game.

[Lofton80]

The Marrone/Hackett offense at SU always pounded the middle with a big back whether it was there or not. Inevitabley, the holes were larger at the end of the game. Mot sure this theory works in the pro game.

 

I agree CJ misses holes to the middle as he is always looking to bust it to the sidelines. if he ever cut left he could make some yards.

 

 

 

 

Exactly. My feeling watching the all 22 is CJ too often hits a hole & tries to bounce outside, and Fred has lost a 1/2 step & can no longer transition to an open lane like he used to on a consistent basis. We could definitely benefit from more 3-4 yard carries. Id like to see 3-4, as opposed to 1,2 yard carries. The big plays are nice but with the run game consistency is key.

[thebandit27]

Gave this post a bump and an edited title, as I think Muth's column is informative enough to keep as regular reading.

 

Some really good stuff here on the finer points of OL technique, with great examples:

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2014/word-muth-state-rams

 

I particularly like the 2nd play shown here, as it highlights something Buffalo was brutal at in Week 3: passing off the interior rusher across the face of the guard/center exchange point.

 

Anyway, enjoy.

[hondo in seattle]

Just take the eyeball test.

 

~ In short yardage situations, is the OL getting a good forward push?

 

~ On other running plays, are they creating running lanes for our backs?

 

~ On passing plays, is EJ being pressured?

 

I'd answer negatively for the first two questions and my answer to the third would be ambivalent.

 

We might not have the worst OL in the league, but it's far from the best. Their play will hinder our ability to score.

 

I'm really hoping the three rookies get better because what we have right now today just isn't good enough.

[John from Riverside]

I think we're all being appropriately critical of the OL play this year, particularly in the run game. I want to provide some perspective on the subject, as dictated by Football Outsiders' Ben Muth--a former OG from Stanford who breaks down film for several media outlets.

 

http://www.footballo...ars-upset-49ers

 

Relevant text:

 

Even the best linemen in the NFL are not the bulldozers they are often portrayed to be. They are not knocking guys 5 yards off the ball and dumping them on their backs. You'll see the odd play like that, but they are very few and far in between. What an actual dominant offensive lineman looks like is a guard hooking a three technique off the snap, forcing him to lose his gap, and driving him 1 or 2 yards off the ball as the running back hits a nice little lane in the B gap. It's not an offensive tackle crumpling some guy with a massive punch in pass protection; it's staying between your man and the quarterback for all 40 pass attempts. This isn't high school. Being dominant in the NFL means just doing your job consistently and relentlessly for four quarters of a game.

 

So what's the point? The point is, I think we're all expecting too much from our OL, and not putting enough onus on the skill positions.

 

This OL isn't getting the QB killed, and I have a hunch if we all looked critically at the All-22 we'd see running lanes that the RBs aren't making full use of on a play-by-play basis.

 

IMO this is an important point to keep in mind as the season progresses.

 

I just thought the pocket was much cleaner in the first 2 games......

[thebandit27]

Great look at the Ravens handling of the Panthers last week:

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2014/word-muth-ravens-crush-panthers

 

Some key points that I liked:

 

Yanda knows the center won't need a ton of help. He just wants give the NT a little bump to slow him down before climbing to the second level. He loses his block at the second level but gets enough of the linebacker to spring Forsett.

 

^ That's the kind of thing with which I'd like to see Buffalo's guards do a better job.

 

Also, I mentioned in a few threads some of the issues with using converted OTs at guard, as Buffalo has been doing with Pears/Williams. You gain an edge in certain pass blocking situations, but the limited space requires much different technique. To explain it better, I dug up one of Ben's columns from last year:

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2013/word-muth-bengals-buck-colts

 

Key statements:

 

One thing I do think warrants mention is that Whitworth plays guard like a tackle, which only makes sense as Whitworth has been a tackle most of his career. There are certainly some positives to this, but it makes me nervous. In pass protection, I think he sets too deep initially for a guard and gives up ground he doesn’t need to. He’s a really good pass blocker -- he’s a Pro Bowl left tackle after all -- so he’s gotten away with it so far. But it’s something to keep an eye on. Andy Dalton is not someone you want throwing off his back foot with pressure in his face.

 

On this play, playing like a tackle means shotputting the defensive tackle outside as soon as possible. When you’re an offensive tackle that is zone blocking, your goal is to get your helmet outside, threaten a reach block, and then use the defensive end's own momentum to throw him outside and widen the hole when he starts to fight outside. That works at offensive tackle because you line up wide to begin with, and tackles are generally bigger and stronger than defensive ends.

 

At guard, there isn’t as much natural width. If you go to throw a guy outside and don’t get much movement, all you’ve done is open a lane into the backfield right at the running back's aiming point. Guards typically try to stay a little more square on defenders when they zone block, so they can try to get some vertical movement as well as widening the defensive tackle.

 

Just some fodder for discussion.

[thebandit27]

Excellent stuff again this week:

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2014/word-muth-bad-day-chicago

 

I want to call special attention to the first GIF in the article. Watch Kyle Long at RG; this is how a stunt is supposed to be handled. He passes off the inside rusher (former Bills' DT Dwan Edwards) and then squeezes tight with the center to limit the space that the defender looping inside has in which to rush. I hope Erik Pears is watching.

 

Also, look at the quick-release of the RG and RT on the sudden screen play.

 

It's called a sudden screen because it's quicker hitting than a conventional halfback screen, using a 1-count for the offensive linemen involved in the screen as opposed to the traditional 2- or 2.5-count. The play is simple enough: you run a full slide protection and have the back attack the edge rusher before pivoting to look for the ball after making contact with the defender's inside shoulder (well, sometimes they make contact). The play-side guard and tackle release on the screen.

[boyst]

Excellent stuff again this week:

 

http://www.footballo...bad-day-chicago

 

I want to call special attention to the first GIF in the article. Watch Kyle Long at RG; this is how a stunt is supposed to be handled. He passes off the inside rusher (former Bills' DT Dwan Edwards) and then squeezes tight with the center to limit the space that the defender looping inside has in which to rush. I hope Erik Pears is watching.

 

Also, look at the quick-release of the RG and RT on the sudden screen play.

 

It's called a sudden screen because it's quicker hitting than a conventional halfback screen, using a 1-count for the offensive linemen involved in the screen as opposed to the traditional 2- or 2.5-count. The play is simple enough: you run a full slide protection and have the back attack the edge rusher before pivoting to look for the ball after making contact with the defender's inside shoulder (well, sometimes they make contact). The play-side guard and tackle release on the screen.

Love how 95 of the Panthers totally bit on the screen.

[thebandit27]

Reaching back into the archives a bit this week to cover a subject of much intrigue...

 

How To Pick Up a Stunt, Starring Dallas OT Tyron Smith

 

Firstplay of the article. Notice how Smith doesn't set himself too wide, and how the guard-center combo squeezes together when they feel the inside pressure. What don't you see? A guard chasing a defender out to the edge and getting in the OT's way (looking at you, Erik Pears).

 

Second play: look what happens. Now you've got both the OT and the OG chasing their blockers around, and they give up a pressure. This is textbook what not to do.

 

Another great example from the Cowboys:

 

Picking Up a Stunt, Part II

 

First play: look at the pass across the face of the G-T exchange point. Everyone is accounted for on this play.

 

Also, a piece from last year about running inside zone (as the Bills often do). Good points about pad level (again, Bills' OGs, I'm looking at you), and a special nod to a guy I'm hoping Buffalo goes after in the off-season: Clint Boling. Enjoy:

 

Inside Zone

 

And I especially want to highlight this nugget of wisdom that seems to be so often lost on folks:

 

One thing that may stand out to you because of how well I said this play was blocked is that the hole is so tight that Jared Lorenzen would get stuck in it, Winnie the Pooh style. It just goes to show you how small the difference between first-and-10 and second-and-7 can be.

 

Remember, in the NFL, RBs get creases, not crevasses, to run through.

[bowery4]

I just started to skim this thread and can't wait to read it all thanks for posting it Bandit, am going to go through first chance I get.

[thebandit27]

Muth breaks down the Rams.

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2014/word-muth-rams-big-win

 

I'd like to call attention to Greg Robinson playing at guard, as it relates very closely to some of the issues we see with Pears. Specifically:

 

One of the things that people raved about with Robinson coming out was his athleticism, his ability to move in open space and finish with power on the run. When it was announced Robinson would play this year at guard, people immediately started speculating on how devastating a lead blocker he could be on pulls in power and counter schemes.

 

Unfortunately, leading downfield on a screen and pulling on power are two very different things. Many teams teach their guards to karaoke pull (karaoke like the hip flipping warmup drill you see pregame, not karaoke like me tearing the house down with "Calling Baton Rouge"), something that tackles never do.

 

This is a point that many of us keep hitting on: OTs don't automatically become good OGs just by moving inside.

 

Also, the 2nd-to-last play: classic example of a former OT locking on to a defender as opposed to playing his assignment.

 

If St. Louis would just let Robinson play OT I think he'd be much better off.

[thebandit27]

Focusing on the Ravens' OL this week, featuring LG Kelechi Osemele...

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2014/word-muth-osemeles-breakout-season

 

Two of my favorite quotes come in the breakdown of the 2nd play, and center around a nugget that I'm always eager to point out:

 

"you can play great without doing something as physically overpowering as pancaking someone. Baltimore's first touchdown run was actually a better example of how Baltimore found success for most of the game, and it was their other outstanding guard who made the key block."

 

"Again, he's not knocking Devon Still (75)'s dick in the dirt, but this is a great block that's on par with what Osemele did above.

 

Also, this from the 3rd play shown:

 

"that may seem like a screw-up from right guard Marshal Yanda (73), but he's actually doing the right thing. Because there's a 'backer who poses an immediate threat to the A gap away from which the center is moving, Yanda has to squeeze down and pick up the defender closest to the quarterback. The general rule of thumb is that if the linebacker breaks a down lineman's heels, you should squeeze."

 

I feel like this is really worth mentioning, since I see the Bills' OGs get blamed for perceived pass protection breakdowns that aren't always their fault. There are plenty of times where pressure comes through an interior gap because the OG is doing his job, as odd as that may sound.

[John from Riverside]

Focusing on the Ravens' OL this week, featuring LG Kelechi Osemele...

 

http://www.footballo...breakout-season

 

Two of my favorite quotes come in the breakdown of the 2nd play, and center around a nugget that I'm always eager to point out:

 

"you can play great without doing something as physically overpowering as pancaking someone. Baltimore's first touchdown run was actually a better example of how Baltimore found success for most of the game, and it was their other outstanding guard who made the key block."

 

"Again, he's not knocking Devon Still (75)'s dick in the dirt, but this is a great block that's on par with what Osemele did above.

 

Also, this from the 3rd play shown:

 

"that may seem like a screw-up from right guard Marshal Yanda (73), but he's actually doing the right thing. Because there's a 'backer who poses an immediate threat to the A gap away from which the center is moving, Yanda has to squeeze down and pick up the defender closest to the quarterback. The general rule of thumb is that if the linebacker breaks a down lineman's heels, you should squeeze."

 

I feel like this is really worth mentioning, since I see the Bills' OGs get blamed for perceived pass protection breakdowns that aren't always their fault. There are plenty of times where pressure comes through an interior gap because the OG is doing his job, as odd as that may sound.

 

I think this is because

 

a. Its an assignment of the RB to pick up that interior rush

 

b. They might be possibly setting up a inside screen and you NEED for that defender to commit to interior rush

 

Sometimes you can create blocking by using a defender's own team against him........he a defender is blocked out of a play by his own teamate (keep in mind these things are happening in a matter of seconds) they are not as apt to go full speed into a tackle....but will look for a different "angle" to get to the ball carrier that does not depend on them running over their own player.