Question...for those what have watched each game

[1B4IDie]

4 man fronts were harassing and sacking EJ.

 

All you had to do was listen the the commentators .The Defense may have picked up the rushing attack

 

BUT

 

I stopped keeping track after the 4th BIG PLAY gain by the Chargers

 

You Guys are way off.

 

The NFL leader in time on pocket is less than 3.5 seconds.

 

Watch the game and count to 3 on the passing plays.

 

EJ had more than enough time on passing plays to deliver the ball.

 

If you're actually open and honest about the play you'll see there was time to throw.

 

EJ couldn't stand and deliver.

 

The OLine was not good but it was run blocking where it was getting no push. Pass blocking it actually was doing C+ job.

[Deranged Rhino]

You Guys are way off.

 

The NFL leader in time on pocket is less than 3.5 seconds.

 

Watch the game and count to 3 on the passing plays.

 

EJ had more than enough time on passing plays to deliver the ball.

 

If you're actually open and honest about the play you'll see there was time to throw.

 

EJ couldn't stand and deliver.

 

The OLine was not good but it was run blocking where it was getting no push. Pass blocking it actually was doing C+ job.

 

This is not a defense of EJ, but you're being too gracious with your OL grade. Watch the film this week, you'll see a different story. The middle of the line was awful all day long.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

EJ couldn't do this

EJ couldn't do that

EJ couldn't do the other thing

 

YAWN.

 

Please READ what we have been saying ,,, IT WAS A TEAM LOSS

[Buftex]

This is not a defense of EJ, but you're being too gracious with your OL grade. Watch the film this week, you'll see a different story. The middle of the line was awful all day long.

 

 

That is the key. EJ lost confidence in the line's ability early on in the game...we all know, even far more polished and accomplished QB's than EJ Manuel can be taken out of their game, when a defense shows it can get pressure up the middle. They got to him early, up the middle, so, consequently, even when he had time, he played like he had to get rid of the ball asap.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Buftex

[Stussy109]

Ive been to almost all of EJ Manuel's home games as a Buffalo Bill, live sitting on the 30 yard line. Yesterdays game was a prime example of Who EJ is as a QB. They fell behind by two scores early, unable to Hide EJ's deficiency as an NFL QB with a smash mouth run game, supplemented with play action and an occasional deep ball. From my eye, receivers were open many a times. Chandler was open two separate times, both for touchdowns, and Rob Woods was open on several plays. Granted he was facing a decent rush, but thats mostly due in part to SD having no respect for the deep ball... SD played 1 safety deep most of the game having 8 men in the box for most of the 2nd half. It got to the point where it was embarrassing, there were no players playing deeper than 10 yards off the line of scrimmage when SD was on DEF, essentially playing the "We'll force EJ to beat us" Defense which worked admirably. Most teams will continue this trend against us until EJ can let the ball rip, and let it rip accurately.

WR's playing half ass, not seeing the ball, and playing alligator arms on balls thrown to them were from them being disinterested and uninvolved in the offense with EJ's inability to complete a pass deeper than 10 yards, outside the middle of the field. Scott Chandler seemed visibly frustrated on numerous plays where he was wide open with his hand waving in the air, and EJ simply wouldnt see him. EJ is a 1 or 2 read QB, if his 1st couple options arent open, everybody else is running decoy routes for nothing. The few times WR's ran go routes successfully, EJ would grossly overthrow them, or as u saw once in the end zone almost throw a pick where Watkins has to turn into the defender. After Goodwin ran the crossing route and EJ threw the ball 4 feet behind him and Goodwin actually TRIED to make the play and was nearly killed from it, I think most of the WR's like Watkins packed it in and wanted to come out of the game healthy.

 

Other random observations, when Searcy got hurt and Duke Williams came in, he was the source of a lot of miscommunications and visible frustration from Aaron Williams on the field pre-snap. Aaron Williams was lining everybody up pre-snap in the secondary to the best of his ability but with obvious frustration. Credit goes to Rivers for running multiple guys in motion on almost every play causing a lot of confusion for our D.

Our 4 man rush was largely ineffective against what looked to be their Massive O-Line, unlike the Miami game where there was a big push and Penetration on most plays, against the SD O-Line, there was NO push at all. Both of the SD OT's were massive

Buffalo's Def strategy which in essence sort of worked (holding the offense to 20pts) was to shut down the run (which they did) and take Gates out of the game (which they did). However the weakness in that scenario was single coverage on 6'4" receivers deep with Rivers precision deep passing. Watching Rivers throw a deep ball on the money every single time, and watching EJ who almost never connects deep are night and day.

 

One Bonehead play on Marrone's part which i didnt hear anyone question him for his decision was when it was 4th and 5 and we were punting, we drew SD offsides for a 5 yard penalty around midfield giving us 4th and short when we were already down double digits, why not take that and run a FB blast up the middle for 10 inches, vs assessing the 2nd penalty which was holding on the return which moved the SD offense backwards after the punt return???

 

Overall the Defense struggled early, but made the necessary corrections and tightened up the leaks forcing punts later in the game, Offense, handicapped by EJ never got off the ground.

If we as a team want to succeed on offense, Fred Jackson needs to be the featured back getting 2/3 of the carries with Spiller mixed in the other 33% of the time. the offense consistently moves the chains with Fred in the game. The sooner Marrone goes to this strategy, the better we will be. The whole Offense rallies around FRED and his fight.

I didnt see us winning this game because of RIVers vs Manuel, but I didnt like how inept EJ and the offense as a whole looked in the 4th quarter. WR's not trying showed me a team who wasnt fighting for their QB, and maybe rightfully so.

 

It's getting to the point like it did with Trent Edwards, until EJ starts hitting the deep ball on a regular basis when given the opportunity, Defenses will smother the 10 yards and under routes.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Stussy109

[Captain Caveman]

You didn't watch the game if you believe the OL played anything other than a miserable, terrible, no-good, awful game yesterday. From run blocking to pass blocking, the unit looked terrible. Especially Pears who is the worst thing unleashed on humanity since Ebola.

 

At least there's hope for a cure for Ebola.

[Bocephuz]

Ive been to almost all of EJ Manuel's home games as a Buffalo Bill, live sitting on the 30 yard line. Yesterdays game was a prime example of Who EJ is as a QB. They fell behind by two scores early, unable to Hide EJ's deficiency as an NFL QB with a smash mouth run game, supplemented with play action and an occasional deep ball. From my eye, receivers were open many a times. Chandler was open two separate times, both for touchdowns, and Rob Woods was open on several plays. Granted he was facing a decent rush, but thats mostly due in part to SD having no respect for the deep ball... SD played 1 safety deep most of the game having 8 men in the box for most of the 2nd half. It got to the point where it was embarrassing, there were no players playing deeper than 10 yards off the line of scrimmage when SD was on DEF, essentially playing the "We'll force EJ to beat us" Defense which worked admirably. Most teams will continue this trend against us until EJ can let the ball rip, and let it rip accurately.

WR's playing half ass, not seeing the ball, and playing alligator arms on balls thrown to them were from them being disinterested and uninvolved in the offense with EJ's inability to complete a pass deeper than 10 yards, outside the middle of the field. Scott Chandler seemed visibly frustrated on numerous plays where he was wide open with his hand waving in the air, and EJ simply wouldnt see him. EJ is a 1 or 2 read QB, if his 1st couple options arent open, everybody else is running decoy routes for nothing. The few times WR's ran go routes successfully, EJ would grossly overthrow them, or as u saw once in the end zone almost throw a pick where Watkins has to turn into the defender. After Goodwin ran the crossing route and EJ threw the ball 4 feet behind him and Goodwin actually TRIED to make the play and was nearly killed from it, I think most of the WR's like Watkins packed it in and wanted to come out of the game healthy.

 

Other random observations, when Searcy got hurt and Duke Williams came in, he was the source of a lot of miscommunications and visible frustration from Aaron Williams on the field pre-snap. Aaron Williams was lining everybody up pre-snap in the secondary to the best of his ability but with obvious frustration. Credit goes to Rivers for running multiple guys in motion on almost every play causing a lot of confusion for our D.

Our 4 man rush was largely ineffective against what looked to be their Massive O-Line, unlike the Miami game where there was a big push and Penetration on most plays, against the SD O-Line, there was NO push at all. Both of the SD OT's were massive

Buffalo's Def strategy which in essence sort of worked (holding the offense to 20pts) was to shut down the run (which they did) and take Gates out of the game (which they did). However the weakness in that scenario was single coverage on 6'4" receivers deep with Rivers precision deep passing. Watching Rivers throw a deep ball on the money every single time, and watching EJ who almost never connects deep are night and day.

 

One Bonehead play on Marrone's part which i didnt hear anyone question him for his decision was when it was 4th and 5 and we were punting, we drew SD offsides for a 5 yard penalty around midfield giving us 4th and short when we were already down double digits, why not take that and run a FB blast up the middle for 10 inches, vs assessing the 2nd penalty which was holding on the return which moved the SD offense backwards after the punt return???

 

Overall the Defense struggled early, but made the necessary corrections and tightened up the leaks forcing punts later in the game, Offense, handicapped by EJ never got off the ground.

If we as a team want to succeed on offense, Fred Jackson needs to be the featured back getting 2/3 of the carries with Spiller mixed in the other 33% of the time. the offense consistently moves the chains with Fred in the game. The sooner Marrone goes to this strategy, the better we will be. The whole Offense rallies around FRED and his fight.

I didnt see us winning this game because of RIVers vs Manuel, but I didnt like how inept EJ and the offense as a whole looked in the 4th quarter. WR's not trying showed me a team who wasnt fighting for their QB, and maybe rightfully so.

 

It's getting to the point like it did with Trent Edwards, until EJ starts hitting the deep ball on a regular basis when given the opportunity, Defenses will smother the 10 yards and under routes.

 

Well said. Being at the game you can see a lot of stuff on the back end that you can't see on TV. Looking forward to seeing the All 22 to get the full picture of what was happening.

[Mango]

Ive been to almost all of EJ Manuel's home games as a Buffalo Bill, live sitting on the 30 yard line. Yesterdays game was a prime example of Who EJ is as a QB. They fell behind by two scores early, unable to Hide EJ's deficiency as an NFL QB with a smash mouth run game, supplemented with play action and an occasional deep ball. From my eye, receivers were open many a times. Chandler was open two separate times, both for touchdowns, and Rob Woods was open on several plays. Granted he was facing a decent rush, but thats mostly due in part to SD having no respect for the deep ball... SD played 1 safety deep most of the game having 8 men in the box for most of the 2nd half. It got to the point where it was embarrassing, there were no players playing deeper than 10 yards off the line of scrimmage when SD was on DEF, essentially playing the "We'll force EJ to beat us" Defense which worked admirably. Most teams will continue this trend against us until EJ can let the ball rip, and let it rip accurately.

WR's playing half ass, not seeing the ball, and playing alligator arms on balls thrown to them were from them being disinterested and uninvolved in the offense with EJ's inability to complete a pass deeper than 10 yards, outside the middle of the field. Scott Chandler seemed visibly frustrated on numerous plays where he was wide open with his hand waving in the air, and EJ simply wouldnt see him. EJ is a 1 or 2 read QB, if his 1st couple options arent open, everybody else is running decoy routes for nothing. The few times WR's ran go routes successfully, EJ would grossly overthrow them, or as u saw once in the end zone almost throw a pick where Watkins has to turn into the defender. After Goodwin ran the crossing route and EJ threw the ball 4 feet behind him and Goodwin actually TRIED to make the play and was nearly killed from it, I think most of the WR's like Watkins packed it in and wanted to come out of the game healthy.

 

Other random observations, when Searcy got hurt and Duke Williams came in, he was the source of a lot of miscommunications and visible frustration from Aaron Williams on the field pre-snap. Aaron Williams was lining everybody up pre-snap in the secondary to the best of his ability but with obvious frustration. Credit goes to Rivers for running multiple guys in motion on almost every play causing a lot of confusion for our D.

Our 4 man rush was largely ineffective against what looked to be their Massive O-Line, unlike the Miami game where there was a big push and Penetration on most plays, against the SD O-Line, there was NO push at all. Both of the SD OT's were massive

Buffalo's Def strategy which in essence sort of worked (holding the offense to 20pts) was to shut down the run (which they did) and take Gates out of the game (which they did). However the weakness in that scenario was single coverage on 6'4" receivers deep with Rivers precision deep passing. Watching Rivers throw a deep ball on the money every single time, and watching EJ who almost never connects deep are night and day.

 

One Bonehead play on Marrone's part which i didnt hear anyone question him for his decision was when it was 4th and 5 and we were punting, we drew SD offsides for a 5 yard penalty around midfield giving us 4th and short when we were already down double digits, why not take that and run a FB blast up the middle for 10 inches, vs assessing the 2nd penalty which was holding on the return which moved the SD offense backwards after the punt return???

 

Overall the Defense struggled early, but made the necessary corrections and tightened up the leaks forcing punts later in the game, Offense, handicapped by EJ never got off the ground.

If we as a team want to succeed on offense, Fred Jackson needs to be the featured back getting 2/3 of the carries with Spiller mixed in the other 33% of the time. the offense consistently moves the chains with Fred in the game. The sooner Marrone goes to this strategy, the better we will be. The whole Offense rallies around FRED and his fight.

I didnt see us winning this game because of RIVers vs Manuel, but I didnt like how inept EJ and the offense as a whole looked in the 4th quarter. WR's not trying showed me a team who wasnt fighting for their QB, and maybe rightfully so.

 

It's getting to the point like it did with Trent Edwards, until EJ starts hitting the deep ball on a regular basis when given the opportunity, Defenses will smother the 10 yards and under routes.

 

I agree with you, and this is where I tend to actually blame Hackett. When we should lengthen the field it seems as though his only solution is to run go routes. Where are the intermediate post, out, or in routes? Why can't we get a slant at 13 yards? From the looks of the Miami game, he seemed like he made the change, but this week against SD, we are just running these incessant go routes all over the field. This isn't a get out of jail free card, but it seems like we are putting our young QB in a statistically difficult position. One thing I noticed with the Miami game is multiple routes on a given play, multiple depths, and multiple directions movement in the route tree. I'll be curious of this weeks all-22 and see if he reverted back to the same old for in routes all the same direction on a single play. These sorts of plays are my biggest frustration.

[Captain Hindsight]

we had soo much success with EJ rolling out the pocket in game one...it gave him time and options and it seem to frustrate the bears defense...why in the last two games we've gone away from it?

its probably game plan specific. Honestly I don't remember much of the bears game game plan wise. Yesterday we just looked out of sync and never got it together. The one drive they were in sync they moved the ball with ease.

 

I'm concerned about the offense but not panicking yet. Next Sunday will be very telling

[Stussy109]

I agree with you, and this is where I tend to actually blame Hackett. When we should lengthen the field it seems as though his only solution is to run go routes. Where are the intermediate post, out, or in routes? Why can't we get a slant at 13 yards? From the looks of the Miami game, he seemed like he made the change, but this week against SD, we are just running these incessant go routes all over the field. This isn't a get out of jail free card, but it seems like we are putting our young QB in a statistically difficult position. One thing I noticed with the Miami game is multiple routes on a given play, multiple depths, and multiple directions movement in the route tree. I'll be curious of this weeks all-22 and see if he reverted back to the same old for in routes all the same direction on a single play. These sorts of plays are my biggest frustration.

 

To Nate Hackett's Credit, with the Defense playing 8 in the box and drilling everybody who caught the ball under 10 yards, the best way to beat that is to send a couple guys deep and have the QB connect while his WR's are single covered, just like Rivers did to us. On the otherhand, seeing EJ struggle, Hackett needs to bring some 10-15 yard routes back into the mix, and in the middle of the field where EJ seems to see open WR's the best. A good Coordinator can design the offense around the strengths of their QB and hide their weaknesses, look back at the JETS with Sanchez, and the Broncos with Tebow. If you take away EJ's draft status, and look at him from pure production, He's a bottom 5 QB right now...Could he improve to be a top 20 QB, possibly, but I don't see any elite qualities in him. to make him a top 10 guy.

 

Also i forgot to note, Gilmore is our 2nd/3rd best corner right now. Graham is our best, hes a gamer.

[1B4IDie]

This is not a defense of EJ, but you're being too gracious with your OL grade. Watch the film this week, you'll see a different story. The middle of the line was awful all day long.

I have access to the All 22.

 

I am very confident that EJ has 2.5 seconds on most of his dropbacks.

 

He needs to make a decision at that point in time.

 

It can't wait another 2.5 seconds decide to run.

 

One - two - three - throw or one -two - three - run.

 

Football outsiders tracks time in the pocket, but it is a really strange stat. Peyton Ranks "32" at 1.88 through the first two weeks. As in that is bad on the offensive line, but obviously Manning is just getting rid of the ball quick.

The Bills ranked in the middle of the pack at 2.3 seconds.

The difference between 1st and 32nd is a second.

 

The bigger point than the tenths and hundredths of seconds difference between each team, Is that you have less than 3 seconds as a QB in the NFL on ANY team to make a play.

 

The Bills O-Line gave EJ that 2-3 seconds on most passing plays, and that is all you can ask an O-Line to do.

 

Asking for 5 seconds to make a decision just ain't gonna happen anywhere in the NFL.

 

EJ had adequate time to deliver the ball on Sunday, he just didn't deliver.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Why So Serious?

[Deranged Rhino]

I have access to the All 22.

 

I am very confident that EJ has 2.5 seconds on most of his dropbacks.

 

He needs to make a decision at that point in time.

 

It can't wait another 2.5 seconds decide to run.

 

One - two - three - throw or one -two - three - run.

 

Football outsiders tracks time in the pocket, but it is a really strange stat. Peyton Ranks "32" at 1.88 through the first two weeks. As in that is bad on the offensive line, but obviously Manning is just getting rid of the ball quick.

The Bills ranked in the middle of the pack at 2.3 seconds.

The difference between 1st and 32nd is a second.

 

The bigger point than the tenths and hundredths of seconds difference between each team, Is that you have less than 3 seconds as a QB in the NFL on ANY team to make a play.

 

The Bills O-Line gave EJ that 2-3 seconds on most passing plays, and that is all you can ask an O-Line to do.

 

Asking for 5 seconds to make a decision just ain't gonna happen anywhere in the NFL.

 

EJ had adequate time to deliver the ball on Sunday, he just didn't deliver.

 

I'm not defending EJ.

 

I'm just saying you're overselling how good our line was yesterday. It was awful. You'll see when they post the new All-22.

[PromoTheRobot]

I agree with you, and this is where I tend to actually blame Hackett. When we should lengthen the field it seems as though his only solution is to run go routes. Where are the intermediate post, out, or in routes? Why can't we get a slant at 13 yards? From the looks of the Miami game, he seemed like he made the change, but this week against SD, we are just running these incessant go routes all over the field. This isn't a get out of jail free card, but it seems like we are putting our young QB in a statistically difficult position. One thing I noticed with the Miami game is multiple routes on a given play, multiple depths, and multiple directions movement in the route tree. I'll be curious of this weeks all-22 and see if he reverted back to the same old for in routes all the same direction on a single play. These sorts of plays are my biggest frustration.

Keep in mind that EJ decides who to throw to, not Hackett. The play call has a first option downfield then checkdowns after. The game is still moving too fast for EJ. He barely makes his second read before he pulls the ball down and runs.

[Deranged Rhino]

That is the key. EJ lost confidence in the line's ability early on in the game...we all know, even far more polished and accomplished QB's than EJ Manuel can be taken out of their game, when a defense shows it can get pressure up the middle. They got to him early, up the middle, so, consequently, even when he had time, he played like he had to get rid of the ball asap.

 

Absolutely.

[PromoTheRobot]

I have access to the All 22.

 

I am very confident that EJ has 2.5 seconds on most of his dropbacks.

 

He needs to make a decision at that point in time.

 

It can't wait another 2.5 seconds decide to run.

 

One - two - three - throw or one -two - three - run.

 

Football outsiders tracks time in the pocket, but it is a really strange stat. Peyton Ranks "32" at 1.88 through the first two weeks. As in that is bad on the offensive line, but obviously Manning is just getting rid of the ball quick.

The Bills ranked in the middle of the pack at 2.3 seconds.

The difference between 1st and 32nd is a second.

 

The bigger point than the tenths and hundredths of seconds difference between each team, Is that you have less than 3 seconds as a QB in the NFL on ANY team to make a play.

 

The Bills O-Line gave EJ that 2-3 seconds on most passing plays, and that is all you can ask an O-Line to do.

 

Asking for 5 seconds to make a decision just ain't gonna happen anywhere in the NFL.

 

EJ had adequate time to deliver the ball on Sunday, he just didn't deliver.

Rivers looked like he had more time because he stood in the pocket and waited. EJ was bugging out the second he saw a rusher. He just isn't comfortable in the pocket yet. Game is still too fast for him, at least it was yesterday.

[1B4IDie]

Rivers looked like he had more time because he stood in the pocket and waited. EJ was bugging out the second he saw a rusher. He just isn't comfortable in the pocket yet. Game is still too fast for him, at least it was yesterday.

I think you captured the difference.

 

The game didn't look too fast for EJ against Chicago but it certainly looked too fast for EJ against San Diego.

 

That comment actually gives me some semblance of hope for EJ. It is a long shot but if he can slow the game down he might be competent.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Why So Serious?

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I think the OL struggled at points, rattled EJ early, and played with footsteps in his head the rest of the game.

 

Well said. It got to the point that when EJ had time, he was so shocked that it flustered him.

[Maddog69]

EJ sucked yesterday. But to say he had plenty of time is just not correct. I was at the game. SD was getting pressure on him very quickly on almost every play. EJ made bad decisions and bad throws while under pressure, but he was most assuredly under pressure constantly. That said, Hackett needs to call 3-5 DEEP throws every half. Figure out which receiver is being single covered and let it fly. NO checkdowns. NO reads. NO other option. If you throw them 6-10 times a game you will connect on a few, you will get flags on a few and you will back the safeties out of the box. Do some play action bombs on 1st down when they defense is expecting Spiller up the middle for 2 yds.

[Bocephuz]

 

I have access to the All 22.

 

I am very confident that EJ has 2.5 seconds on most of his dropbacks.

 

He needs to make a decision at that point in time.

 

It can't wait another 2.5 seconds decide to run.

 

One - two - three - throw or one -two - three - run.

 

Football outsiders tracks time in the pocket, but it is a really strange stat. Peyton Ranks "32" at 1.88 through the first two weeks. As in that is bad on the offensive line, but obviously Manning is just getting rid of the ball quick.

The Bills ranked in the middle of the pack at 2.3 seconds.

The difference between 1st and 32nd is a second.

 

The bigger point than the tenths and hundredths of seconds difference between each team, Is that you have less than 3 seconds as a QB in the NFL on ANY team to make a play.

 

The Bills O-Line gave EJ that 2-3 seconds on most passing plays, and that is all you can ask an O-Line to do.

 

Asking for 5 seconds to make a decision just ain't gonna happen anywhere in the NFL.

 

EJ had adequate time to deliver the ball on Sunday, he just didn't deliver.

 

Rather than just thinking in terms of average seconds.. or time..Here are the key things I look for when judging O Line Play for pass protection

- Is it 3 , 5, or 7 step drop for EJ. You need various amounts of time for various drops. The O Line should block differently based on the depth of the drop.

- When he hits his last step of his drop 1.) He does not have to move from that spot due to pressure 2.) He has a brief moment to be able to go through at least 2 reads 3.) He has a window to throw through

 

If all the above are answered yes.. than the O Line did their job. If any of those are answered no then they did not do their job. From what I saw, it was roughly half and half. Ie.. EJ had poor pass protection on about half the throws.. and the other half he had decent protection. The problem is since he was moved off his spot early and often in the game.. it spooked him and caused some unforced errors later in situations where he had enough time

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

 

 

Go back and watch the game. This just iosn't true with regard to the pass protection. Even a "rookie" like EJ should be able to count to 4-mississippi and throw or run away.

 

And you don't run back into the endzone and take a sack...

 

He couldn't have gotten to 4 Mississippi if he started there on the safety play. It was a jail break. Right tackle and guard may as well have been tackling sleds.