A Few Thougts About The Game, in no particular order.....

[BADOLBILZ]

My position is that he will be an authentic #1 CB. I believe, with confidence, that for his position he will be ranked in the upper third.

 

 

 

I am far from being satisfied with his performance but I realize that he is impaired.

 

 

 

I strenuously disagree with the assessment that he is the 66th best corner in the league. The early stats are not the final stats. Inaddition, he has been plagued with injuries that have hampered his preparation in the offseason and have hampered him early in the season. You consider his playing hurt to be an illegitimate excuse while I don't. Only time will tell who is more right than wrong on this player.

 

I didn't say he was the 66th best corner in the league. That was an analytical ranking of him as a rookie which met the eyeball test to me. I don't know if you are intentionally trying to create the illusion that I'm making statements that I'm not or simply not reading what I've written but my point is about what little he has accomplished to date in relation to expectations. I also never said "playing hurt was an illegitimate excuse". I definitely think it's an excuse I just don't see why I have to NOT consider the inability to remain healthy as a mark against him. The league does. Personnel people do. That's why they say "avail-ability is more important than ability".

[BuffaloBillsForever]

Agreed he is a solid #2 when healthy. Seemingly capable of much more but perhaps not.

 

 

 

It's a nice analysis which attempts to draw a dubious conclusion by making a random assessment of what constitutes a good cornerback. So yeah, I can argue it and I guess we have a difference of opinion on what is fact and what is...opinion.

 

Nowhere in there is it mentioned that Gilmore does not put himself in position to make plays on the football. I can't emphasize this omission enough. It matters. Any omission of a CB's impact on the most important stat in determining the outcome of NFL games.....turnovers.....is incomplete to put it kindly.

 

Availability is not a factor for the author either. And therefore nor is there what should be a subsequent questioning of why he has been burdened by injury.

 

We saw a GLARING example of him hurting HIMSELF against the Chargers while using awful technique on one of multiple poor efforts in run defense.

 

Is he lacking intelligence? Awareness? An innate ability as an athlete to avoid hurting HIMSELF?

 

These are all part of the equation in analyzing him because he has allowed them to be. He hasn't distinguished himself.

 

Did I miss something with that article? The author went through the chargers game and I didn't see anything about Gilmore missing tackles in open space against the run and pass, with the one grabbing a face mask and getting hurt all in the same play? That is a play that should analyzed in detail. I am curious about his technique actually and if it is contributing to some of his injuries?

[Solomon Grundy]

I find it funny that people on this board is willing to be patient with Stephon Gilmore but are ready to call EJ Manuel a BUST after 13 NFL games!

[JohnC]

 

 

I didn't say he was the 66th best corner in the league. That was an analytical ranking of him as a rookie which met the eyeball test to me. I don't know if you are intentionally trying to create the illusion that I'm making statements that I'm not or simply not reading what I've written but my point is about what little he has accomplished to date in relation to expectations. I also never said "playing hurt was an illegitimate excuse". I definitely think it's an excuse I just don't see why I have to NOT consider the inability to remain healthy as a mark against him. The league does. Personnel people do. That's why they say "avail-ability is more important than ability".

 

The analytical ranking of him met your eyeball test. It didn't meet mine. That's where we fundamentally disagree. If you want to use his injury history against him then go ahead. Although he has been plagued with injuries he has also played with those injuries. So his availability shouldn't be questioned. He played with a broken wrist last year. He was playing with one good arm and the other had a cast on it, making it very difficult to tackle. That's what I call availability!

 

Apparently you don't consider him to be a #1 CB. I do. My position, contrary to yours, is that he is going to be a good #1 CB who will be ranked in the top third. You don't see him developing into that caliber of player. Let's just see how this plays out. You are confident in your stance just as I am confident in my stance.

Edited September 25, 2014 by JohnC

[jaybee]

I find it funny that people on this board is willing to be patient with Stephon Gilmore but are ready to call EJ Manuel a BUST after 13 NFL games!

 

Well, EJ has progressed very well in those 13 games. OK, I'm just kidding. He has probably peaked. He will never ever be an average QB in this league. They whiffed. If they took em in the 3rd round I'd say...good call as he may well make it as a back up some day up but lets face it. He will NEVER make the playoffs for any team as a starter. Will he have a few very good games ? Absolutely. Will he ever do it on a somewhat consistent basis? I highly doubt it. He's a deer in the headlights. His CPU speed is way too slow...throws off his back foot........cant read defenses.......cant throw accurately....makes questionable decisions although he has improved there. I think he's just not gonna make it in this league and its unfortunate. He is a classy nice fella and one that I will continue to support. Really like the kid but I'm just not seeing it on the football field.

Edited September 25, 2014 by jaybee

[thewildrabbit]

Well, EJ has progressed very well in those 13 games. OK, I'm just kidding. He has probably peaked. He will never ever be an average QB in this league. They whiffed. If they took em in the 3rd round I'd say...good call as he may well make it as a back up some day up but lets face it. He will NEVER make the playoffs for any team as a starter. Will he have a few very good games ? Absolutely. Will he ever do it on a somewhat consistent basis? I highly doubt it. He's a deer in the headlights. His CPU speed is way too slow...throws off his back foot........cant read defenses.......cant throw accurately....makes questionable decisions although he has improved there. I think he's just not gonna make it in this league and its unfortunate. He is a classy nice fella and one that I will continue to support. Really like the kid but I'm just not seeing it on the football field.

Ya know, that is exactly what fans were saying about Phillip Rivers in 2012. He is done as a starter, and might not even make a decent back up. Then in 2013 Mike McCoy showed up, and built a solid O line, run game, defense and suddenly Rivers looked like he did early in his career.

 

The same can be said about Matt Ryan last year, as the previously constantly in the playoffs Falcons since Ryan was drafted... went 4-12!! The Falcons players got over some injuries, they rebuilt the O line, run game & defense and should be in the playoffs again this year. They beat the Saints at home, and demolished the Buc's on Thursday.

 

 

I can't emphasize enough how important it is for a young QB to have a run game that can support him, a quality offensive line that can protect him. A line that can make a first down in the red zone or short yardage situation. A good offensive scheme, and play calling that works to get the proper players in space. Because without those things this young QB will probably turn out exactly like what we all saw in the past with JP Losman, and Trent Edwards. Then fans will say he sucked from the start, when in fact he never stood a chance.

[FireChan]

Ya know, that is exactly what fans were saying about Phillip Rivers in 2012. He is done as a starter, and might not even make a decent back up. Then in 2013 Mike McCoy showed up, and built a solid O line, run game, defense and suddenly Rivers looked like he did early in his career.

 

The same can be said about Matt Ryan last year, as the previously constantly in the playoffs Falcons since Ryan was drafted... went 4-12!! The Falcons players got over some injuries, they rebuilt the O line, run game & defense and should be in the playoffs again this year. They beat the Saints at home, and demolished the Buc's on Thursday.

 

 

I can't emphasize enough how important it is for a young QB to have a run game that can support him, a quality offensive line that can protect him. A line that can make a first down in the red zone or short yardage situation. A good offensive scheme, and play calling that works to get the proper players in space. Because without those things this young QB will probably turn out exactly like what we all saw in the past with JP Losman, and Trent Edwards. Then fans will say he sucked from the start, when in fact he never stood a chance.

 

Chargers defense sucked last year. The main difference between 2012 and 2013 was actually getting him weapons to throw to. Malcolm Floyd wasn't cutting it, they brought in the eventual OROY, Woodhead as a 3rd down RB. They signed King Dunlap, a former 7th round pick back-up, and drafted DJ Fluker, who struggled early.

[atlbillsfan1975]

Ya know, that is exactly what fans were saying about Phillip Rivers in 2012. He is done as a starter, and might not even make a decent back up. Then in 2013 Mike McCoy showed up, and built a solid O line, run game, defense and suddenly Rivers looked like he did early in his career.

 

The same can be said about Matt Ryan last year, as the previously constantly in the playoffs Falcons since Ryan was drafted... went 4-12!! The Falcons players got over some injuries, they rebuilt the O line, run game & defense and should be in the playoffs again this year. They beat the Saints at home, and demolished the Buc's on Thursday.

 

 

I can't emphasize enough how important it is for a young QB to have a run game that can support him, a quality offensive line that can protect him. A line that can make a first down in the red zone or short yardage situation. A good offensive scheme, and play calling that works to get the proper players in space. Because without those things this young QB will probably turn out exactly like what we all saw in the past with JP Losman, and Trent Edwards. Then fans will say he sucked from the start, when in fact he never stood a chance.

Careful about this. the Falcons are very fragile. If Matthews misses anymore time at LT this Falcons team will be in bad shape.

The run d only looks better because teams have not run much. The Falcons would have lost to the Saints if not for the fumble by the Saints WR and the Falcons got blown out by Cincy.

I get what you are saying, and the interesting move the Falcons made was bringing in Pioli to help pick linemen because Dimitroff is horrible at it. So far Whaley seems to know what he is doing in that Dept.

[zazie]

The analytical ranking of him met your eyeball test. It didn't meet mine. That's where we fundamentally disagree. If you want to use his injury history against him then go ahead. Although he has been plagued with injuries he has also played with those injuries. So his availability shouldn't be questioned. He played with a broken wrist last year. He was playing with one good arm and the other had a cast on it, making it very difficult to tackle. That's what I call availability!

 

Apparently you don't consider him to be a #1 CB. I do. My position, contrary to yours, is that he is going to be a good #1 CB who will be ranked in the top third. You don't see him developing into that caliber of player. Let's just see how this plays out. You are confident in your stance just as I am confident in my stance.

 

I dunno man, he has not shown it yet this year. When he is supposedly injury free. If Robey weren't so short he would be a far better CB instinctually than Gilmore is. true that. Maybe someone should go torch HIS lawn.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I find it funny that people on this board is willing to be patient with Stephon Gilmore but are ready to call EJ Manuel a BUST after 13 NFL games!

 

Plenty of people on this board impatient with Gilmore and next thing to calling him a bust as well.

 

I think it's only surprising if they're the same people (patient with one, calling the other a bust)

Edited September 25, 2014 by Hopeful

[Fan in Chicago]

Plenty of people on this board impatient with Gilmore and next thing to calling him a bust as well.

 

I think it's only surprising if they're the same people (patient with one, calling the other a bust)

 

Maybe I am trending towards that. But I have a perfectly fine reason for it - Gilmore is in his 3rd year and EJ in his second. Both 1st round picks. I will be much less kind to EJ at this time next year.

[thebandit27]

Maybe I am trending towards that. But I have a perfectly fine reason for it - Gilmore is in his 3rd year and EJ in his second. Both 1st round picks. I will be much less kind to EJ at this time next year.

 

There are things that I just cannot wrap my head around with the level of Gilmore criticism we're seeing here. Among them:

 

The focus of the defensive deficiencies we've seen is somehow on a guy that's been targeted by opponents' pass attempts six times the entire season. Six. Yes, he's only played in 2 games, but that number is exactly half of the times that McKelvin was targeted in week 1 alone. It's also exactly half the number of times that Corey Graham was targeted in week 2 alone. That means that (his struggles in the run game against SD notwithstanding), out of 123 passing attempts against Buffalo this season, we are focusing on the six sent in Gilmore's direction as a serious talking point for negativity. If he's not this team's #1 CB, I'm failing to understand how that's manifesting itself. A #1 WR is the player that the team tries to get the ball to most often in their passing game. Conversely, a #1 CB is the guy that opposing teams throw at the least often. The data here are very clear: Gilmore is this team's least targeted CB, and it's not close. Six targets in two games.

 

If we want to discuss his open-field tackling skills, yes, they need to improve. They also weren't even close to the biggest issue on the defense in the team's one loss (Preston Brown and Jim Schwartz's refusal to adjust, I'm looking at you). The problem is, I'm seeing people say that he "sucks", "blows", is not an NFL CB, is a liability, etc. etc. etc. None of this has any foundation in reality.

 

I'm perfectly fine with the opinion that Gilmore needs to play with better awareness, make more plays on the ball, be more aggressive against the run; all of those make sense to me. A lot of the other stuff just seems irrational and unfounded.

[thewildrabbit]

Careful about this. the Falcons are very fragile. If Matthews misses anymore time at LT this Falcons team will be in bad shape.

The run d only looks better because teams have not run much. The Falcons would have lost to the Saints if not for the fumble by the Saints WR and the Falcons got blown out by Cincy.

I get what you are saying, and the interesting move the Falcons made was bringing in Pioli to help pick linemen because Dimitroff is horrible at it. So far Whaley seems to know what he is doing in that Dept.

Those "who dey" Bengals just might be on their way to the SB this year.

 

I think one of the biggest issues the Falcons had last season was the loss of Julio Jones for most of the year, as he only played in 5 games. They really, really missed him. Plus, Roddy White 13 games, Steven Jackson 12 games, RG 10 games, RT 10 games. It was a who's who of crazy injuries. Atlanta looked like easy prey last year, and yet...

 

You are right about Whaley tho, as he knows the defensive side very well, and if graded on that alone he would get an -A (that minus is for Justin Rodgers ) OTOH, Whaley looks really bad in selecting O lineman, as his #2 & #5 picks this year are so far playing poorly. Not to mention his choices to replace Andy Levitre both this year, and last. The OG's on this team blow chunks IMO

Edited September 25, 2014 by FeartheLosing

[JohnC]

There are things that I just cannot wrap my head around with the level of Gilmore criticism we're seeing here. Among them:

 

The focus of the defensive deficiencies we've seen is somehow on a guy that's been targeted by opponents' pass attempts six times the entire season. Six. Yes, he's only played in 2 games, but that number is exactly half of the times that McKelvin was targeted in week 1 alone. It's also exactly half the number of times that Corey Graham was targeted in week 2 alone. That means that (his struggles in the run game against SD notwithstanding), out of 123 passing attempts against Buffalo this season, we are focusing on the six sent in Gilmore's direction as a serious talking point for negativity. If he's not this team's #1 CB, I'm failing to understand how that's manifesting itself. A #1 WR is the player that the team tries to get the ball to most often in their passing game. Conversely, a #1 CB is the guy that opposing teams throw at the least often. The data here are very clear: Gilmore is this team's least targeted CB, and it's not close. Six targets in two games.

 

If we want to discuss his open-field tackling skills, yes, they need to improve. They also weren't even close to the biggest issue on the defense in the team's one loss (Preston Brown and Jim Schwartz's refusal to adjust, I'm looking at you). The problem is, I'm seeing people say that he "sucks", "blows", is not an NFL CB, is a liability, etc. etc. etc. None of this has any foundation in reality.

 

I'm perfectly fine with the opinion that Gilmore needs to play with better awareness, make more plays on the ball, be more aggressive against the run; all of those make sense to me. A lot of the other stuff just seems irrational and unfounded.

 

You are astute!

 

Next to the qb position the CB position might be the most difficult position to transition from the college to the pro game. If you then factor in that the now more strict interpreation of the rules regarding contact against the receivers further advantages the offensive players then you reallize that the position, already very challenging, is now even more challenging.

 

I don't understand the excessive and harsh attention directed toward Gilmore in a game where his play had little to do with the outcome. As with the Spiller scrutiny the jaundiced eye toward Gilmore has more to do with the belief that CBs and RBS shouldn't be drafted in the first round rather than with an objective evaluation of these players.

 

I have said it numerous times and will resolutely stick with my assessment until proven otherwise that Gilmore is a legitimate #1 CB and that he, if not now, will eventually be

ranked in the top third at his position.

Edited September 25, 2014 by JohnC

[34-78-83]

Agreed he is a solid #2 when healthy. Seemingly capable of much more but perhaps not.

 

 

 

It's a nice analysis which attempts to draw a dubious conclusion by making a random assessment of what constitutes a good cornerback. So yeah, I can argue it and I guess we have a difference of opinion on what is fact and what is...opinion.

 

Nowhere in there is it mentioned that Gilmore does not put himself in position to make plays on the football. I can't emphasize this omission enough. It matters. Any omission of a CB's impact on the most important stat in determining the outcome of NFL games.....turnovers.....is incomplete to put it kindly.

 

Availability is not a factor for the author either. And therefore nor is there what should be a subsequent questioning of why he has been burdened by injury.

 

We saw a GLARING example of him hurting HIMSELF against the Chargers while using awful technique on one of multiple poor efforts in run defense.

 

Is he lacking intelligence? Awareness? An innate ability as an athlete to avoid hurting HIMSELF?

 

These are all part of the equation in analyzing him because he has allowed them to be. He hasn't distinguished himself.

Some good counter there...

However none of what was broken down on that site would be opinion. All facts - that's what I was pointing out.

 

I agree on the intelligence and availability concerns though for sure.

 

Just a little too much hind sight emphasis goes on (my opinion) regarding draft slot on football message boards.

There are too many variables and contradictions for any player drafted to hold an org responsible for,

There have been some really fantastic intellectually challenged NFL'ers out there for one.

[Bill from NYC]

Just a little too much hind sight emphasis goes on (my opinion) regarding draft slot on football message boards.

Yes but this is a two way street. Most fans (and I don't blame them) HATE to come to terms with the fact that a top 10 pick was a bad selection. This is because it's facing a situation that really does suck.

 

Look, I did this. For WAY too long. I thought that Rob Johnson was going to be a great qb. I looked at his skill set and thought that he would excellent. I learned my lesson.

 

The Bills have a nice pass rush and their front 7 is built for the run as well. Am I out of line for expecting a #10 (Gilmore) and a #11 (Mckelvin) to make plays? These are precious resources.

 

People defended Whitner for years. Some still do. The thing is, he was a #8. He cost the Bills well over 30 (36?) million real dollars and a true cap hit. We could have drafted Ngata. We skipped on Branden Albert and Clady to draft McKelvin.

 

We took Spiller at #8. Last week I was singing his praises for taking over a game. I will do it again if he performs, but he was a bad draft selection.

 

Watkins, who looked GREAT in week 2, cost us a #9 AND next years first. His qb is EJ Manuel. Do you like this scenario?

 

My point? Fans have the right to expect production from our best resources. And again, folks don't love to come to grips with the fact that many of our best resources were flushed down the toilet.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Bill from NYC

[zazie]

Yes but this is a two way street. Most fans (and I don't blame them) HATE to come to terms with the fact that a top 10 pick was a bad selection. This is because it's facing a situation that really does suck.

 

Look, I did this. For WAY too long. I thought that Rob Johnson was going to be a great qb. I looked at his skill set and thought that he would excellent. I learned my lesson.

 

The Bills have a nice pass rush and their front 7 is built for the run as well. Am I out of line for expecting a #10 (Gilmore) and a #11 (Mckelvin) to make plays? These are precious resources.

 

People defended Whitner for years. Some still do. The thing is, he was a #8. He cost the Bills well over 30 (36?) million real dollars and a true cap hit. We could have drafted Ngata. We skipped on Branden Albert and Clady to draft McKelvin.

 

We took Spiller at #8. Last week I was singing his praises for taking over a game. I will do it again if he performs, but he was a bad draft selection.

 

Watkins, who looked GREAT in week 2, cost us a #9 AND next years first. His qb is EJ Manuel. Do you like this scenario?

 

My point? Fans have the right to expect production from our best resources. And again, folks don't love to come to grips with the fact that many of our best resources were flushed down the toilet.

 

It is my feeling that finally we have in Whaley a guy who can both create a gameplan and execute on it.

 

the only decision re the above that was truly owned by Whaley is the trade up to get Watkins. A move I like and certainly has not been a proven bad decision.

 

Whitner, jesus, that was the worst draft day ever (excepting perhaps McGahee when we needed a player at every position EXCEPT RB). I think just about everyone knew Whitner was a bad decision literally within seconds. From the pundits to the casual fan. the only winner was Ngata who avoided being stuck with such bad management and coaching for his whole career.

[BADOLBILZ]

Some good counter there...

However none of what was broken down on that site would be opinion. All facts - that's what I was pointing out.

 

I agree on the intelligence and availability concerns though for sure.

 

Just a little too much hind sight emphasis goes on (my opinion) regarding draft slot on football message boards.

There are too many variables and contradictions for any player drafted to hold an org responsible for,

There have been some really fantastic intellectually challenged NFL'ers out there for one.

 

"Notice how he’s targeted a lot between five and twenty yards downfield and outside the numbers but isn’t yielding a high completion percentage in that area. That’s a sign of good cornerback play."

 

Cherry picked opinion.....not fact.

 

Defending all areas of the field at a high level, making plays on the football, being strong in run support and being out there every week.

 

THAT is a factual example of "signs of good cornerback play".

 

It was important for the author to throw that opinion in because that takes an article that seems to be objective and slants it in favor of his hopes and dreams that Gilmore is exceptional.

 

But like I said.....the omission of criticisms of his ball skills, durability and tackling make it seem to be an argument crafted to apologize.

 

But make no mistake, I am not a Gilmore hater. This isn't even a subject I'm adamant about because he's not worth it. He is too closely interchangeable with Corey Graham and McKelvin....basically journeyman types...for me to wring my hands about.

 

But the topic was brought up in this thread and the truth is that he has simply not played anywhere near the hype and was just plain bad this past Sunday.

 

If his third season as an also-ran type performer is OK with you or JohnC or Bandit then good for you.

 

But I want a supposed stud CB who is playing behind a 50 sack type pass rush to be making some hay on Sundays.

[mannc]

Well, at least we didn't draft Morris Claiborne. http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-2012-nfl-draft/. Not to change the subject, but check out what happened to every team that traded up in the early part of this draft.

Edited September 26, 2014 by mannc

[34-78-83]

Yes but this is a two way street. Most fans (and I don't blame them) HATE to come to terms with the fact that a top 10 pick was a bad selection. This is because it's facing a situation that really does suck.

 

Look, I did this. For WAY too long. I thought that Rob Johnson was going to be a great qb. I looked at his skill set and thought that he would excellent. I learned my lesson.

 

The Bills have a nice pass rush and their front 7 is built for the run as well. Am I out of line for expecting a #10 (Gilmore) and a #11 (Mckelvin) to make plays? These are precious resources.

 

People defended Whitner for years. Some still do. The thing is, he was a #8. He cost the Bills well over 30 (36?) million real dollars and a true cap hit. We could have drafted Ngata. We skipped on Branden Albert and Clady to draft McKelvin.

 

We took Spiller at #8. Last week I was singing his praises for taking over a game. I will do it again if he performs, but he was a bad draft selection.

 

Watkins, who looked GREAT in week 2, cost us a #9 AND next years first. His qb is EJ Manuel. Do you like this scenario?

 

My point? Fans have the right to expect production from our best resources. And again, folks don't love to come to grips with the fact that many of our best resources were flushed down the toilet.

 

To your overall point, I (along with any fan) agree. However you shouldn't lump organizational choices into one broad-sweeping paint brush in with past organizational choices such as Maybin and Whitner. This current regime (in my opinion) knows how to draft good players and that shows when you start "hitting" on 40/50% of your picks...Look around the league. That's a good number. And there's a perfect example in this very 2014 draft that displays the draft position point. Sentrell Henderson 7th rd. vs. Cyrus Kouandjio 2nd round. Does it matter at ALL now ( already just months after the draft) where they were picked. Sure it mattered a lot more when the Bills weren't drafting well in the recent past.