A Few Thougts About The Game, in no particular order.....

[HankBulloughMellencamp]

I can say with absolute certitude that EJ will not come close to being as good as Rivers.

 

Until a credible downfield passing game is exhibited the defense is going to jam the line of scrimmage and take away the running lanes. So I'm not going to be as critical of the coaching staff as you are.

 

Some people can't handle the truth, or choose to forge ahead in denial. But this is the stone cold truth.

[thewildrabbit]

I can respect you for hesitating on the comparison between Rivers and EJ. But I am not going to be as cautious in my opinion. I can say with absolute certitudethat EJ will not come close to being as good as Rivers. In baseball it's like comparing Trout to a less than 200 hitter. Some things are so obvious that there is no need to be cautious in rendering an opinion.

 

The OL, especially the guard play, has been a major disappointment. That is certainly a factor in the struggling running game. Glenn is a quality LT and Henderson is a very pleasant surprise. If more passes were completed downfield that certainly would open up more space for the backs to maneuver.

 

Don't you find it a bit paradoxical that Doug Marrone's claim to fame from all his past experience in the NFL is with the O line, and yet that unit as a whole is one of the worst on the team. He is akin a guru as Chan Gailey was a QB guru.

 

Think about the team starting Colin Brown at LG as Andy Levitre's replacement, and his backup that were both cut and gone by week six. Then finished the season with the backup center who was the worst graded player on the Steelers in 2012. Then this year they signed Chris Williams to play LG, and he graded even worse then that backup center in Legursky.

 

My take is this FO, coaching staff are either so obviously clueless about evaluating O line talent, or are purposely just trying to get by with what they find in other teams dumpsters because they simply fail to realize the importance of having quality offensive guards.

 

Until a credible downfield passing game is exhibited the defense is going to jam the line of scrimmage and take away the running lanes. So I'm not going to be as critical of the coaching staff as you are.

 

 

The quickest way to the QB is right up the middle, and when the rush is in the QB's face it makes things nearly impossible to allow the QB to step up in the pocket to complete those deeper throws. What is crazy to me is the Buffalo Bills possess one of the very best D lines in the NFL, so you would think they could find , see flaws in that line before the season started.

 

I look at EJ and see a superior quality athlete who has a cannon for an arm, who can make the downfield throws like Nick Foles, like Kirk Cousins. I think EJ is being held back in realizing his potential in the very same way CJ Spiller & Fred Jackson are being held back.

 

The way EJ is playing is so reminiscent of the way rookie OC Turk Schonet developed Trent Edwards, and where is Schonert now? Until the Bills field an O line that compares to the one that gave Philip Rivers all the time he needed to make his throws I'll continue to believe its not just EJ.

[Bills Fan of St Augustine]

The Bills have spent high draft picks on O-Line and Gilmore. It's not as if these positions aren't being treated as priorities. For some reason, these highly drafted players all decided to have a bad day at the same time.

Sorry, no. We reached for each and every OL pick up until Henderson and now we're getting what we paid for, two zero talent OLmen that are healthy scratches. Cryil and Cyrus. Now we have a serious issue with a starting QB that would probably be cut from 50% of the other rosters in the league and no number one next year. A WR who may be special some day, but Benjamin sure looks as good and he didn't cost and extra #1. "OL can be found later in the draft" no need to "waste" picks on OL. Sound familiar to some of you??? Over-rated OL, with under achieving QB....God help us..

[BADOLBILZ]

You are already writing Gilmore off as an abject failure? You got to be kidding me! He didn't have a particular good game against one of the best qbs in the league. So let's run him out the door and replace him with a less talented player. That's a recipe for destablizing an already unstable franchise.

 

I never said anything CLOSE to that. On the league scale he is a solid #2.

 

There is however, a difference between being the 44th best CB.....basically average personified.....and being the 4th best CB....a pro bowl performer.

 

He should be better and IMO the reason he doesn't show more is that he doesn't play to the whistle every snap like the exceptional CB's.

 

He seems to have a variable speed drive....and the evidence of it is starting to pile up.

 

Add to that the durability issues and it's very safe to say he is a disappointment.

 

Best example I can think of is former Bills first round OT John Fina. He used to say that if he held his block to the count of 3 his job was over. And that's how he played. Players like that will always get looked at sideways. Is he good or isn't he? Guys like that.....when things are going well they are good and when things go wrong they adjust to become part of the problem. You can't build on that or change a culture with players like that.

 

That's really not good enough from one to whom so much is given and who is capable of much more.

 

I think with Gilmore it's more about him not letting down his guard against lesser players or in positions where he thinks the ball isn't coming his way or the play is over....or in the menial labor of run support. Basically the competitive level of play you are used to seeing from players on good teams. Corey Graham has brought some of that here so at least we can see what it looks like for a Bills CB to compete like a CB on a championship team....even if he is just a #3 corner for a champion.

[JohnC]

 

 

I was pointing out the irony of your statement. On the one hand you are saying that BADOL is being too hasty is writing off Gilmore but you are doing the exact same thing by writing off EJ’s career. It is too early to either label him a bust or have one in Canton. You are confident in your assessment of EJ and yet don't like the fact that BADOL is doing the same (BADOL - I realize that you can defend your POV perfectly fine so this is not intended to assist you)

 

I did not say I want to get rid of McK and Gilmore. What I am saying however, is that if you draft a CB that high, he needs to be a elite corner capable of handling one-on-one matchups. As of now, Gilmore has not lived up to his lofty draft status. The D gameplan cannot put him on an island and rely on him making sure-handed tackles. It is perfectly reasonable to state that both McK and Gilmore will be no more than adequate to above average corners who will need a good pass rush and safety support to cover up their single-handed inadequacies.

 

You are miscasting my comments about EJ. Regarding the comparison between Rivers and EJ there is little to compare. Rivers is an upper echelon qb that I don't believe under any circumstances that Manuel will ever attain. That is not an indictment on him as a player. Qualitatively they are in very separate categories. But that doesn't mean that Manuel can't develop into a decent legitimate franchise qb. He has tools and is a high character person with an exceptional work ethic. In some respects (physical stature and raw throwing motion) he reminds me of Steve McNair

 

This organizaton took a big gamble when they almost immediately installed him as a starter. There are a variety of ways to look at that approach to handling EJ. On the one hand it might be accelerating his development with early playing time. The flip side of that is that it hurts the chances of the team to seriously compete for the playoffs.

 

I have not made a conclusive judgment on Manuel's ability to be a franchise qb. However, I have made a judgment on him that although potentially he can be a reasonable starter in this league he will never be an elite caliber of qb. His accuracy level and feel for the game simply are not in that realm.

 

As far as my judgment on Gilmore I disagree with Badol's opinion on him. Right now he is contending with some nagging injuries that have hindered his game. But I'm confident that he will be a very good CB in this league.

Edited September 23, 2014 by JohnC

[3rdand12]

You are miscasting my comments about EJ. Regarding the comparison between Rivers and EJ there is little to compare. Rivers is an upper echelon qb that I don't believe under any circumstances that Manuel will ever attain. That is not an indictment on him as a player. Qualitatively they are in very separate categories. But that doesn't mean that Manuel can't develop into a decent legitimate franchise qb. He has tools and is a high character person with an exceptional work ethic. In some respects (physical stature and raw throwing motion) he reminds me of Steve McNair

 

This organizaton took a big gamble when they almost immediately installed him as a starter. There are a variety of ways to look at that approach to handling EJ. On the one hand it might be accelerating his development with early playing time. The flip side of that is that it hurts the chances of the team to seriously compete for the playoffs.

 

I have not made a conclusive judgment on Manuel's ability to be a franchise qb. However, I have made a judgment on him that although potentially he can be a reasonable starter in this league he will never be an elite caliber of qb. His accuracy level and feel for the game simply are not in that realm.

 

As far as my judgment on Gilmore I disagree with Badol's opinion on him. Right now he is contending with some nagging injuries that have hindered his game. But I'm confident that he will be a very good CB in this league.

On this we can agree

 

I never said anything CLOSE to that. On the league scale he is a solid #2.

 

There is however, a difference between being the 44th best CB.....basically average personified.....and being the 4th best CB....a pro bowl performer.

 

He should be better and IMO the reason he doesn't show more is that he doesn't play to the whistle every snap like the exceptional CB's.

 

He seems to have a variable speed drive....and the evidence of it is starting to pile up.

 

Add to that the durability issues and it's very safe to say he is a disappointment.

 

Best example I can think of is former Bills first round OT John Fina. He used to say that if he held his block to the count of 3 his job was over. And that's how he played. Players like that will always get looked at sideways. Is he good or isn't he? Guys like that.....when things are going well they are good and when things go wrong they adjust to become part of the problem. You can't build on that or change a culture with players like that.

 

That's really not good enough from one to whom so much is given and who is capable of much more.

 

I think with Gilmore it's more about him not letting down his guard against lesser players or in positions where he thinks the ball isn't coming his way or the play is over....or in the menial labor of run support. Basically the competitive level of play you are used to seeing from players on good teams. Corey Graham has brought some of that here so at least we can see what it looks like for a Bills CB to compete like a CB on a championship team....even if he is just a #3 corner for a champion.

Kid is scared of the water . Not as bad as EJ but , Stephon Gilmore needs to change his game up . he plays unsure .

For someone who praised Coach Henderson last year . I am not feeling it this year .

Corey was fine piece for Whaley to score. He has a couple this year. Lets hope these CBs get settled down in Schwartzses D.

The Safety play has been pretty good I think . So there is hope for the season still

[JohnC]

 

 

I never said anything CLOSE to that. On the league scale he is a solid #2.

 

We simply disagree on Gilmore. I'm aware that he is currently not playing at a high level but I believe that it is due to injury reasons. In my opinion I see him not only as a number #1 corner but I see him being a CB who will rank in the upper third level for his position. Last year he played with a cast on his wrist. He showed me a lot from a character and physical standpoint. Let's just wait and see how this plays out. I'm as confident in my position as you are yours. Very often patience is more of a virtue than a liability.

 

 

[3rdand12]

We simply disagree on Gilmore. I'm aware that he is currently not playing at a high level but I believe that it is due to injury reasons. In my opinion I see him not only as a number #1 corner but I see him being a CB who will rank in the upper third level for his position. Last year he played with a cast on his wrist. He showed me a lot from a character and physical standpoint. Let's just wait and see how this plays out. I'm as confident in my position as you are yours. Very often patience is more of a virtue than a liability.

John . I must agree , patience is best here. Its not like the team is going to sit him ! They will be working on the kid. It would be foolish of me to call him a bust of any sort . He had a tough game . Lets see how Stephon and Leo et al

bounce back

[thewildrabbit]

You are miscasting my comments about EJ. Regarding the comparison between Rivers and EJ there is little to compare. Rivers is an upper echelon qb that I don't believe under any circumstances that Manuel will ever attain. That is not an indictment on him as a player. Qualitatively they are in very separate categories. But that doesn't mean that Manuel can't develop into a decent legitimate franchise qb. He has tools and is a high character person with an exceptional work ethic. In some respects (physical stature and raw throwing motion) he reminds me of Steve McNair

 

This organizaton took a big gamble when they almost immediately installed him as a starter. There are a variety of ways to look at that approach to handling EJ. On the one hand it might be accelerating his development with early playing time. The flip side of that is that it hurts the chances of the team to seriously compete for the playoffs.

 

I have not made a conclusive judgment on Manuel's ability to be a franchise qb. However, I have made a judgment on him that although potentially he can be a reasonable starter in this league he will never be an elite caliber of qb. His accuracy level and feel for the game simply are not in that realm.

 

As far as my judgment on Gilmore I disagree with Badol's opinion on him. Right now he is contending with some nagging injuries that have hindered his game. But I'm confident that he will be a very good CB in this league.

While I can see your point about EJ, and his current limitations. Those limitations are constrained to the coaching staff, and not him. Things can still change as he is still so young, and hasn't yet been fully indoctrinated into the Buffalo Bills school of severe concussions. Once those happen ...then he is done.

 

Philip Rivers sat behind Drew Brees, as he was unable to beat out Brees for the starting job. In 2006 Rivers stepped into the starting job on an already playoff team, and went 14-2. Rivers has a very unorthodox throwing style, and is so tall he needs to crouch to take the ball under center. He wasn't perfect out of college, and still isn't.

 

The fact that Rivers went to an already good team with the very best run game in the NFL, a very solid O line that had some excellent players. Then he had a very good HC in Marty S, and in my view one of the very best offensive coordinators in Cam Cameron.

 

Would it surprise you to learn that in Rivers first season as a starter he had only 466 passing attempts vs 522 rushing attempts, and LaDainian Tomlinson had 1814 rushing yards along with 28 TD's. A very proper way to develop a young QB.

 

While Rivers is about past the peak of his 10 year NFL career, and about the most complete journeyman QB in the NFL today. While a 5x pro bowler, he isn't in the same prominence as Brees, Brady, Manning, Rodgers.

 

Rivers stunk it up in 2012, and the prevailing thought was the guy was done. The very next season with an improved team around him (coaches & players) he became brilliant once again

 

 

EJ didn't get the chance to sit for two years behind a future SB winning QB. He didn't get the chance to become the starter on a playoff caliber team. He got thrown into the fire on a team where the coaching staff are no where near the caliber of what Rivers got the chance to work with. I've seen flashes of brilliance in EJ, and think its such a shame he is limited by the coaching staff, and players around him. He still lacks quality OG's, and a decent TE.

 

Think of what EJ could do with a solid O line and a young Antonio Gates like Rivers has had. With that alone I could see 3000 + yards and 25 TD's. Then should the Bills hire someone like Cam Cameron away from LSU to be the next Bills OC. Then I could envision EJ putting up Phillip Rivers type numbers. 4000 yards is only averaging 250 yards a game.

 

 

My long winded way of saying the book on EJ hasn't really gotten started yet. Then again, if this staff doesn't fix that line...

Edited September 24, 2014 by FeartheLosing

[Agent 91]

 

 

I think the opposite, kind of, of Spiller. I would like him off the field more. He kills drives, he just does. Unless we are running plays where the goal is to get him in space to do what he does, he doesn't belong out there. If the play is running between the tackles, or leaving a back in for pass protection, he has no business. He would thrive in a system that gets him more screens and outside plays. If the goal is to get Spiller the ball more, we need more of these plays, not just keep him on the field for the sake of it. I am not sure why we didn't get Fred involved more yesterday. He was the better grinding back yesterday.

 

Dixon too. I dont know why... but his running ability AND deceptive for his size speed leave me really intrigued. I want to see what else he can do.

[Agent 91]

 

 

Without a doubt he is not at his peak conditioning point. He had hip surgery this offseason, certainly affecting his training program. He has also had a lingering groin problem.

 

Last year he played with a cast on his wrist, essentially playing with one arm. So it is unfair to say that he isn't committed and not giving his best effort as others have claimed or suggested.

 

Played half the season without a cast. And with that said he would give up tackles maybe a few catches. I think I need to gauge your value of Gilmores ceiling. Do you think he is lock down or above average. Lockdown corners could win matchup with positioning, club or no club. A number 10 draft pick doesnt get face planted by a stiff arm from a no name running back. A lockdown doesnt get beat for touchdowns in consecutive games without causing turnovers. And if I recall McKelvin went into camp with a lower body procedure from the off season as well. Rusty. Sure but he shows up win lose or draw. Anyone who doesnt see Graham as our clear cut best corner and should be starting is nuts. Outside of thay. We have 2 system corners and another who we are still waiting on. McKelvin needs front 7 pressure to be effective. And Robey needs to be a blitzing slot cover guy. Im just waiting for us to figure it out.

[Agent 91]

 

 

How's Kirkpatrick doing? He was the other touted CB that year.

 

I wanted Janoris Jenkins. Hows he doing in STL? Is he even still there

[dave mcbride]

I never said anything CLOSE to that. On the league scale he is a solid #2.

 

There is however, a difference between being the 44th best CB.....basically average personified.....and being the 4th best CB....a pro bowl performer.

 

He should be better and IMO the reason he doesn't show more is that he doesn't play to the whistle every snap like the exceptional CB's.

 

He seems to have a variable speed drive....and the evidence of it is starting to pile up.

 

Add to that the durability issues and it's very safe to say he is a disappointment.

 

Best example I can think of is former Bills first round OT John Fina. He used to say that if he held his block to the count of 3 his job was over. And that's how he played. Players like that will always get looked at sideways. Is he good or isn't he? Guys like that.....when things are going well they are good and when things go wrong they adjust to become part of the problem. You can't build on that or change a culture with players like that.

 

That's really not good enough from one to whom so much is given and who is capable of much more.

 

I think with Gilmore it's more about him not letting down his guard against lesser players or in positions where he thinks the ball isn't coming his way or the play is over....or in the menial labor of run support. Basically the competitive level of play you are used to seeing from players on good teams. Corey Graham has brought some of that here so at least we can see what it looks like for a Bills CB to compete like a CB on a championship team....even if he is just a #3 corner for a champion.

 

This genuine factual analysis of Gilmore is pretty interesting. Yolo posted it in another thread: http://nblo.gs/109C1k . FWIW, I thought he played lights out at the end of last season, after his wrist healed.

Edited September 24, 2014 by dave mcbride

[34-78-83]

This genuine factual analysis of Gilmore is pretty interesting. Yolo posted it in another thread: http://nblo.gs/109C1k . FWIW, I thought he played lights out at the end of last season, after his wrist healed.

That's a great writeup and nobody can really argue with any of it. All fact... Thanks!

[Gray Beard]

Sorry, no. We reached for each and every OL pick up until Henderson and now we're getting what we paid for, two zero talent OLmen that are healthy scratches. Cryil and Cyrus. Now we have a serious issue with a starting QB that would probably be cut from 50% of the other rosters in the league and no number one next year. A WR who may be special some day, but Benjamin sure looks as good and he didn't cost and extra #1. "OL can be found later in the draft" no need to "waste" picks on OL. Sound familiar to some of you??? Over-rated OL, with under achieving QB....God help us..

I said they have spent high draft picks on cornerback and Oline in the past few years, therefore they recognize the priority. The fact that they did not choose wisely is a whole different topic. I think the only first round pick in the last several years that I have been happy with on draft day was Dareus. Spiller, Gilmore, Manuel and Watkins were all head scratchers in my opinion. I don't know enough about Olinemen coming out of college to have opinions, so I trusted the Dougs to know who they were picking.

[BADOLBILZ]

This genuine factual analysis of Gilmore is pretty interesting. Yolo posted it in another thread: http://nblo.gs/109C1k . FWIW, I thought he played lights out at the end of last season, after his wrist healed.

 

Agreed he is a solid #2 when healthy. Seemingly capable of much more but perhaps not.

 

That's a great writeup and nobody can really argue with any of it. All fact... Thanks!

 

It's a nice analysis which attempts to draw a dubious conclusion by making a random assessment of what constitutes a good cornerback. So yeah, I can argue it and I guess we have a difference of opinion on what is fact and what is...opinion.

 

Nowhere in there is it mentioned that Gilmore does not put himself in position to make plays on the football. I can't emphasize this omission enough. It matters. Any omission of a CB's impact on the most important stat in determining the outcome of NFL games.....turnovers.....is incomplete to put it kindly.

 

Availability is not a factor for the author either. And therefore nor is there what should be a subsequent questioning of why he has been burdened by injury.

 

We saw a GLARING example of him hurting HIMSELF against the Chargers while using awful technique on one of multiple poor efforts in run defense.

 

Is he lacking intelligence? Awareness? An innate ability as an athlete to avoid hurting HIMSELF?

 

These are all part of the equation in analyzing him because he has allowed them to be. He hasn't distinguished himself.

Edited September 24, 2014 by BADOLBEELZ

[BADOLBILZ]

We simply disagree on Gilmore. I'm aware that he is currently not playing at a high level but I believe that it is due to injury reasons. In my opinion I see him not only as a number #1 corner but I see him being a CB who will rank in the upper third level for his position. Last year he played with a cast on his wrist. He showed me a lot from a character and physical standpoint. Let's just wait and see how this plays out. I'm as confident in my position as you are yours. Very often patience is more of a virtue than a liability.

 

Your position is that he will be one of the leagues best CB's. My position is that he hasn't been and isn't still which, you agree with.

 

Where we differ is that you are vehemently satisfied to this point and I am decidedly not.

 

I don't know what the future holds but I tend to agree with the statistical assessment that he was maybe the 66th best corner in the NFL as a rookie and 44th best as a second year player. I then deduct points for a number of reasons clearly detailed and my conclusion seems pretty reasonable. He's been a disappointment.

[3rdand12]

just real quick. this a really good discussion gents all !

 

I read PFF writeup today ( link posted here and TY) on Gilmore and his pass game.

Thats swell.

Its his tackling and run game that i have the problem with.

[JohnC]

 

 

Your position is that he will be one of the leagues best CB's. My position is that he hasn't been and isn't still which, you agree with.

 

My position is that he will be an authentic #1 CB. I believe, with confidence, that for his position he will be ranked in the upper third.

 

Where we differ is that you are vehemently satisfied to this point and I am decidedly not.

 

I am far from being satisfied with his performance but I realize that he is impaired.

 

I don't know what the future holds but I tend to agree with the statistical assessment that he was maybe the 66th best corner in the NFL as a rookie and 44th best as a second year player. I then deduct points for a number of reasons clearly detailed and my conclusion seems pretty reasonable. He's been a disappointment.

 

I strenuously disagree with the assessment that he is the 66th best corner in the league. The early stats are not the final stats. Inaddition, he has been plagued with injuries that have hampered his preparation in the offseason and have hampered him early in the season. You consider his playing hurt to be an illegitimate excuse while I don't. Only time will tell who is more right than wrong on this player.

 

[3rdand12]

just real quick. this a really good discussion gents all !

 

I read PFF writeup today ( link posted here and TY) on Gilmore and his pass game.

Thats swell.

Its his tackling and run game that i have the problem with.

ps how many times did Rivers throw his way ?

I think the jig is up. Now it's on Stephon to step up