A Few Thougts About The Game, in no particular order.....

[JohnC]

 

 

So many players undergo off-season surgery and to say that because Gilmore did and it affected his conditioning to this degree is a cop out. He's got 2 years under his belt playing in the NFL with, one would think, NFL staff who can advise and guide him in conditioning and returning from injuries.

 

The pick is trending toward bust status early in his third pro season.

 

Claiming that a hip surgery procedure had little bearing on his conditioning makes little sense. Because of the surgery and rehabilitation time there is less time to get in peak condition. Almost every player who undergoes a knee procedure (not the cleanup scope procedure) is not the same caliber of player in his first year back. Odds are that the groin problems he is contending with are due to rushing back and training too hard before he was fully healed.

 

It is interesting how Gilmore has become a focal point in NYC Bill's discussion. The Bills defensive backfiled corps was playing against one of the top qbs in the league. He made some terrific thread-needle throws in this game. A qb of his caliber is not going to be completely shut down. What was even more impressive is that on the few occasions he was under duress he got rid of the ball to the right player. Considering the caliber of the qb and the mostly good protection he received our defensive backfield overall did an adequate job.

 

The Chargers are a good team with a high end qb and a good coaching staff. I thought the OC, Reich, called a superb game. The strategy was excellent and the execution was very good. The best way to describe our qb play was that it was [impotent. It doesn't matter how good your receivers are and how good your backfield is if you can't complete passes to your wideouts downfield then your offense is going to stagnate. Under that scenario you simply can't compete against a good team. It was evident to me as I watched the game. I never felt that we were going to win in this game.

 

No matter how this game is analyzed the difference in the outcome was mostly due to the disparity in qb play. Make no mistake about what I'm saying. I'm not saying that EJ has to play to the same level of Rivers, that is not realistic. He simply will never be that good no matter how long he plays in this league. What I am saying is that he needs to play at a reasonable level to give our team a chance to compete. As far as I'm concerned the disproportionate attention payed to our DBs is a distracting issue to what this team's main problesm is.

 

The bottom line is the GM (whom I like a lot) made a decision to start a raw qb prospect who has physical tools instead of bringing him along as a backup. That strategy might prove successful in accelerating his development but it has had a detrimental affect on the team's prospects of being a fringe playoff team.

Edited September 23, 2014 by JohnC

[Agent 91]

On his best day, EJ is a decent NFL QB. Some people were happy with his games vs. Chicago & Miami but let's face it those were decent performances. In his poor games he is just bad and for some reason EJ's stat line always seems to show up better than his actual play. Like Tampa & Pittsburgh from last season he gets a lot of stats in garbage time.

 

Not disagreeing. But how many of those garbage time throws went incomplete. Dragging down his completion percentage. His stat line could have looked beautiful had they not forcefed those last three shots into the end zone further skewing an argument for or against him.

[BADOLBILZ]

Claiming that a hip surgery procedure had little bearing on his conditioning makes little sense. Because of the surgery and rehabilitation time there is less time to get in peak condition. Almost every player who undergoes a knee procedure (not the cleanup scope procedure) is not the same caliber of player in his first year back. Odds are that the groin problems he is contending with are due to rushing back and training too hard before he was fully healed.

 

It is interesting how Gilmore has become a focal point in NYC Bill's discussion.

 

Excuses, excuses. Gilmore has become the focal point of the discussion because there are people who believe he is very good and refuse to look at the evidence. He drew the attention yesterday with a sorry effort as a tackler. He didn't excel in coverage either but his tackling was an utter disgrace for a CB who we aren't allowed to expect to make plays on the football. Ever. As for his injury woes......he hurt his hand facemasking a guy who he should have upended low so add that to his list of reasons why he can't be expected to perform better.

 

I've tried to give Gilmore the benefit of the doubt but as Bill said, when are we to expect Gilmore to be a difference maker?

[JC2002]

Not disagreeing. But how many of those garbage time throws went incomplete. Dragging down his completion percentage. His stat line could have looked beautiful had they not forcefed those last three shots into the end zone further skewing an argument for or against him.

 

It wouldn't have made a difference because if you are behind which we were and the majority of the Qbs completions are to the running backs well then that is playing into the defenses hands .

 

At a certain point you have to be able to consistently push the ball downfield especially with the attention our running game has been getting . Most teams with will gladly take EJ dinking and dunking for 80 yards because the odds are in their favor that he cant do that 3-4 times games and the drives will stall which is exactly what we saw . EJ completions rate in the redzone is 33% .

 

It does not take long for the defensive coordinators in the NFL to see what you can and cant do . EJ has only attempted one pass over 40 yards and while he doesn't have to air it out every play he should be taking a few more shots but because hes not airing it out its imperative that he take advantages of the opportunity when guys are open because without big play capability his margin of error is actually smaller

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I don't listen to the game-day opinions of Bills "fans" who live outside of WNY/CNY. I watched the game with a lot of other Buffalo Bills fans here in Syracuse.

 

This is just...weird. Watching the game on TV in Syracuse somehow makes you intrinsically superior to someone watching on TV in NYC?

 

Man up and disagree with an opinion if you like, but "-1" because you live in Syracuse is almost too silly to believe someone would actually express here.

Almost.

[JohnC]

Excuses, excuses. Gilmore has become the focal point of the discussion because there are people who believe he is very good and refuse to look at the evidence. He drew the attention yesterday with a sorry effort as a tackler. He didn't excel in coverage either but his tackling was an utter disgrace for a CB who we aren't allowed to expect to make plays on the football. Ever. As for his injury woes......he hurt his hand facemasking a guy who he should have upended low so add that to his list of reasons why he can't be expected to perform better.

 

I've tried to give Gilmore the benefit of the doubt but as Bill said, when are we to expect Gilmore to be a difference maker?

 

You are already writing Gilmore off as an abject failure? You got to be kidding me! He didn't have a particular good game against one of the best qbs in the league. So let's run him out the door and replace him with a less talented player. That's a recipe for destablizing an already unstable franchise.

 

I say this to you as I have often said to NYC Bill: Gilmore is going to be a very good CB in this league (top third) playing one of the most challenging positions on the field. If you think that by jettisoning a young talented player who had an average game against one of the top qbs in the league is the right approach to take for a struggling franchise then you are (in my opinion) very wrong and premature in your judgment.

 

Gilmore was taken high in his draft year in the range where he was ranked. In my opinion he is going to be an anchor CB for us. If you might want to solidify your opinion of him at this early stage in his career that is your prerogative. But I'm not going to do that.

 

I don't make it a habit to over-rate our players. With Gilmore I'm confident that he will soon play at a level I expect him to play at. On this issue we simply disagree. Only time will tell who is more right.

[GG]

You are already writing Gilmore off as an abject failure? You got to be kidding me! He didn't have a particular good game against one of the best qbs in the league. So let's run him out the door and replace him with a less talented player. That's a recipe for destablizing an already unstable franchise.

 

I say this to you as I have often said to NYC Bill: Gilmore is going to be a very good CB in this league (top third) playing one of the most challenging positions on the field. If you think that by jettisoning a young talented player who had an average game against one of the top qbs in the league is the right approach to take for a struggling franchise then you are (in my opinion) very wrong and premature in your judgment.

 

I think their bigger issue was his weakness in tackling technique (or lack thereof), not so much coverage. Which is odd for me, because if IIRC the scouting reports were touting his sound tackling fundamentals and everyone was excited that the Bills finally replaced Antoine. That's been his downside since he's been here. Maybe Bills need to bring Antoine back for a clinic.

[Fan in Chicago]

 

I say this to you as I have often said to NYC Bill: Gilmore is going to be a very good CB in this league (top third) playing one of the most challenging positions on the field. If you think that by jettisoning a young talented player who had an average game against one of the top qbs in the league is the right approach to take for a struggling franchise then you are (in my opinion) very wrong and premature in your judgment.

 

 

You say this and yet, ironically, in an earlier post you wrote about EJ : "I'm not saying that EJ has to play to the same level of Rivers, that is not realistic. He simply will never be that good no matter how long he plays in this league."

 

Using your own argument re: Gilmore, one can also say that EJ is still too fresh and faced a defense which contained Russell Wilson and co.

 

My opinion: EJ had 2 strong games followed by a clunker. Despite the Chargers D, I think he left plays on the field which would have shown that he is ready to take the next step.

Re: Gilmore, I too see the lack of effort which BADOL is talking about. Much as with McK, we have waited for a very high first rounder to show his worth and find ourselves making excuses for him every season.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Hey Bill. Normally admire your posts but I think you missed a few things today. Deleting things I generally agree with:

 

5) Nobody on the OL played well today. That's right, nobody, including Cordy Glenn. Pears was particularly awful from what I could see (along with Wood), but having said that, EJ took WAY too much time to make decisions.

 

I think you may be missing the fact that San Diego may have an under-appreciated D this year, especially their DL.

It's worth considering that SD is something like #4 in the league for points/game and #3 in the league for limiting ToP. right now.

This was not just at our expense - this is against the Seahawks, Lynch, Wilson; Arizona: Palmer, Fitzgerald. Yeah, they let AZ squeak one by them, but they may be a better D then they're getting credit for at present.

 

So did our OL play badly, or did their D have our number and play well? Time will tell.

 

10) The bottom line is that EJ sucked today. He waited to long to throw, AND to take off and run.

12) EJ goes down just a bit too easy for someone his size, especially on running plays.

 

I'm not tagging you in particular with this Bill, but we as fans can not have it both ways. Either EJ needs to protect himself and stay injury free so he can develop as our QB, OR he needs to fight to extend plays and take off and run earlier and more often.

 

Either or, not both. I have no complaint about EJ going down easily, if he's protecting himself and his KNEES. Likewise on not running.

 

In fact, from the parts of the game I saw, I thought part of EJ's problem on Sunday was making decisions too quickly. There were several plays where I thought he needed to wait just a little bit longer - a couple that Tasker commented on, too.

[dave mcbride]

Re: Gilmore, I've defended him for a while. But it so happens that CBs don't three training-wheels years before we're allowed to determine whether they're good or not. He's played 2 and 1/5 seasons, and it's not so hot right now. According to Football Outsiders, he was the 44th best CB last year and the 67th best in 2012, when he led all NFL DBs (including other rookies!) with 13 penalties. http://www.footballo...stephon-gilmore

 

He has not done much this year as far as I can see, but it's tough for me to really judge his coverage on TV. He allegedly completely shut Brian Hartline down in the first half of the Dolphins game.

 

Anyway, look at the bright side - he's probably better than the guy drafted four slots before him: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/23/jerry-jones-morris-claiborne-isnt-what-we-hoped-for/.

Edited September 23, 2014 by dave mcbride

[GG]

Anyway, look at the bright side - he's probably better than the guy drafted four slots before him: http://profootballta...-we-hoped-for/.

 

How's Kirkpatrick doing? He was the other touted CB that year.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Top 5 reasons we lost today:

1) EJ

2) EJ

3) OL

4) CB's

5) EJ

 

Do you have a stutter, or are you that incapable of watching and understanding a football game?

 

1) We appeared to design the D plan to contain the run. Pretty much, we did so. This came at the expense of pressure against a very good QB with mature pocket presence and ability to extend plays. Rivers had all freakin' day back there to pass sometimes. Any DB will be exposed, given enough time. When your leading tacklers are a CB and a safety, that is a bad sign.

 

2) Penalties kill. When you give up more than the length of the field in penalties, you will seldom win. The Chandler holding call that negated a beautiful 29 yd run by Spiller in the 2nd Q was especially egregious. Yeah, there was a bad PI penalty on McKelvin, but in general the penalties were spread around pretty evenly. Personal foul on Spikes? C'mon man, don't be dumb, don't be dirty.

 

3) I personally believe we got out-coached. The Chargers had two games of film on us, and they put together a plan that pwned us offensively and defensively. Give them credit and cross your fingers that both sides of the Bills adjust.

[JohnC]

 

 

You say this and yet, ironically, in an earlier post you wrote about EJ : "I'm not saying that EJ has to play to the same lev[el of Rivers, that is not realistic. He simply will never be that good no matter how long he plays in this league."

 

I say with absolute confidence that EJ will never attain the lofty level of play that Rivers has attained. Rivers is immensely a more talented passer and has a grasp of the game that EJ will never reach. That doesn't mean that EJ can't be a functional starting qb but his passing limitations (accuracy) are so glaring and his feel for the game is so robotic that his ceiling is limited compared to Rivers.

 

Using your own argument re: Gilmore, one can also say that EJ is still too fresh and faced a defense which contained Russell Wilson and co.

 

My opinion: EJ had 2 strong games followed by a clunker. Despite the Chargers D, I think he left plays on the field which would have shown that he is ready to take the next step.

Re: Gilmore, I too see the lack of effort which BADOL is talking about. Much as with McK, we have waited for a very high first rounder to show his worth and find ourselves making excuses for him every season.

 

Your standard for qbs is very low. In the prior two games EJ was average at best. What he did is not do anything to lose the games. If you are satisfied with that role that is okay. But accepting that low bar doesn't translate into elevating the team into the playoffs.

 

If you and Bado want to get rid of Gilmore and McKelvin then who are your options to replace them? I think Gilmore and to a lesser extent are legitimate NFL starting corners. With respect to EJ at this point you want him to play so he will not hurt you. That is not a recipe to making the playoffs. In all of my many posts regarding EJ I have not claimed that he couldn't become a legitimate franchise qb. At this point he still has a long way to go.

Edited September 23, 2014 by JohnC

[TPS]

I wouldn't go that far. I'd say this Bills team is in the middle of the pack based on current QB play. With better QB play they should be a playoff team.

I mean by that, they will make a game of it with 27-8 teams (they are capable of beating them); there are a handful I don't think they can stay with. Given the parity in the league, they will need some bounces going their way in order to take the division. These are 2 very tough road games coming up, so a split would be very good. Then we'll see what they are made of when Brady comes to town...

[Captain Hindsight]

How's Kirkpatrick doing? He was the other touted CB that year.

Well he doesn't play for the Bills so my guess is he already won MVP, a super bowl and his pick of victoria's secret supermodels

[Direhard Fan]

EJ didn't play well sunday. But it was good to see him run out of bounds. Stay healthy. He only has 13 games under his belt. Gillmor was bad. Beat long early. Boy I miss the blitz. I yelled and yelled and they didn't listen. Blitz-Blitz. At least once in a while. How about third and long. Fred or Dixon should get the ball on third and short. Not a happy camper. Houston will be the tell tale game. If we can play well and win it will give a great deal of confidence to the entire team. Go Bills. Boy I miss the blitz.

[hondo in seattle]

Would we feel differently if the season unfolded differently?

 

How would we feel if we lost against SD in the first game in the season? But we won the next two games - against the Fins and Bears? Would we all be more optimistic right now?

 

I know it's the most recent game, but is the SD loss really more representative and predictive than the two wins?

[thewildrabbit]

I say with absolute confidence that EJ will never attain the lofty level of play that Rivers has attained. Rivers is immensely a more talented passer and has a grasp of the game that EJ will never reach. That doesn't mean that EJ can't be a functional starting qb but his passing limitations (accuracy) are so glaring and his feel for the game is so robotic that his ceiling is limited compared to Rivers.

I can't say that with 100% certainty at all just yet.

 

Mostly because I think the current coaching staff can't seem to find a way to get the most out of their players. Let me define this a bit. We know how talented Spiller, Fredex are, and yet this staff can't find a way to make the run game work with all that talent. We know that both Fredex, and CJ are not the up the gut, three yards and a cloud of dust type players. Spiller needs the ball in space, not to be forced into the middle of the line with two scrub OG's blocking his way.

 

The Bills started that game Punt, Punt, Punt, with Hackett's infamous "hurry up and punt offense". The rest of the game went like this FG- half- TD, Punt, Downs, Safety, Downs. 15 rushes vs 39 passes is the formula for failure

 

The Bills need to find a way to make that run game work, and to be a dominate running team. To take pressure off of EJ, to keep the defense off the field. If not, then I don't see this coaching staff in Buffalo next year, and EJ will get a new staff.

[JohnC]

I can't say that with 100% certainty at all just yet.

 

I can respect you for hesitating on the comparison between Rivers and EJ. But I am not going to be as cautious in my opinion. I can say with absolute certitudethat EJ will not come close to being as good as Rivers. In baseball it's like comparing Trout to a less than 200 hitter. Some things are so obvious that there is no need to be cautious in rendering an opinion.

 

Mostly because I think the current coaching staff can't seem to find a way to get the most out of their players. Let me define this a bit. We know how talented Spiller, Fredex are, and yet this staff can't find a way to make the run game work with all that talent. We know that both Fredex, and CJ are not the up the gut, three yards and a cloud of dust type players. Spiller needs the ball in space, not to be forced into the middle of the line with two scrub OG's blocking his way.

 

The OL, especially the guard play, has been a major disappointment. That is certainly a factor in the struggling running game. Glenn is a quality LT and Henderson is a very pleasant surprise. If more passes were completed downfield that certainly would open up more space for the backs to maneuver.

 

The Bills started that game Punt, Punt, Punt, with Hackett's infamous "hurry up and punt offense". The rest of the game went like this FG- half- TD, Punt, Downs, Safety, Downs. 15 rushes vs 39 passes is the formula for failure

 

The Bills need to find a way to make that run game work, and to be a dominate running team. To take pressure off of EJ, to keep the defense off the field. If not, then I don't see this coaching staff in Buffalo next year, and EJ will get a new staff.

 

Until a credible downfield passing game is exhibited the defense is going to jam the line of scrimmage and take away the running lanes. So I'm not going to be as critical of the coaching staff as you are.

[Fan in Chicago]

I say with absolute confidence that EJ will never attain the lofty level of play that Rivers has attained. Rivers is immensely a more talented passer and has a grasp of the game that EJ will never reach. That doesn't mean that EJ can't be a functional starting qb but his passing limitations (accuracy) are so glaring and his feel for the game is so robotic that his ceiling is limited compared to Rivers.

 

 

 

Your standard for qbs is very low. In the prior two games EJ was average at best. What he did is not do anything to lose the games. If you are satisfied with that role that is okay. But accepting that low bar doesn't translate into elevating the team into the playoffs.

 

If you and Bado want to get rid of Gilmore and McKelvin then who are your options to replace them? I think Gilmore and to a lesser extent are legitimate NFL starting corners. With respect to EJ at this point you want him to play so he will not hurt you. That is not a recipe to making the playoffs. In all of my many posts regarding EJ I have not claimed that he couldn't become a legitimate franchise qb. At this point he still has a long way to go.

 

I was pointing out the irony of your statement. On the one hand you are saying that BADOL is being too hasty is writing off Gilmore but you are doing the exact same thing by writing off EJ’s career. It is too early to either label him a bust or have one in Canton. You are confident in your assessment of EJ and yet don't like the fact that BADOL is doing the same (BADOL - I realize that you can defend your POV perfectly fine so this is not intended to assist you)

 

I did not say I want to get rid of McK and Gilmore. What I am saying however, is that if you draft a CB that high, he needs to be a elite corner capable of handling one-on-one matchups. As of now, Gilmore has not lived up to his lofty draft status. The D gameplan cannot put him on an island and rely on him making sure-handed tackles. It is perfectly reasonable to state that both McK and Gilmore will be no more than adequate to above average corners who will need a good pass rush and safety support to cover up their single-handed inadequacies.