Red zone troubles

[NoSaint]

 

Marrone referenced that play in one of his interviews. He implied that there is a read on the safety and EJ made the right one and threw it to the right spot and Sammy didn't make the same or right read. He didn't come right out and say it but I'd bet on it. He differentiated from the first one, to Woods, saying we made a bad pass there. EJ surely didn't miss the throw. From behind you can see it pretty clear. One of them made the wrong read. I'm thinking strongly it was Sammy.

 

thats reasonable, and 2 young guys reading things different happens - but saying sammy did it to avoid the hit was a different story.

Edited September 19, 2014 by NoSaint

[Realist]

I'm sorry but putting all the redzone trouble's on EJ is a bit ridiculous.

 

-First, look at what the opposing defenses have been playing inside the Redzone. Zone. Playing 5 yards of the WR which takes away fade patterns(helllo Mike Williams) and the ability for the offense to stretch the defense in the redzone. Best way to force them to change? Effective running, which for 2 weeks straight the Bills haven't been able to do in the redzone.

 

-Second, the playcalling and execution.14 runs vs 11 pass. Looking further on that in 14 run plays in the redzone the Bills have averaged 1.28 YPC. That's horrible. If you take away Manual's TD scramble and the other one he had, it drops below 1. So basically the RB's and the OL aren't getting it done.

 

I know it's easy to paint the redzone problems on EJ with a broad brush, but the reality just isn't that simple.

 

This right here is the problem. The Red Zone inefficiency has nothing to do with EJ, people are talking about 3 missed passes, what about the multitude of rushes for only 1 yard. If you want success in the red zone, the running game must be working there. If a couple of those runs get 3 or 4 yards then your play action works that much better. I'm sorry, anyone blaming Manuel for the problem, to me is wrong. If the RB's and OL do their job we don't have problems.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

thats reasonable, and 2 young guys reading things different happens - but saying sammy did it to avoid the hit was a different story.

Right. I don't see that at all. He invited hits in that game.

[DrDawkinstein]

thats reasonable, and 2 young guys reading things different happens - but saying sammy did it to avoid the hit was a different story.

Right. I don't see that at all. He invited hits in that game.

 

Im not saying it was anything that extreme, but I do feel his injury influenced his read. Either way, Im confident they'll get it right next time.

[GG]

Marrone referenced that play in one of his interviews. He implied that there is a read on the safety and EJ made the right one and threw it to the right spot and Sammy didn't make the same or right read. He didn't come right out and say it but I'd bet on it. He differentiated from the first one, to Woods, saying we made a bad pass there. EJ surely didn't miss the throw. From behind you can see it pretty clear. One of them made the wrong read. I'm thinking strongly it was Sammy.

 

How are you coming to that conclusion? In watching that replay 10+ times, what kind of a safety read did Sammy miss when there's only one safety coming in from his left? If he cuts his pattern more to the left, that would put his movement square into the path of the safety, plus he wouldn't be running straight towards the end zone. If you are right that Sammy ran the wrong route, where the ball lands, Sammy needed to have been running parallel to the endzone based on the timing of his break. This was not a timing pattern where the ball was released prior to Sammy's break.

 

That was a great call in an obvious blown coverage, fins were totally confused on that play and got very lucky.

[Wayne Cubed]

This right here is the problem. The Red Zone inefficiency has nothing to do with EJ, people are talking about 3 missed passes, what about the multitude of rushes for only 1 yard. If you want success in the red zone, the running game must be working there. If a couple of those runs get 3 or 4 yards then your play action works that much better. I'm sorry, anyone blaming Manuel for the problem, to me is wrong. If the RB's and OL do their job we don't have problems.

 

Well apparently, according to some, the running game will NEVER get better in the red zone...

Edited September 19, 2014 by Wayne Cubed

[peterpan]

Is Urbik really worse than Williams at G?

 

He was pretty good the last two years. Better than Williams has been it would seem.

 

Why cant we get him on the field and give him a shot?

[Dean Cain]

The more you rely on the run the more it exposes your line. Great QBs like Rodgers & P. Manning make their lines look great. Manuel right now needs time to develop and eventually we won't need to put such a heavy emphasis on our run game.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

How are you coming to that conclusion? In watching that replay 10+ times, what kind of a safety read did Sammy miss when there's only one safety coming in from his left? If he cuts his pattern more to the left, that would put his movement square into the path of the safety, plus he wouldn't be running straight towards the end zone. If you are right that Sammy ran the wrong route, where the ball lands, Sammy needed to have been running parallel to the endzone based on the timing of his break. This was not a timing pattern where the ball was released prior to Sammy's break.

 

That was a great call in an obvious blown coverage, fins were totally confused on that play and got very lucky.

EJ threw it right where he wanted. A skinny post is an easy TD. Watkins ran too straight. I think it was fairly obvious having just watched it again a few times, especially from the back. I don't know what the read is. I assume it was the other safety on the far side who couldn't get there in time on the skinny post.

 

The ball was only a yard away. The safety never would have got there.

[GG]

EJ threw it right where he wanted. A skinny post is an easy TD. Watkins ran too straight. I think it was fairly obvious having just watched it again a few times, especially from the back. I don't know what the read is. I assume it was the other safety on the far side who couldn't get there in time on the skinny post.

 

The ball was only a yard away. The safety never would have got there.

 

EJ threw it where he wanted, but I don't know how you can be so sure that it's where he was supposed to throw.

 

There was no other safety in the play, only the guy coming from way left. Dolphins had a totally wrong defense on the field and that's why there was so much confusion. The safety was frozen because Chandler was running completely free on the left side. That's why I don't see how Watkins ran the wrong route, when at the snap there was obvious confusion on the defense, there was only one safety and EJ waited until Sammy broke to throw the ball.

 

Out of all the possibilities, I find it hard to believe that Sammy ran the wrong route as opposed to EJ simply misfiring.

[billsfan1959]

EJ threw it where he wanted, but I don't know how you can be so sure that it's where he was supposed to throw.

 

There was no other safety in the play, only the guy coming from way left. Dolphins had a totally wrong defense on the field and that's why there was so much confusion. The safety was frozen because Chandler was running completely free on the left side. That's why I don't see how Watkins ran the wrong route, when at the snap there was obvious confusion on the defense, there was only one safety and EJ waited until Sammy broke to throw the ball.

 

Out of all the possibilities, I find it hard to believe that Sammy ran the wrong route as opposed to EJ simply misfiring.

Right. Because it would be absolutely inconceivable that a rookie wide receiver could make a mistake. IMO, based on your posts in reference to EJ, I think it is easier for you to believe it was EJ's fault because it supports your views of him.

[Fan in San Diego]

Well now, I guess the obvious question to ask is WHY did the Bills' coaches keep going back to the same type runs, even though they were getting stuffed? It ain't Rocket Science out there, but OTOH, you have to be smart enough to realize what's happening right in front of your face, and if needed, MAKE A CHANGE. Great job guys (the OC & Maroon)!

 

 

 

Low risk is one thing. Running the same type plays, that are failing miserably, over & over again, is IMHO, incompetence.

 

I would like to see a few more sweeps or reverses to the edges.

[billsfan1959]

Every QB makes inaccurate throws EVERY qb

 

Could it be that Watkins was mad at himself and not EJ?

This. IMO, there are some on this board that believe EJ should be held to some ridiculous accuracy standard that few, if any, QBs achieve.

[DrDawkinstein]

Right. Because it would be absolutely inconceivable that a rookie wide receiver could make a mistake. IMO, based on your posts in reference to EJ, I think it is easier for you to believe it was EJ's fault because it supports your views of him.

 

This board runs by the power of confirmation bias.

[Dorkington]

This board runs by the power of confirmation bias.

 

I was just about to say the same thing...

[GG]

Right. Because it would be absolutely inconceivable that a rookie wide receiver could make a mistake. IMO, based on your posts in reference to EJ, I think it is easier for you to believe it was EJ's fault because it supports your views of him.

 

Irregardless of my views on EJ, I examined that play and factored in the possibility of error, given the play design and excution. And based on those observations, I find it hard to believe that the fault was with Sammy. I'm also trying to decipher what kind of read play calls for the throw to go towards the only safety in the backfield, as opposed to throwing it to an open spot away from the safety?

 

Funny how on another close play that didn't go as planned (Tuel's goal line pass) there was no shortage of blaming the QB, even though he threw the ball where the play call was designed, but foiled by bad WR route, or when Fitz was intercepted on last play of the Pats' game. All those were glaring errors by Graham. Not so much on this particular throw.

 

And judging by your response, does this signal the end of calling EJ a rookie QB?

[thebandit27]

This right here is the problem. The Red Zone inefficiency has nothing to do with EJ, people are talking about 3 missed passes, what about the multitude of rushes for only 1 yard. If you want success in the red zone, the running game must be working there. If a couple of those runs get 3 or 4 yards then your play action works that much better. I'm sorry, anyone blaming Manuel for the problem, to me is wrong. If the RB's and OL do their job we don't have problems.

 

I'm not sure that's true...

 

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct

 

If you look at the teams in red zone TD percentage, there's almost no correlation to being able to run the ball.

 

Of Oakland, Atlanta, Chicago, NYG, and Denver (top 5 in red zone TD %age), they rank 21st, 11th, 22nd, 30th, and 24th in YPC overall. For reference, Buffalo ranks tied for 11th.

 

If you go further into the rest of the top 10, you get Seattle, NO, SD, NE, and Minnesota, who rank 1st, 2nd, 31st, 19th, and 10th.

 

No real correlation.

 

What I do notice is that most of those teams has a big target that can fight for jump balls--save for Oakland and Seattle.

 

Atlanta - Julio

Chicago - Marshall/Jeffrey/Bennett

NYG - Randle/Donnell

Denver - Thomas/Thomas

NO - Colston/Graham

SD - Gates/Allen

NE - Gronk

Minnesota - Patterson/Rudolph

 

Not sure that answers any questions, but it does make me think that Buffalo needs to do a better job of getting Mike Williams and Chandler involved in the red zone.

[San-O]

Eric Wood is just an average center and in the redzone his inability to get low and gain leverage is a problem for the running game. He has two levels, upright or on his belly.

 

Williams is even less capable of getting low and he really struggles physically but he is just so huge......and intelligent.......that he does a pretty fair job between the 20's where DL are playing more upright.

 

Basically this line is built to pass protect and run between the 20's.

 

Ultimately the redzone problems mostly come down to EJ's accuracy. The line isn't built to move the LOS in the redzone but he has had pretty good protection so it's not like he has been running for his life.....but he just misses too many easy throws. In the Dolphins game....first he missed an easy first down conversion to Woods in the redzone and then on the subsequent drive he missed Sammy on a wide open TD and then threw a ball that Sammy had to fall down to catch on a play that would have been an easy redzone first down conversion.....all in the second quarter. He played really poorly in the second quarter in general. Tannehill missed his share of throws too but that's not an excuse. Tannehill is very inconsistent.

 

Agreed. I don't know what they can do other than spread the field and stop running up the middle, particularly with C.J., it's maddening.

[thebandit27]

Irregardless of my views on EJ, I examined that play and factored in the possibility of error, given the play design and excution. And based on those observations, I find it hard to believe that the fault was with Sammy. I'm also trying to decipher what kind of read play calls for the throw to go towards the only safety in the backfield, as opposed to throwing it to an open spot away from the safety?

 

Funny how on another close play that didn't go as planned (Tuel's goal line pass) there was no shortage of blaming the QB, even though he threw the ball where the play call was designed, but foiled by bad WR route, or when Fitz was intercepted on last play of the Pats' game. All those were glaring errors by Graham. Not so much on this particular throw.

 

And judging by your response, does this signal the end of calling EJ a rookie QB?

 

You're losing credibility when you say that Tuel's INT was a bad WR route. It wasn't...at all.

 

He made a good pre-snap read, but a poor post-snap decision to throw to T.J. Graham (who ran his route properly, but was undercut--albeit accidentally--by a CB that fell down when he got faked out of his shorts).

 

http://www.wgr550.com/JW-All-22-Review-Week-9-Bills-Chiefs/17694609

[Kelly the Dog]

Irregardless of my views on EJ, I examined that play and factored in the possibility of error, given the play design and excution. And based on those observations, I find it hard to believe that the fault was with Sammy. I'm also trying to decipher what kind of read play calls for the throw to go towards the only safety in the backfield, as opposed to throwing it to an open spot away from the safety?

 

Funny how on another close play that didn't go as planned (Tuel's goal line pass) there was no shortage of blaming the QB, even though he threw the ball where the play call was designed, but foiled by bad WR route, or when Fitz was intercepted on last play of the Pats' game. All those were glaring errors by Graham. Not so much on this particular throw.

 

And judging by your response, does this signal the end of calling EJ a rookie QB?

I'm basing it on what Marrone said, or at least how I interpreted what he said, as well as my own reading of the play. If EJ looks right to a spot and throws it to a spot, and the guy is a yard away because he ran a pattern where he was supposed to cut on more of a post that a go, or a (just say) 5 degree angles instead of a 15 degree angle, that easily could have been the result.

 

Marrone clearly said we didn't make the pass on the first one (Woods) and we didn't make the right read on the second one (Watkins made one and EJ made the other) and I thought he was implying it was not EJ because he was saying QBs get all the blame sometimes when it's not true.