Red zone troubles

[C.Biscuit97]

A beast of a TE woudl help a lot. Jimmy Graham or Gronk solve a lot of redzone issues.

[BADOLBILZ]

IMO, the issue about EJ's accuracy has been completely blown out of proportion...to the point of almost being ridiculous. Breakdown the game tape of just about any QB in the league and you will find similar plays. As an aside, regarding the missed pass to a wide open Watkins: How in the world can you be so certain that Watkins wasn't supposed to take that route more to the inside?

 

Well he had open receivers and made bad throws on those occasions. If it's blown out of proportion it won't keep happening will it? We aren't talking about week 16 here, it is two weeks in so I'm not sure how out of proportion it's been blown. The talk about his accuracy in the preseason was about him being inaccurate on all kinds of throws in camp and in preseason games.

 

As for Sammy, I think it was obvious by his angry reaction that he didn't feel like he ran the wrong route. The uncontested TD was straight ahead. The potential pass break-up was at the post. Was it a sight adjust? Probably. But when you are a rookie you probably expect the second year guy to see that if you do. But, in any event...... EJ threw it short for either route. I have a suspicion that Sammy will not just go quietly back to huddles if EJ misses him regularly or if EJ can't see the adjustments. Watkins wants to be great, IMO. And he played well enough to have had a 150 yard+ and 2 TD game. If not for a great play by Grimes a 200+ and 3 TD's.

[John from Riverside]

Well he had open receivers and made bad throws on those occasions. If it's blown out of proportion it won't keep happening will it? We aren't talking about week 16 here, it is two weeks in so I'm not sure how out of proportion it's been blown. The talk about his accuracy in the preseason was about him being inaccurate on all kinds of throws in camp and in preseason games.

 

As for Sammy, I think it was obvious by his angry reaction that he didn't feel like he ran the wrong route. The uncontested TD was straight ahead. The potential pass break-up was at the post. Was it a sight adjust? Probably. But when you are a rookie you probably expect the second year guy to see that if you do. But, in any event...... EJ threw it short for either route. I have a suspicion that Sammy will not just go quietly back to huddles if EJ misses him regularly or if EJ can't see the adjustments. Watkins wants to be great, IMO. And he played well enough to have had a 150 yard+ and 2 TD game. If not for a great play by Grimes a 200+ and 3 TD's.

 

Every QB makes inaccurate throws EVERY qb

 

Could it be that Watkins was mad at himself and not EJ?

[Gugny]

Every QB makes inaccurate throws EVERY qb

 

Could it be that Watkins was mad at himself and not EJ?

John. Don't feed the troll. Not worth it.

[BADOLBILZ]

Every QB makes inaccurate throws EVERY qb

 

Could it be that Watkins was mad at himself and not EJ?

 

It could be. Maybe Sammy uses a different type of body language for "my bad". But we can also grasp for straws like saying that EJ intentionally threw the fade out of bounds or two hopped Woods on purpose or intentionally threw another would-be 3rd down conversion at Watkins feet.

 

EJ has a history of poor ball placement and streaky play and the Bills have struggled in the redzone with him as their QB. You can say he needs time and experience to be expected to make better throws but denying that the throws were bad is pointless. If Fitz or Trent had thrown those same passes fans would be furious......simply because they were bad passes in the redzone.

 

I'm not here to trash EJ. He has played well enough to win with the better team the past two weeks but he can do much better without having to be Peyton Manning. There is no need to pretend that he wasn't a very weak link in the redzone on Sunday.

[Gugny]

It could be. Maybe Sammy uses a different type of body language for "my bad". But we can also grasp for straws like saying that EJ intentionally threw the fade out of bounds or two hopped Woods on purpose or intentionally threw another would-be 3rd down conversion at Watkins feet.

 

EJ has a history of poor ball placement and streaky play and the Bills have struggled in the redzone with him as their QB. You can say he needs time and experience to be expected to make better throws but denying that the throws were bad is pointless. If Fitz or Trent had thrown those same passes fans would be furious......simply because they were bad passes in the redzone.

 

I'm not here to trash EJ. He has played well enough to win with the better team the past two weeks but he can do much better without having to be Peyton Manning. There is no need to pretend that he wasn't a very weak link in the redzone on Sunday.

How can a 12 game career provide you with a "history?" He wasn't weak in the redzone; the entire offense was (as illustrated in my earlier post). Your anti-EJ crusade is clear to everyone, so why say you're not here to trash him?

[thewildrabbit]

A beast of a TE woudl help a lot. Jimmy Graham or Gronk solve a lot of redzone issues.

I don't get it either. I think this is a pet peeve of a lot of posters here over the years.

 

Imagine what EJ could do with a TE like Antonio Gates in his receiving corps. I can't imagine why the FO has been so reluctant to spend a top round draft pick on a top TE...or even try and draft a decent one in later rounds....and yea, Jordan Cameron in the 4th or Julius Thomas in the 4th.

 

Even as lame as Jauron was at least he tried to trade for Tony Gonzalez. Instead the Bills continue to cherish a waiver wire pickup who is a decent receiver at times who is a liability at times in blocking.

 

 

Then there is also the issue of also trying to make do with waiver wire pickups or dumpster diving for OG's. The Bills haven't even attempted to draft a first round an OG since(Ruben Brown in 1995) a 9x pro bowler.

[l< j]

 

 

 

 

33 rushes for 193 yards against Chicago in netting a 5.84 avg is outstanding, - Then take away the 2 big run plays by Jackson (38) & Dixon (47) that amounted to 85 yards, and you have a less desirable 3.48 YPC avg. We know that the Bears defense was really bad last year, and they look to be about that same way this year.

 

Same thing with Miami, 33 rushes for 113 yards is 3.42 YPC avg, then take away the big run by Spiller for 52 yards, and you have a horrid 61 yards on 32 carries which equals 1.90 YPC average. So, lets say the Dolphins are a top run defense.

 

If you are going to claim that total (rushing yards minus longest 2 yards)/carries is a meaningful statistic, you can't compare it to other teams' straight-up YPC.

 

I'll bet 3.42 yards compares pretty well if you take out other teams' long runs, too.

 

kj

[thewildrabbit]

If you are going to claim that total (rushing yards minus longest 2 yards)/carries is a meaningful statistic, you can't compare it to other teams' straight-up YPC.

 

I'll bet 3.42 yards compares pretty well if you take out other teams' long runs, too.

 

kj

and that 3.42 was against the Bears 28th ranked run defense. The bigger point being is if you take away ONE big gainer by Spiller against the Dolphins they only averaged a pathetic 1.90 yards per carry average. Downright freaking unacceptable by any standard when you consider the talent at RB on the Buffalo Bills.

 

Not only were there not any holes...the RB's were being greeted in the backfield on several plays. Like Dixon -1 yards on one carry, or Spiller -4 yards on one carry. Add the fact in the very beginning post in this thread, and statement by ESPN that FedEx had 6 red zone runs that gained 0 yards.

 

Don't get me wrong here as in pass protection the Bills have been very good, as they basically made a top pass rusher (who killed Brady the week earlier) become invisible against a rookie RT. Alas, the run game must improve, or losses will ensue. JMO

[l< j]

and that 3.42 was against the Bears 28th ranked run defense. The bigger point being is if you take away ONE big gainer by Spiller against the Dolphins they only averaged a pathetic 1.90 yards per carry average. Downright freaking unacceptable by any standard when you consider the talent at RB on the Buffalo Bills.

 

Not only were there not any holes...the RB's were being greeted in the backfield on several plays. Like Dixon -1 yards on one carry, or Spiller -4 yards on one carry. Add the fact in the very beginning post in this thread, and statement by ESPN that FedEx had 6 red zone runs that gained 0 yards.

 

Don't get me wrong here as in pass protection the Bills have been very good, as they basically made a top pass rusher (who killed Brady the week earlier) become invisible against a rookie RT. Alas, the run game must improve, or losses will ensue. JMO

 

And my point is that we don't know exactly how pathetic that 1.9 YPC is unless we perform the same work on other teams' carries. I'm not saying it's good, because I can see (even me) the running plays being blown up and the plays not developing in any way. But we don't know how bad without adjusting other teams' YPC in the same way (and our expectations).

 

kj

[Wayne Cubed]

It could be. Maybe Sammy uses a different type of body language for "my bad". But we can also grasp for straws like saying that EJ intentionally threw the fade out of bounds or two hopped Woods on purpose or intentionally threw another would-be 3rd down conversion at Watkins feet.

 

EJ has a history of poor ball placement and streaky play and the Bills have struggled in the redzone with him as their QB. You can say he needs time and experience to be expected to make better throws but denying that the throws were bad is pointless. If Fitz or Trent had thrown those same passes fans would be furious......simply because they were bad passes in the redzone.

 

I'm not here to trash EJ. He has played well enough to win with the better team the past two weeks but he can do much better without having to be Peyton Manning. There is no need to pretend that he wasn't a very weak link in the redzone on Sunday.

 

I'm sorry but putting all the redzone trouble's on EJ is a bit ridiculous.

 

-First, look at what the opposing defenses have been playing inside the Redzone. Zone. Playing 5 yards of the WR which takes away fade patterns(helllo Mike Williams) and the ability for the offense to stretch the defense in the redzone. Best way to force them to change? Effective running, which for 2 weeks straight the Bills haven't been able to do in the redzone.

 

-Second, the playcalling and execution.14 runs vs 11 pass. Looking further on that in 14 run plays in the redzone the Bills have averaged 1.28 YPC. That's horrible. If you take away Manual's TD scramble and the other one he had, it drops below 1. So basically the RB's and the OL aren't getting it done.

 

I know it's easy to paint the redzone problems on EJ with a broad brush, but the reality just isn't that simple.

[C.Biscuit97]

I don't get it either. I think this is a pet peeve of a lot of posters here over the years.

 

Imagine what EJ could do with a TE like Antonio Gates in his receiving corps. I can't imagine why the FO has been so reluctant to spend a top round draft pick on a top TE...or even try and draft a decent one in later rounds....and yea, Jordan Cameron in the 4th or Julius Thomas in the 4th.

 

Even as lame as Jauron was at least he tried to trade for Tony Gonzalez. Instead the Bills continue to cherish a waiver wire pickup who is a decent receiver at times who is a liability at times in blocking.

 

 

Then there is also the issue of also trying to make do with waiver wire pickups or dumpster diving for OG's. The Bills haven't even attempted to draft a first round an OG since(Ruben Brown in 1995) a 9x pro bowler.

 

It's the one major weakness with this team IMO. Any QB would benefit from a good TE, especially a young one. I like Chandler but he is a bottom starting TE. He plays smaller than his size. How many 2nd or higher draft picks have ever spend on a TE? Imagine a good TE with our receiving core. Unstoppable. This should be a top priority next offseason.

[BADOLBILZ]

I'm sorry but putting all the redzone trouble's on EJ is a bit ridiculous.

 

-First, look at what the opposing defenses have been playing inside the Redzone. Zone. Playing 5 yards of the WR which takes away fade patterns(helllo Mike Williams) and the ability for the offense to stretch the defense in the redzone. Best way to force them to change? Effective running, which for 2 weeks straight the Bills haven't been able to do in the redzone.

 

-Second, the playcalling and execution.14 runs vs 11 pass. Looking further on that in 14 run plays in the redzone the Bills have averaged 1.28 YPC. That's horrible. If you take away Manual's TD scramble and the other one he had, it drops below 1. So basically the RB's and the OL aren't getting it done.

 

I know it's easy to paint the redzone problems on EJ with a broad brush, but the reality just isn't that simple.

 

Nothing you just wrote addresses the points I've made.

 

A) the OL is NOT going to improve at running the ball in the redzone because at an average of 6'7" tall they aren't capable of playing with the leverage necessary to do so and B) they are however providing EXCELLENT pass protection from one end of the field to the other for EJ.

 

Therefore, like it or not the honus is on EJ to complete his throws from this clean pocket. Which he did for most of the game, with the obvious exception of the first half redzone throws. As for the opposing defense it's irrelevant because in this instance the receivers were OPEN and he threw to the right man.......he just made inaccurate throws. Again......no need for you guys to get your panties in a bunch about this. There weren't many rz opportunities in the Bears game and he didn't play well in the redzone in the Dolphins game. It's TWO games but the team had huge problems converting TD's in the redzone last year so it is "obviously" a concern.

 

He just needs to play better in the redzone. Much of his game has improved to this point so there is no reason to say he can't be better in the redzone. He just needs to execute, they aren't big time throws but they are throws of heightened importance/value and when you are worm burning them it looks like you aren't playing relaxed and with poise.

Edited September 19, 2014 by BADOLBEELZ

[BADOLBILZ]

I don't get it either. I think this is a pet peeve of a lot of posters here over the years.

 

Imagine what EJ could do with a TE like Antonio Gates in his receiving corps. I can't imagine why the FO has been so reluctant to spend a top round draft pick on a top TE...or even try and draft a decent one in later rounds....and yea, Jordan Cameron in the 4th or Julius Thomas in the 4th.

 

Even as lame as Jauron was at least he tried to trade for Tony Gonzalez. Instead the Bills continue to cherish a waiver wire pickup who is a decent receiver at times who is a liability at times in blocking.

 

 

Then there is also the issue of also trying to make do with waiver wire pickups or dumpster diving for OG's. The Bills haven't even attempted to draft a first round an OG since(Ruben Brown in 1995) a 9x pro bowler.

 

It has been the unwillingness to take chances on guys like Julius Thomas or Jimmy Graham that wear on me. These guys were shooting up draft boards because of their potential to be EXTRAORDINARY TE's. I have no problem with passing on overhyped college TE's like Eric Ebron........in order to be a great TE you either have to be a complete basketball freak of nature or a very talented and very instinctive player. But in both cases ball skills have to be exceptional. Very often those top rated college TE's fall somewhere in between this range and their ball skills often aren't heavily weighted enough in the process.

[GG]

Nothing you just wrote addresses the points I've made.

 

A) the OL is NOT going to improve at running the ball in the redzone because at an average of 6'7" tall they aren't capable of playing with the leverage necessary to do so and B) they are however providing EXCELLENT pass protection from one end of the field to the other for EJ.

 

Therefore, like it or not the honus is on EJ to complete his throws from this clean pocket. Which he did for most of the game, with the obvious exception of the first half redzone throws. As for the opposing defense it's irrelevant because in this instance the receivers were OPEN and he threw to the right man.......he just made inaccurate throws. Again......no need for you guys to get your panties in a bunch about this. There weren't many rz opportunities in the Bears game and he didn't play well in the redzone in the Dolphins game. It's TWO games but the team had huge problems converting TD's in the redzone last year so it is "obviously" a concern.

 

He just needs to play better in the redzone. Much of his game has improved to this point so there is no reason to say he can't be better in the redzone. He just needs to execute, they aren't big time throws but they are throws of heightened importance/value and when you are worm burning them it looks like you aren't playing relaxed and with poise.

 

Bah, that's just troll talk

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

i dont think sammy is unilaterally changing his routes based on his ribs. he and ej both have reads and those reads have to be the same. if he is, its a whole different issue and calling his number in the redzone is bordering on reckless if you cant count on him to get to where he needs to.

Marrone referenced that play in one of his interviews. He implied that there is a read on the safety and EJ made the right one and threw it to the right spot and Sammy didn't make the same or right read. He didn't come right out and say it but I'd bet on it. He differentiated from the first one, to Woods, saying we made a bad pass there. EJ surely didn't miss the throw. From behind you can see it pretty clear. One of them made the wrong read. I'm thinking strongly it was Sammy.

[DrDawkinstein]

Marrone referenced that play in one of his interviews. He implied that there is a read on the safety and EJ made the right one and threw it to the right spot and Sammy didn't make the same or right read. He didn't come right out and say it but I'd bet on it. He differentiated from the first one, to Woods, saying we made a bad pass there. EJ surely didn't miss the throw. From behind you can see it pretty clear. One of them made the wrong read. I'm thinking strongly it was Sammy.

 

Ah-ha! So my hunch isn't completely off base. I have to go watch the newer Marrone interviews from this week. Looked obvious to me on that one. The fade I'll put on EJ. But I do believe if Sammy was totally healthy he wouldve gone up and gotten that ball on a post.

Edited September 19, 2014 by DrDareustein

[Wayne Cubed]

Nothing you just wrote addresses the points I've made.

 

A) the OL is NOT going to improve at running the ball in the redzone because at an average of 6'7" tall they aren't capable of playing with the leverage necessary to do so...

 

Wow, that's a pretty definitive statement. Well then, I guess the Bills should just take your advice and give up running in the red zone. I mean why bother trying to improve. Inside the 20, just let EJ throw on every down.

 

Ah-ha! So my hunch isn't completely off base. I have to go watch the newer Marrone interviews from this week. Looked obvious to me on that one. The fade I'll put on EJ. But I do believe if Sammy was totally healthy he wouldve gone up and gotten that ball on a post.

 

IMO, I don't even think you can put the fade on EJ. The throw to Woods, yes. The fade to Williams, the CB is playing zone 5 yards off the ball. In order for a fade pattern to work, they need to be playing press coverage so the WR can make a move at the line and get some separation. That didn't happen. Poor play call.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

Ah-ha! So my hunch isn't completely off base. I have to go watch the newer Marrone interviews from this week. Looked obvious to me on that one. The fade I'll put on EJ. But I do believe if Sammy was totally healthy he wouldve gone up and gotten that ball on a post.

I'm thinking that if he ran the right pattern it was an easy catch and score. On the fade, the DB was all over Williams but a good throw, like the preseason version of that play, it's possible CaveMan could have done his thing. Would have been a tough catch for sure.

[DrDawkinstein]

IMO, I don't even think you can put the fade on EJ. The throw to Woods, yes. The fade to Williams, the CB is playing zone 5 yards off the ball. In order for a fade pattern to work, they need to be playing press coverage so the WR can make a move at the line and get some separation. That didn't happen. Poor play call.

 

My bad, I just got the two throws confused. Yes, I meant the one to Woods. The fade was a "good" throw for the situation, in that he put it where no one from Miami could get it either.