tomato can Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I don't really know a lot about this but came across this today. Is this a good deal or am I missing something? Are we not being told all the details? http://chicago.everyblock.com/improvement/jul31-solar-power-installation-discounts-available-6288065/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 it depends on how the technology is applied. people in Austin are starting to use solar panels, but they way it's done here is that that part of the electricity is used by the household and part is used to support the city power supply. individual homes still have to pay for the electricity - having the panels doesn't give them independence from municipal power bills, it just helps to reduce them while providing extra power for the utility to sell. as a still-emerging technology solar has a lot of potential, but for what most people want when they think of electricity for their homes, it's still not there yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I don't really know a lot about this but came across this today. Is this a good deal or am I missing something? Are we not being told all the details? http://chicago.every...ilable-6288065/ Follow the links down the rabbit hole, and that's not quite the whole story. The state of IL is providing rebates equivalent to $1.25/watt or 25% of cost, capped at $10k. That's about 500 - 800 square feet of panels to get the full rebate, which is a pretty hefty damned system, and you're still out-of-pocket maybe $15k up-front costs, plus whatever the utility company decides to charge you for their infrastructure, in a state that gets only 50-60% sun annually. Good deal if you're already considering getting solar panels, but I wouldn't consider it much of an incentive otherwise. (They have a wind credit/rebate, too, but I didn't work out the numbers for that.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Large Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 it depends on how the technology is applied. people in Austin are starting to use solar panels, but they way it's done here is that that part of the electricity is used by the household and part is used to support the city power supply. individual homes still have to pay for the electricity - having the panels doesn't give them independence from municipal power bills, it just helps to reduce them while providing extra power for the utility to sell. as a still-emerging technology solar has a lot of potential, but for what most people want when they think of electricity for their homes, it's still not there yet. Yes. Less people and using less in aggregate is the real answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomato can Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 Thanks for the replies.... @ DCTom most people in my area are not going to put up $15k for this. They will definitely be taking a pass once they hear that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg F Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 as a still-emerging technology solar has a lot of potential, but for what most people want when they think of electricity for their homes, it's still not there yet. Solar is a mature technology that is well over 30 years old. One of the most significant problems with solar (as well as wind) is that it cannot be scheduled. IOW, it cannot follow demand. Demand generally peaks between 3:00 pm to 8:00 pm while solar peaks at noon. There is no economic way to store the energy produced by solar or wind which dooms them to being nothing but boutique sources of energy for the well healed economically at the expense of the average tax payer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Solar is a mature technology that is well over 30 years old. One of the most significant problems with solar (as well as wind) is that it cannot be scheduled. IOW, it cannot follow demand. Demand generally peaks between 3:00 pm to 8:00 pm while solar peaks at noon. There is no economic way to store the energy produced by solar or wind which dooms them to being nothing but boutique sources of energy for the well healed economically at the expense of the average tax payer. with technology as it is today, I tend to agree. that doesn't mean that it holds no use or won't be developed further in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 with technology as it is today, I tend to agree. that doesn't mean that it holds no use or won't be developed further in the future. Totally agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I had lived near the windmills at the Altamont Pass in CA (the second biggest bunch in the US- hundreds of them), I don't know how many times I saw all the ones visible stationary despite a constant breeze through the 1k elevation pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg F Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 with technology as it is today, I tend to agree. that doesn't mean that it holds no use or won't be developed further in the future. It has always had a use. Where getting grid power to remote locations is costly it clearly is a alternative. For supplying power to the grid, without mass storage, it will never be economical. The intermittent nature of both solar and wind precludes them from ever supplying more than a small fraction of the power due to grid stability issues. Look at history of the development of any technology and you will see that the largest jumps occur early in the development of the technology. Once the technology has matured the improvements become much smaller. Solar has benefited from semi-conductor technology which is approaching its physical limitations. You can't get smaller than an atom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Look at history of the development of any technology and you will see that the largest jumps occur early in the development of the technology. Once the technology has matured the improvements become much smaller. Solar has benefited from semi-conductor technology which is approaching its physical limitations. You can't get smaller than an atom. Ummmm.....batteries? That's a technology that has grown recently and in leaps and bounds AND is something that can benefit solar power. As to most of the "largest jumps" being early in technology, I'd have to give that an unqualified "hogwash" rating. Guns, airplanes, printing, paper, ships/boats, pumps, internal combustion engines are all things that have been wildly improved upon after their initial introduction. No reason solar cannot be also. And that it needs public support? So what, so does oil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 It has always had a use. Where getting grid power to remote locations is costly it clearly is a alternative. For supplying power to the grid, without mass storage, it will never be economical. The intermittent nature of both solar and wind precludes them from ever supplying more than a small fraction of the power due to grid stability issues. Look at history of the development of any technology and you will see that the largest jumps occur early in the development of the technology. Once the technology has matured the improvements become much smaller. Solar has benefited from semi-conductor technology which is approaching its physical limitations. You can't get smaller than an atom. mass storage of electricity does appear to be the only currently viable method of integrating solar energy into the power grid at this point in time, the key point being 'at this time'. I'm not an advocate for pushing solar energy in terms of making it a mandatory portion of the power grid, but I do see the potential for it's use in the future. I disagree whole-heartedly with you with regard to technology only having it's major jumps in development in it's early stages. everywhere you look are things we use everyday that would appear to be magical devices to those that knew the same technology when it was new. I work in telecom, and I can only imagine what AG Bell would say if he could see the mass amounts of raw data moving at light speed through the network. compare your smartphone with eniac or univac, for example. and you absolutely can get smaller than an atom. remember that this thread is based in discussion of solar energy, which is the collection of photons (sub atomic particles emitted from certain atoms when stimulated by electrons, which are also subatomic particles) for the conversion of light energy into thermal energy or electrical energy. Ummmm.....batteries? That's a technology that has grown recently and in leaps and bounds AND is something that can benefit solar power. As to most of the "largest jumps" being early in technology, I'd have to give that an unqualified "hogwash" rating. Guns, airplanes, printing, paper, ships/boats, pumps, internal combustion engines are all things that have been wildly improved upon after their initial introduction. No reason solar cannot be also. And that it needs public support? So what, so does oil I have to admit that I largely agree with all of this, but I still maintain a healthy skepticism regarding the development of practical solar energy any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I have to admit that I largely agree with all of this, but I still maintain a healthy skepticism regarding the development of practical solar energy any time soon. In no small part because technological progress is decidedly non-linear and inherently unpredictable. Even gatorman's typically overly-simplistic examples weren't foregone conclusions of progress - the evolution of airplanes alone, in 100 years, has include four or five major revolutions in engineering, and many, many design, engineering, and technological dead-ends. Improvements in technology are never guaranteed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 But, but, but Obama believes in clean energy. Nuff said. [/leftistidealogues] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryCletus Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Each area is different... There are some areas that will allow you to put power back to the grid for a credit... There are also battery systems that you can charge at your house and run off of. I'm sorry that I didn't scope the link, just swinging by PPP to see if Tom will tell me to go !@#$ myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I'm sorry that I didn't scope the link, just swinging by PPP to see if Tom will tell me to go !@#$ myself... Well, not NOW...you've spoiled the surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Solar is a mature technology that is well over 30 years old. One of the most significant problems with solar (as well as wind) is that it cannot be scheduled. IOW, it cannot follow demand. Demand generally peaks between 3:00 pm to 8:00 pm while solar peaks at noon. There is no economic way to store the energy produced by solar or wind which dooms them to being nothing but boutique sources of energy for the well healed economically at the expense of the average tax payer. My father (mother passed on in 1999) has had a solar panel installed on his house (S.Cheektowaga/W.Seneca) for almost 30 years now... It still works... Only thing it does is help heat the place with a 12 volt booster fan... Pretty hi-tech for its day! Funny... My brother was selling them... LoL... Probably the only sale he got was from his parents! How parents love their children... Now they just beat them outta love. ;-) You can see the thing from satellite on Google Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryCletus Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Well, not NOW...you've spoiled the surprise. Spoiler alert??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 In no small part because technological progress is decidedly non-linear and inherently unpredictable. Even gatorman's typically overly-simplistic examples weren't foregone conclusions of progress - the evolution of airplanes alone, in 100 years, has include four or five major revolutions in engineering, and many, many design, engineering, and technological dead-ends. Improvements in technology are never guaranteed. They're guaranteed if you have some help along the way from "outside" sources. Seriously though, this is an interesting thread, thanks to all who contributed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 They're guaranteed if you have some help along the way from "outside" sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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