John from Riverside Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 Your ridiculous bait and switch of my argument won't work. I'm not suggesting Pegula will cut EJ after he's officially the owner. I'm suggesting that then is paying over a billion dollars for this team and people who spend that kind of money typically want their hand picked people running their investment. I'm suggesting that it's very reasonable to assume that if the Bills don't make the playoffs the they'll have no case to make to Pegula to retain their jobs. I'm suggesting that because of those unproven, but extremely reasonable assumptions that it'd be wiser for the Doug's to start Orton if EJ doesn't get it together. We're 2-1. That's not shabby. We beat the freaking Bears! But here's the thing, did we beat the Bears or did we catch them sleeping? Did they just not know how to play us? The Chargers, a very talented team no doubt, did know how to play us.... Now was the first two weeks really what we are on offense or is this past Sunday? That I do not know. But I am personally sold on EJ not being the guy. Trust me when i say I am not smart enough to play chess with these discussions.......I am just responding to your responses....... Lets discuss who loses their jobs when the final wins and losses for the season are talleyed.........if there is a house cleaning then of course all bets are off for many of the positions on this team. By "your fired" I mean your fired as in demoted not cut. Yes...they beat the bears who beat the niners and the jets last night Yes...they beat the fins who did in fact beat the patriots Then we lose to the team that beat the super bowl champs So we are beating teams that are beating other good teams (or at least were good last year)...its not like we are beating up on the jags here to pad our stats Why do you think they're back on the hot seat after one bad outing? It's because still EJ hasn't shown enough consistency to ward off criticism. And his faults are still nearly identical to last year. He doesn't feel comfortable in the pocket, bails out on plays and has serious accuracy issues. AFAIK, none of the QBs who are served up as examples that they got better over time had so many flaws they needed to fix. EJ may be a three year project in an era where he doesn't get three years to prove himself. To be quite frank....I dont know that they ARE on the hot seat. Most folks who understand football (not the EJ haters because most of them dont) understand that we simply lost to a very good chargers team. And most expect the bills to get back on the horse against the texans......
A Dog Named Kelso Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 At the time of that.....people were clamoring for drafting a QB because Fitz was crapping the bed.....Fitz didnt want to deal with having to fight for the position How do we know this to be the case? He went on from here to become the backup at Tennessee, didn't he? So allow me to say it again......what choice did we totally screw up on that puts us in a better QB position then we are right now. Because the options were limited and we are not drafting high enough to get Cam, or RG III, or Luck......the bills took a QB with a great winning percentage in college with all world measurables who won bowl games at a highly rated college school.......with enough warts that they could get him mid round (lets be real here....if EJ didnt have warts we dont have a shot at him just like we didnt have shot at Cam, or RGIII, or Luck) They took their QB with a lot of potential and measurables and they started to develop him. It was not the WRONG call....it was as right as any other choice they had on the table. Man...this post was better then your last one even They had a plan last year with Kolb, that plan did not surface and they went with plan B. The thing I believe everyone wants to know is why have they not tried to reconstitute plan A as most everyone can see Manuel is a "Project" QB, so follow your project plan. Don't scrap it just because Kolb got hurt. I am not saying EJ is not the guy, but they are most likely not doing him, this team, or the fans any favors by rushing his development, just because of an injury last year. I would think that having Orton play the Kolb role in from the original plan A would be the best plan of attack.
Rob's House Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 Highly likely. Which still puzzles me why Whaley didn't take a flyer on Murray or Mettenberger this year. I'm not sure either, although many argued that doing so would have been the height of stupidity. Apparently practice squad cbs are far more valuable than QB prospects.
IronyAbounds Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 Those thinking Orton is some sort of savior seem to be forget that saviors are rarely found in QBs who never established themselves as quality NFL starters. For better or for worse, either EJ pans out or year 15 without playoffs will be here rather quickly. The Bills missed their chances by passing on Wilson, Foles (with the Bills' receivers this year Foles would a perfect fit, and his lack of mobility is not that much different than EJ's since EJ is clearly afraid to run) and perhaps Cousins, and then screwed up by wasting a first round pick on a project QB in a draft that had nothing but mediocre pro prospects. I am still of the opinion, and it is only my opinion, that EJ looks the part more than he plays the part of a big time QB, and nothing he does stands out as remarkable. It is hard to get excited about a QB whose upper limit is very likely that of a competent game manager and average QB. They can take you to the playoffs, but it just means you have to find a lot more pieces of the puzzle than if you have an above average QB, and the Bills have had trouble finding many pieces to even the simplest of puzzles.
BillsInMaine Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 If Watkins has another game like last week will the Bills turn to Orton? Theres no way they dont do whatever they have to to get the ball in his hands. They paid to much to not feed him.
3rdand12 Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 (edited) You mentioned his physical abilities, but the mental aspect in reading defenses was awful as well. He missed A LOT of reads to WR's that were wide open all game. Also his situational awareness in the endzone with the safety was alarming I could see that from My house. Weddle is very very smart and nasty player . Edited September 23, 2014 by 3rdand12
Bangarang Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 (edited) If Watkins has another game like last week will the Bills turn to Orton? Theres no way they dont do whatever they have to to get the ball in his hands. They paid to much to not feed him. I firmly believe that Marrone already has his mind made up and will go down with the ship if EJ fails. I don't think he has any intentions of benching him. EJ is his golden boy. It's like Marrone refuses to believe that this kid might not be as good as he thinks he is. Apparantly, we're all supposed to believe that EJ's accuracy was fine against the Chargers because according to him, he only had maybe 3 or 4 bad throws. I'm pretty tired of Marrone and EJ peeing on my head and telling me it's raining. Edited September 23, 2014 by Bangarang
3rdand12 Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 (edited) To help EJ and the offense the Bills need a competent TE. Every good QBS in the league has a competent TE. Chandler makes too many blunders, i.e. Penalties, drops, fumbles, misreading defenses At least he runs simple and slow routes though . Chandler is very good at what he does actually.there have been plenty of open players without going through a whole progression. He is indecive with his target. Then it's as though he still isnt sure he made the right choice. If he just starts slinging the ball he might find himself . Its EJ and Marrone not Chandler. But you are correct in the opinion the TE could use a punch in the arm ! So allow me to say it again......what choice did we totally screw up on that puts us in a better QB position then we are right now. Because the options were limited and we are not drafting high enough to get Cam, or RG III, or Luck......the bills took a QB with a great winning percentage in college with all world measurables who won bowl games at a highly rated college school.......with enough warts that they could get him mid round (lets be real here....if EJ didnt have warts we dont have a shot at him just like we didnt have shot at Cam, or RGIII, or Luck) They took their QB with a lot of potential and measurables and they started to develop him. It was not the WRONG call....it was as right as any other choice they had on the table. Man...this post was better then your last one even John i agree on both points.Ej was the what had to be done and the seemingly best option. I dont think one bit that the Whaley Brandon and even Marrone think this QB situation is resolved going forward for the Bills. Best thing they have done to address this was to overpay Orton. That was smart and well played. it been mentioned , sitting EJ might actually be good for him. Tough call but i can see it. Marrone mentioned they took Robey out because they needed to settle him down. I realize the Nickel corner and the QB are not the same level , but that tells you a little about the coaches view of the players ? Edited September 23, 2014 by 3rdand12
Orton's Arm Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Aaron Rodgers says hi. Drew Brees missed the bus, barely, but is also present. > Aaron Rodgers says hi. No, he absolutely does not. The pre-draft reports about Aaron Rodgers generally talked about how polished he was, how NFL-ready he was, and the sophistication of the college offense he ran. As a prospect, he was about as far from Manuel (or any other project QB) as you can get. > Drew Brees missed the bus, barely, but is also present. Prior to the draft, Drew Brees was also considered polished and NFL-ready. However, it's worth mentioning that the year the Chargers took Brees, they had the first overall pick of the draft. They traded that pick away to the Falcons, who used it on Michael Vick. The Chargers took LaDanian Tomlinson with the top-5 pick they acquired from the Falcons. The point of all this being that Brees initially found himself on an absolutely terrible football team. That seems to have slowed his development at the NFL level.
RuntheDamnBall Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 > Aaron Rodgers says hi. No, he absolutely does not. The pre-draft reports about Aaron Rodgers generally talked about how polished he was, how NFL-ready he was, and the sophistication of the college offense he ran. As a prospect, he was about as far from Manuel (or any other project QB) as you can get. And what really happened was that Mike McCarthy helped him rebuild his throwing motion. Too bad that doesn't mesh with the unlinked "pre-draft reports." Kyle Boller ran this same sophisticated college offense, and Akili Smith and Joey Harrington were Tedford-groomed QBs before him. Don't act like there weren't concerns.
Orton's Arm Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) To add to my previous post: below is text from a Scouts Inc. pre-draft scouting report of Aaron Rodgers: ********* He gets set quickly and does a fine job of seeing the entire field. His ability to make progression reads and look off receivers has improved greatly to the point where he is among the elite in this class in those facets. . . . Rodgers should be better prepared for the NFL than most other quarterbacks in this class. . . . In our opinion, Rodgers is the most complete quarterback in the 2005 draft class and he should be the first overall quarterback taken likely somewhere in the top-five. -Scouts Grade 99/100. -Scouts Inc. ********* The below text is from Draft Insiders ********** He has . . . quick decision making to identify defensive coverage and get the ball to the hot receiver. . . . He shows rare field vision that has allowed him to make the proper read throughout the game. . . . His accuracy is in a class by itself. . . . He has exceptional timing and accuracy to the point that he hits receivers in stride consistently. ********** Other scouting reports indicated the following: ******** Is extremely accurate. Played in a pro-style offense in college and has a high football IQ. . . . One interesting comment was that the 49ers would go with Rodgers [instead of Alex Smith] because [Rogers] was closer to being a finished product. . . . ****** Edited September 24, 2014 by Edwards' Arm
K-9 Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Cool, so Tebow is owed 600 or so more attempts! That assumes a prospect has the necessary potential to be allotted those 1,000 attempts in the first place. Tebow comes up short. GO BILLS!!!
FireChan Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 That assumes a prospect has the necessary potential to be allotted those 1,000 attempts in the first place. Tebow comes up short. GO BILLS!!! How do you judge said potential?
K-9 Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 How do you judge said potential? Through a rigorous scouting process for starters. Tebow's problem was that he impressed nobody with his pre-draft workouts and never showed he could throw a long out from the far hash, ON TIME, with or without a hitch. He scared a lot of teams away based on those workouts alone. No doubting his intangibles though. He's an impressive interview by all accounts. Great kid, great leadership. Just had very little arm to go with it. GO BILLS!!!
ALF Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Look what different coaching did for Cousins between last season and this.
RuntheDamnBall Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 To add to my previous post: below is text from a Scouts Inc. pre-draft scouting report of Aaron Rodgers: ..... And yet, he still fell far. Why? He still needed McCarthy to put him through a rigorous program to fix things. Why? The results and the history suggest that he wasn't as fully formed as the scouting reports said. It would not be the first time that scouting reports didn't paint the complete picture. Still, 3 years mostly spent on the sidelines. If he were ready sooner, he would have had the job as a first rounder under contract while Favre continued to get more expensive. But let's take this to another thread that I'm working on.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) Look what different coaching did for Cousins between last season and this. what's that?IIRC from the local DC radio, Cousins has close to 90 QBR rating in the first half of games and close to 60 QBR (maybe lower) rating in the second half of his games. Sample size 4-5 games = Not a Closer But in the second half Sunday, his numbers dropped against a five-man rush. According to ESPN Stats & Information, he completed just 3-of-11 passes vs. that look compared to 9-of-11 in the first half. His first-half passer rating in those games: 94.2. Second-half passer rating: 60.8. http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/11250/under-review-kirk-cousins?ex_cid=espnapi_public Edited September 24, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever
RuntheDamnBall Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 what's that? Cousins close to 90 QBR rating in the first half and close to 60 QBR rating in the second half of his games. Sample size 4-5 games = Not a Closer Also, the book will be out on him. Cousins looks like a Schaub to me. Will get a decent team to the playoffs, sometimes. Won't be elite.
Maury Ballstein Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Look what different coaching did for Cousins between last season and this. Guys 1-1 and beat Jacksonville. We need some of that !
The_Dude Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 We should quit using other QBs as reasons why EJ will or wont succeed. EJ will fail or succeed based on EJ, not based on Drew Brees or John Elway... Right now I see a QB who's big, and fast with a deep arm. But I also see an inaccurate QB who can't read a defense, hurries his throws, and doesn't make enough plays. I don't see any reason to believe that his accuracy will improve. Accuracy is either something you've got or you don't -- and by accuracy I mean the ability to put the ball where you want it. You can be accurate and throw interceptions if you're not reading the field properly...but QB's don't just become accurate by coaching. There's this idea that EJ just needs more time to become accurate. No. If EJ was ever going to be accurate he'd be so by now. EJ was what Buddy Nix saw as the best of a bad situation. Buddy whiffed. There's no need to dedicate our playoffs hopes to failure because 'that's what you're supposed to do' or because 'we all knew EJ was a project from the beginning'.
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