To all of the EJ bashers

[C.Biscuit97]

Completely disagree. High schoolers have QB coaches these days. I think QBs are coming out far more prepared. Dalton, Luck, Wilson, Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Foles, Cousins, these guys are winning early. EJs the exception.

 

Luck is 1-2. Stafford was 3-13 and has made the playoffs once. Newton missed the playoffs his first 2 seasons. Foles wasn't good as a rookie. Cousins had a 58 qb rating last year and is 1-4 as a starter.

[GG]

OK......so here is where I ask what you would have done.

 

- Fitzpatrick not the answer

- Dont throw out some 3rd round drafted QB.....because the chances of hitting on a QB past the first round become even worse

 

Who lines up behind center in your world?

 

I've discussed this a lot, so to recap. The Bills have mismanaged the position seemingly for an eternity, but more recently how they handled the Fitzpatrick contract was horrible.

 

They were too cavalier with Fitz, when it was obvious that he would immediately become the best available back up QB on the market.

the Bills had nobody behind him on the roster, they didn't make the trade for Alex Smith, and it was the weakest draft for QBs in a decade.

Those were all knowns in the spring of 2013. Yet, the Bills in a huffy fit released Fitzpatrick.

Then they forced the EJ pick, who was a know project and signed the last remaining, but bad veteran QB in Kolb.

Then with EJ struggling mightily with uneven play and injuries, and his backups looking mediocre at best, they were content to go into the summer with the same sad crew.

Only to be forced to pay top dollar to cajole Orton out of "retirement"

In the end, between Kolb, Orton, & balance of Fitz contract they are paying out way more than if they kept Fitzpatrick, and having a weaker roster.

And here we are nowhere closer to finding whether EJ is the answer or not

And if he isn't, this team likely forfeited a high draft choice next year, and didn't add another developmental arm to camp.

So if, EJ isn't the answer, they waste 2015 in bringing the new guy along, as opposed to at least having the guy on the roster (like Murray & Mettenberg) to see if he could be the guy. You know, like Andy Reid's plan.

 

So, tell me at which point an average fan wouldn't have made a better decision for the most important position on the team?

[K-9]

I'll take "there isn't one"?

 

The magic number is the number of games it takes for them to find someone better. That person does not exist right now, despite protestations to the contrary and Orton's presence on the roster for all of 4 weeks, without a training camp.

 

This is a good point. Having EJ does not in ANY way preclude us from taking a blue-chip QB prospect if he's there when we select. Going into this year's draft, that player didn't exist and if he did, he wasn't gonna be there at 4, let alone 9.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited September 23, 2014 by K-9

[DC Tom]

I'll speak only for myself...

 

I don't believe EJ is the answer and am ready to give up on the guy.

 

I don't care about winning message board arguments and reminding people I was right.

 

I want playoffs and I think Orton can get us there. That's all.

 

You're not a superior fan if you want to keep EJ as starter and nor are you inferior if you're ready to pull the plug.

 

But to the EJ supporters; how much time is enough? When's that magic number of games that we need to cross before we can say whether EJ has 'it'?

 

First, I'm not an "EJ supporter." I just don't like stupid, reactionary, emotional reactions based on the outrage of the moment.

 

Second...to the middle of next season. It makes as little sense to me to pull him after Sunday's performance as it did to anoint him savior after the Bears performance. He's not flipping burgers - it's a highly skilled professional job, and he's still entry-level. You've got to give people time to grow into a job. Personally, in this sort of situation...I put someone in a situation where they can maximize their skills while minimizing the impact of their mistakes, and give them enough time to demonstrate they can grow. The former is exactly the game-plan the coaches have given him; the latter has to be significantly less than a fragmented rookie season plus three games.

 

Plus...he played merely competently the first two games, but eventually he was going to have a bad game...and the real test would be how he bounced back from that bad game. I'm more concerned with how he performs this coming Sunday than I am with last Sunday. There's a lot that goes in to game-day performance that's out of the QB's hands...but how he bounces back from that is what will mark his quality, not whether or not he overthrew Watkins on a given play.

[SJDK]

The only thing that could prevent 3-1 is too much Watt for them and not enough Spikes for us. EJ will bounce back

[1billsfan]

Unless he improves quickly I see Orton starting sooner rather than later.

 

If the Dougs don't make the playoffs then they're done. Pegula will want to bring in his own guys anyways...the Dougs are literally on the hot seat. There's no time to 'develop' a QB...They HAVE to win now.

 

EJ Manuel has a 6-7 record as a starting QB. If Stevie and Chandler don't drop easy catches at the end of the game against the Falcons last season then he'd have a 7-6 record. I think people have lost perspective regarding Manuel's level of success given his rawness coming into the league. He's been spot-on to the project QB label given to him. There's good, bad and ugly and the story is still being written. Orton's had his day. The Bills current staff's fortune will ride on how the team and Manuel does their last 8 games. If they win and look like a strong team then they'll stay. Yes Manuel had a big time clunker game on Sunday, but the whole team played badly. Manuel isn't ready to throw a team on his back and win the game when the running game and defense are playing uninspired and falling on their face.

 

Hackett needs to step up, show some creativity and not put Manuel in constant 3rd and 8 downs. I'm talking about putting Jackson in the backfield with Spiller flanked out like Sproles and Watkins used like Percy Harvin. With Manuel's running ability combined with Jackson, Spiller and Watkins you've the makings for triple and quadruple options. Play fakes to Jackson, reverses, fake reverses, quick passes to Spiller in space. Can Hackett at least try something like that and do something other than Spiller up the middle for 2 yards? Right now, Manuel needs the whole team playing well to be successful, he clearly still gets freaked out when he realizes the win or loss is on his shoulders. He failed because he couldn't handle that kind of pressure. It doesn't mean he won't get there eventually. I think he will in time, he's just not there yet.

 

The time to bring Orton in is when Manuel stopped being able to perform well when the team is playing well and he's the only one preventing them from winning. I've yet to see this happen to Manuel.

[JPS]

The Bills are not paying Orton 4X EJ's salary because they think he holds the clip board better than Tuel. If the Bills go ofer on this 2 game road trip and EJ looks bad at home early on 10/12, I think you'd see Orton at some point in that game.

 

Marrone is on a 1 year audition for Pegula. So is Whaley. Winning is way more important than his development,imo. So I'm circling 10/12.

[K-9]

First, I'm not an "EJ supporter." I just don't like stupid, reactionary, emotional reactions based on the outrage of the moment.

 

Second...to the middle of next season. It makes as little sense to me to pull him after Sunday's performance as it did to anoint him savior after the Bears performance. He's not flipping burgers - it's a highly skilled professional job, and he's still entry-level. You've got to give people time to grow into a job. Personally, in this sort of situation...I put someone in a situation where they can maximize their skills while minimizing the impact of their mistakes, and give them enough time to demonstrate they can grow. The former is exactly the game-plan the coaches have given him; the latter has to be significantly less than a fragmented rookie season plus three games.

 

Plus...he played merely competently the first two games, but eventually he was going to have a bad game...and the real test would be how he bounced back from that bad game. I'm more concerned with how he performs this coming Sunday than I am with last Sunday. There's a lot that goes in to game-day performance that's out of the QB's hands...but how he bounces back from that is what will mark his quality, not whether or not he overthrew Watkins on a given play.

 

^Erudite.

 

Not that you need your apple polished.

 

And no, that's not a euphemism.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[DC Tom]

I've discussed this a lot, so to recap. The Bills have mismanaged the position seemingly for an eternity, but more recently how they handled the Fitzpatrick contract was horrible.

 

They were too cavalier with Fitz, when it was obvious that he would immediately become the best available back up QB on the market.

the Bills had nobody behind him on the roster, they didn't make the trade for Alex Smith, and it was the weakest draft for QBs in a decade.

Those were all knowns in the spring of 2013. Yet, the Bills in a huffy fit released Fitzpatrick.

Then they forced the EJ pick, who was a know project and signed the last remaining, but bad veteran QB in Kolb.

Then with EJ struggling mightily with uneven play and injuries, and his backups looking mediocre at best, they were content to go into the summer with the same sad crew.

Only to be forced to pay top dollar to cajole Orton out of "retirement"

In the end, between Kolb, Orton, & balance of Fitz contract they are paying out way more than if they kept Fitzpatrick, and having a weaker roster.

And here we are nowhere closer to finding whether EJ is the answer or not

And if he isn't, this team likely forfeited a high draft choice next year, and didn't add another developmental arm to camp.

So if, EJ isn't the answer, they waste 2015 in bringing the new guy along, as opposed to at least having the guy on the roster (like Murray & Mettenberg) to see if he could be the guy. You know, like Andy Reid's plan.

 

So, tell me at which point an average fan wouldn't have made a better decision for the most important position on the team?

 

Well...yeah. The bigger problem with EJ isn't EJ, it's a front office that acts like they're playing Madden.

 

14 years, and this team has shown it has no idea what to do with the QB position? You people think EJ's going to be different? You think Luck would have been different? You think benching EJ now is going to change that? You think the guy they waste their 2016 first-round pick on will be different? (Actually, it might...because Pegula might change the culture. But I'll go with historical precedent for now.)

[ALF]

EJ is still a work in progress , no injuries is moving in the right direction. Next he needs a very solid OL to give him more time then a experienced QB would need. Most of all he needs a better QB coach.

[K-9]

The Bills are not paying Orton 4X EJ's salary because they think he holds the clip board better than Tuel. If the Bills go ofer on this 2 game road trip and EJ looks bad at home early on 10/12, I think you'd see Orton at some point in that game.

 

Marrone is on a 1 year audition for Pegula. So is Whaley. Winning is way more important than his development,imo. So I'm circling 10/12.

 

EJ will earn nearly 9m guaranteed for his rookie deal. Are you saying Orton's getting $36m guaranteed?

 

I also think you're being a bit presumptuous with regards to Whaley and Marrone's "audition" time for Pegula. He's been known to be patient with existing regimes and he just may think that Whaley and Marrone should get their full 3 year auditions.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[JPS]

Regardless of whether it's wise, I don't think you can ignore the change in ownership as a factor on how this team is managed this year. Fair or not. Smart or Stupid. Orton is here to play if EJ doesn't play well enough to win.

 

EJ's salary in 2014 is $1.2M. Orton's is $5M.

 

How did Pegula's patience work out with the Sabres?

[thebandit27]

Regardless of whether it's wise, I don't think you can ignore the change in ownership as a factor on how this team is managed this year. Fair or not. Smart or Stupid. Orton is here to play if EJ doesn't play well enough to win.

 

EJ's salary in 2014 is $1.2M. Orton's is $5M.

 

How did Pegula's patience work out with the Sabres?

 

Just fine actually...they have one of the three most talented group of young prospects in the game (along with STL and CHI), an up-and-coming GM, and 3 first round picks in the next draft--one of the most talented first round crops in years (with enough pieces on the current roster--Stewart, Stafford, Myers--to get more as well).

[K-9]

Regardless of whether it's wise, I don't think you can ignore the change in ownership as a factor on how this team is managed this year. Fair or not. Smart or Stupid. Orton is here to play if EJ doesn't play well enough to win.

 

EJ's salary in 2014 is $1.2M. Orton's is $5M.

 

How did Pegula's patience work out with the Sabres?

 

EJ will make nearly $9m guaranteed with the Bills. Orton won't come close to that.

 

So Pegula's Sabres' experience should inform his decision on the Bills? Really? I really don't see the relevance here.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[FireChan]

 

 

Luck is 1-2. Stafford was 3-13 and has made the playoffs once. Newton missed the playoffs his first 2 seasons. Foles wasn't good as a rookie. Cousins had a 58 qb rating last year and is 1-4 as a starter.

 

Luck is 1-2? Do you people even hear yourselves?

[DC Tom]

^Erudite.

 

Not that you need your apple polished.

 

And no, that's not a euphemism.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Ideally, I'd have Manuel on the bench for three years, watching a veteran play. Failing that, I'd do exactly what the staff is doing this year: put him in a position to execute a conservative game, and minimize the chances of breaking him. I'd have done that last year...but it's nearly impossible to get any sort of consistent performance or development out of someone who's work is consistently interrupted as it was. I also wouldn't be afraid to bench him for a week or two, with the clear explanation to everyone of "You're head space is completely !@#$ed up right now; you need a break to regain your perspective" (and it's shocking how effective that practice can be - I've seen people take sudden leaps in competence after that sort of "forced change of perspective," after they've had down-time to synthesize lessons and suddenly everything clicks.)

 

And then, if he's not making consistent (note: not constant. There's a difference) progress within a reasonable amount of time (a solid season and a half of starting, in this case)...kick him to the curb without hesitation.

 

 

That's what I'd do - hell, that's what I have done, developing talent in my own industry. It actually works very well, maximizing the likelihood of getting a productive worker while minimizing the chances you'll make a blisteringly stupid decision reacting to inevitable mistakes. And that's what's really at work here: people who've clearly never professionally managed someone before who can't accept that talent isn't born fully-formed from the head of Zeus but might actually require development.

[JPS]

Well, I agree on the prospect front and the possibility of a good future. But you can't ignore Pegula's house cleaning and a couple of tragically bad teams. Maybe Pat Lafontaine is available?

[DC Tom]

How did Pegula's patience work out with the Sabres?

 

Very well, actually.

[Captain Hindsight]

A good historical threshold is 1,000 pass attempts.

 

GO BILLS!!!

EJ is currently just under 400 pass attempts.

 

I agree we give him more of a chance.

[CountDorkula]

Regardless of whether it's wise, I don't think you can ignore the change in ownership as a factor on how this team is managed this year. Fair or not. Smart or Stupid. Orton is here to play if EJ doesn't play well enough to win.

 

EJ's salary in 2014 is $1.2M. Orton's is $5M.

 

How did Pegula's patience work out with the Sabres?

 

Actually, If you really want to get into this. The Sabres at first tried to pay expensive vets Leino and Ehrhoff to try to vault the Sabres to success. They failed miserably. Now they are doing the patient thing and building with prospects

 

Apply that to the Bills and the expensive vet is Orton and that prospect is EJ....

 

History has been served.

 

{drops mic, walks off stage}