GG Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 You are sounding like an argumentative person who is nit-picking single words just to point the finger and say the other person is wrong. Isn't that the point of an internet discussion? Yes, semantics are important, especially since that phrase was used to describe EJ's play. But it wasn't, because if it was a perfectly thrown ball, the incompletion would be on Sammy for letting a defender get in the play. But it wasn't a perfectly thrown ball by NFL standards. It was a perfectly thrown ball by our expectations for EJ, because last year that throw ends up taking out the camera man ten yards out of bounds. So, yes, if we're looking for improvement, we got it. It was nearly perfect from that standpoint, because he did something he rarely did last year, give his receiver an opportunity to catch a deep sideline pass. That's tangible progress. But not quite a perfectly thrown ball that's expected from an above average NFL QB. Again, I can name 16 QBs who can make that throw.
Maddog69 Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Thanks Bills fans. The bickering over this is driving me nuts. Arguing whether EJ will be top 10, top 15, top 20. Whether the pass was perfect, good, great, mediocre or crap. Literally arguing over whether a pass should have been thrown 1" in a different position from 40 yards away is just mind numbingly ridiculous. NOBODY knows how EJ will turn out. NOBODY. Let it play out. It's not his fault we have not made the playoffs in 14 years and there's nothing he can do to change that history. Give him a break. If he proves that he sucks, we are screwed and will be another several years away from playoffs. But if he proves to be "good enough", we might have a chance this year. Who knows, he might prove to be pretty good. Then Look out.
Boolay Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 I think there are 3 groups of people on this board: 1.)Those who don't like EJ for one reason or another (whether rational or not). The pick apart every thing EJ does not do perfectly and are more than happy to place all blame for plays with a bad result on EJ. The lump blame from all previous, inferior QBs we've had and pine for a QB like Peyton Mannning who throw for 500yds a game (but they would secretly hate him to because he doesn't also run the ball like Franco Harris). These people will never like EJ, no matter what and they are not worth debating with. I won't name names but we all know who they are. 2.) Some that love EJ, see him as perfect and fight light heck against any insinuation that he has flaws. There aren't as many of these as there were for Trent and JP (THANK GOD WE HAVE NO QB CONTROVERSY RIGHT NOW. I pray that EJ stays healthy because the moment Orton completes one pass, all hell will break loose on TBD). 3.) Those with common sense who can look at EJ as a work in progress and who genuinely support him and want him to succeed but who also acknowledge his faults (as all QBs have). I for one have been impressed with EJ so far in his 12 starts and have hope that he can be a solid NFL QB. I have no clue if he will eventually flame out, become a HOFer or all somewhere in the middle (I suspect it is the latter). But I do believe he's as good as any QB we've had since #12 and I think he gives us a chance to win games. He's shown that he can manage games and protect the ball when needed to protect a lead. He has also shown on 5 occasions that he can take over the offense and lead the team to game winning drives when necessary. I'm pretty excited to see what the future holds for the Bills and EJ. If all you want to do is focus on the negatives and claim that you know he will never by this or that, I feel sorry for you because you are refusing to allow yourself to experience and enjoy a period of Bills football that seems promising. GO BILLS. Your last sentence is by far the most salient point made in this entire thread.
Rob's House Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 25 pages I'm not going to read because, as my avatar clearly indicates, EJ remains a rookie, and discussing the ups/downs of a rookie QB is almost as pointless as talking about political issues, with no one but political hacks, complete with their self-serving agendas. My avatar is still good for 5 more games. Like it or not, the fact is that the upcoming New England @ home game ends EJ's rookie status. He remains a rookie until then, or until he completes 16 NFL games. That's seems like a perfect way to end it as well. Can he play well enough to beat NE at the Ralph? We shall see. That game finally provides us with enough data to begin forming a reasoned, and accurate, opinion about EJ. That's because unlike the hacks of this issue: 1. Those who have been carrying Todd McShay's water for the last 2 years, ever since he said EJ was a "wasted pick", have talked far too much schit to go back on it now, and are probably scared of being exposed: their "football knowledge" largely comes by way of ESPN/WGR/Madden. 2. Those who have been apologizing for everything EJ does, no matter how many time he misses open WRs down the middle for TDs(ahem, last game), who refuse to admit that statistically, EJ having more "upside" to grow into, is less likely than "this is as good as he is going to get". we will finally be working with enough data after the Pats game, to begin to make rational points, and point to patterns, about this matter. The hacks on both sides of this issue are noise. EJ's next 5 games is signal. We know he can play. But, can he win the game, not just manage it? Please try to remember: NO ONE can draw a final conclusion about EJ after merely his first 16 games. But, we can get sense of things. IF we had drawn a final conclusion about Peyton Manning, or, Troy Aikman, or Drew Brees, or a whole lot of other QBs, after their first 16 games? They'd all have been run out of the NFL. Et tu, OC?
John in Jax Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 OK....a few things here - Its all about the way it was said.....calling EJ Manuel "A game manager" would go over a lot better if it was stated "A game manager AT THIS POINT" because what raises the hair on the back of a lot of us is the nothing that EJ is not going to get better as he goes along.....he ALREADY has improved on a lot of things from last year.and given that he hasnt even played a full season the finality of calling a 2nd year QB who hasnt gotten a full 16 games irritates fans who choose to think this team could actually be heading in the right direction. I myself tend to respond to the little "poison pill comments" that are thrown into peoples "opinions"...Im working on it. - 2nd....should it really be so bad that a 2nd year QB be a "game manager?" that term is used like it is a negative thing. Instead of throwing for 300 yards and 3 turnovers in a loss EJ effectively manages the game....puts the ball into the playmakers hands....limits turnovers and negative plays.....and allows the players around him to make the big plays THAT IS HOW THIS TEAM IS BIULT.......we are a ground and pound....control the LOS......play good defense.....beat the other team up team...that is who we are...that is our identity. They dont WANT Payton Manning right now......the team was biult up around EJ Manuel......is this a bad thing? We are in fact 2-0. - Do fans really have blinders on? Is it really your job to show enough negative attitude to bring them down to earth? Would you feel better if fans didnt feel good about beating two quality teams? If you choose to be miserable that is your business but dont make it ours. Good post. I pretty much agree with you, except for these two things: 1) There is no doubt that there are indeed some Bills fans who have blinders on. If you don't see that, then YOU also have blinders on! LOL 2) I'm far....far from "miserable." I am very happy with both my life, and that the Buffalo Bills are 2-0, and I can finally feel proud of being a supporter in front of my friends & coworkers, and not get laughed at. Also, to "billsfan1959": in my post from just a little while ago (where I referenced post #38), I did acknowledge that I used a pejorative in my initial post in this thread, and I even apologized for it (I said "Sorry"). Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing. LOL
FireChan Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Et tu, OC? At least OC is saying rookie from a data analysis standpoint. That's better than most.
billsfan1959 Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Good post. I pretty much agree with you, except for these two things: 1) There is no doubt that there are indeed some Bills fans who have blinders on. If you don't see that, then YOU also have blinders on! LOL 2) I'm far....far from "miserable." I am very happy with both my life, and that the Buffalo Bills are 2-0, and I can finally feel proud of being a supporter in front of my friends & coworkers, and not get laughed at. Also, to "billsfan1959": in my post from just a little while ago (where I referenced post #38), I did acknowledge that I used a pejorative in my initial post in this thread, and I even apologized for it (I said "Sorry"). Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing. LOL What you "apologized for is taking a "pejorative shot at all those EJ fanatics who have blinders on, and who are running high on emotion aftre 2 wins." What you actually said in your initial post was "Anyone who disagrees with the above either has no football knowledge at all, or is just a blind homer." Those are two different things. One is a shot at EJ fanatics and the other is a blanket dismissal of credibility of anyone who disagrees with you. The latter sentiment is what I was commenting on. I was merely pointing out that opinions can be given without making it personal. Speaking of which, my reading comprehension is just fine thank you.
26CornerBlitz Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) Isn't that the point of an internet discussion? Yes, semantics are important, especially since that phrase was used to describe EJ's play. But it wasn't, because if it was a perfectly thrown ball, the incompletion would be on Sammy for letting a defender get in the play. But it wasn't a perfectly thrown ball by NFL standards. It was a perfectly thrown ball by our expectations for EJ, because last year that throw ends up taking out the camera man ten yards out of bounds. So, yes, if we're looking for improvement, we got it. It was nearly perfect from that standpoint, because he did something he rarely did last year, give his receiver an opportunity to catch a deep sideline pass. That's tangible progress. But not quite a perfectly thrown ball that's expected from an above average NFL QB. Again, I can name 16 QBs who can make that throw. EJ threw that pass to Sammy from the Dolphins 45 yard line and hit Sammy perfectly in stride. Sammy didn't have to wait, stretch or deviate from his route to catch the football. It looked to me as if Sammy relaxed for a bit rather than secure the ball with both hands. Had he done so, Grimes wouldn't have had the opportunity to complete a successful PBU. The way Sammy relaxed reminds me of the pass Lee Evans allowed to be stripped from his hands by a Patriots' DB that wound up costing the Ravens a Super Bowl birth. By any objective measure, EJ threw a great ball on that play. Your statement that the only perfect passes are any where a DB has no opportunity to make a play on a ball is just not factual by NFL standards. Often times QBs have to make throws into tight windows and DBs are going to break passes up even when balls are perfectly thrown. Those guys get paid to make plays too. Edited September 17, 2014 by 26CornerBlitz
PromoTheRobot Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 What you "apologized for is taking a "pejorative shot at all those EJ fanatics who have blinders on, and who are running high on emotion aftre 2 wins." What you actually said in your initial post was "Anyone who disagrees with the above either has no football knowledge at all, or is just a blind homer." Those are two different things. One is a shot at EJ fanatics and the other is a blanket dismissal of credibility of anyone who disagrees with you. The latter sentiment is what I was commenting on. I was merely pointing out that opinions can be given without making it personal. Speaking of which, my reading comprehension is just fine thank you. I think the EJ haters do deserve to have their noses rubbed in it a bit since they all predicted EJ was a complete and total bust after preseason. (And that includes local media like Mike Schopp and Tim Graham who told EJ to his face the Bills should draft another QB.) Are the people who like EJ supposed to be the only ones who get crap for being wrong?
QCity Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 I've been skeptical of EJ since his FSU days, and these last 2 games have done little to diminish that skepticism. I'm thrilled we're 2-0 with a home game next, plus EJ does look more fluid and comfortable running the read option and he's not turning the ball over. If we can limit him to 20-25 attempts we probably have a decent chance to win against anyone. But if he has to put the ball up more than 30 times, it's going to get ugly.
26CornerBlitz Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 I've been skeptical of EJ since his FSU days, and these last 2 games have done little to diminish that skepticism. I'm thrilled we're 2-0 with a home game next, plus EJ does look more fluid and comfortable running the read option and he's not turning the ball over. If we can limit him to 20-25 attempts we probably have a decent chance to win against anyone. But if he has to put the ball up more than 30 times, it's going to get ugly. Like it did in week two last season vs. Carolina when he had 27 completions in 39 attempts in a comeback win? Or maybe you mean when he went 20 for 28 with 2 TDs and no ints vs the Jets?
QCity Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Like it did in week two last season vs. Carolina when he had 27 completions in 39 attempts in a comeback win? Or maybe you mean when he went 20 for 28 with 2 TDs and no ints vs the Jets? Did he have more than 30 attempts vs the Jets? No, he did not. Now if you are talking about the 1st Jets game, or the Pit game, or the Tampa game with 4 INTs, then yeah - that's what I meant. EJ throwing the ball is not what we want.
26CornerBlitz Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Did he have more than 30 attempts vs the Jets? No, he did not. Now if you are talking about the 1st Jets game, or the Pit game, or the Tampa game with 4 INTs, then yeah - that's what I meant. EJ throwing the ball is not what we want. We get it, you don't like EJ. Regardless of your sentiments, "we" want EJ to do whatever is necessary to win football games. That will differ with each gameplan and I believe the Bills' coaches and players have faith in him to execute anything that's designed in a particular week.
QCity Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 I believe the Bills' coaches and players have faith in him to execute anything that's designed in a particular week. I also believe the Bills' coaches and players have faith in him to execute anything that's designed in a particular week. I just don't think they will design a gameplan that has him throwing more than 30 times - nor should they with the way the team is built. Of course, I mentioned that in my initial post.
LOVEMESOMEBILLS Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) When EJ gets to throws 21-30 this year his QB rating is 139.1. Why would we believe it will suddenly nosedive at thirty? 7-8 63 yds 87.5 comp.% 1 TD 0 INT 0 Sacks. http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/15803/ej-manuel Edited September 16, 2014 by LOVEMESOMEBILLS
26CornerBlitz Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 I also believe the Bills' coaches and players have faith in him to execute anything that's designed in a particular week. I just don't think they will design a gameplan that has him throwing more than 30 times - nor should they with the way the team is built. Of course, I mentioned that in my initial post. Bet they will later in the season when they face GB and Den.
Kelly the Dog Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Because 26blitz called it a picture perfect pass. Can't have it both ways. It wasn't a perfect pass. It was a decent pass that is expected from an average NFL QB, where he needs the help of his WR to be complete. That's just crazy talk. That was a 50 yard pass to a speedster that hit him dead on the run. Six inches more he probably wouldn't have caught it enough to have it knocked away. It would be different if he altered his route to track the ball in the air but he didn't. He just ran as fast as he could and right at the last moment he reached out his hands and caught it at the tips. Then and only then was Grimes in his dive able to strip it away. It was a perfect pass. It could not have been thrown longer, shorter, inside or outside any better that would have made it less defensible and still catchable on the dead run.
Thurmal34 Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Grimes made a play on Watkins' arm and pulled it down. He never touched the ball.
Kelly the Dog Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 Wrong about what?? lol That teams want TD's when in the red zone? Come on Hemet! Look EJ played well. But this is significant. You don't think Marrone is wondering why his team has only scored 3 TDs this season on offense? You think this is...by design? That's nuts. It's not a cut on EJ only. You need to relax Marone said it himself. The last three times they were playing for the FG. This is a semantic argument really. Of course they want TDs. They are trying to open up holes in the run game to get the ball in the endzone. What Marrone and a lot of fans are saying though, is that they intentionally did not try certain kinds of pass plays in the redzone, because there is a greater chance for a turnover on those plays, because they wanted to assure themselves of the 3, which would make it a two score game. They did that three times. It's not that they hate to score, but they didn't try to score TDs as hard as they did on the first three trips because they thought the conservative approach was the correct approach. And in retrospect it worked.
26CornerBlitz Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 Nice PBU by Grimes. Grimes made a play on Watkins' arm and pulled it down. He never touched the ball.
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