RuntheDamnBall Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Then it's not a perfectly thrown ball, especially when the WR has one step on the DB. That's the whole point of a perfectly thrown ball - you take the defenders' positioning away with the placement of the pass. There are only two possibilities. Either the receiver catches it or he drops it. Otherwise it's not a perfectly thrown ball, and then it's a battle between the WR & the DB. Disagree. Unless you think the answer is never to target a guy who is well-covered. That DB made a great last-second play, the only play possible to keep that from being a TD. I'm going to argue that on that play there can't be a more perfectly thrown ball, because then you are overthrowing the guy or leaving him hanging out to dry.
John from Riverside Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Well, as I've already stated, my initial post in this thread was just me agreeing with two other posters about EJ's shortcomings (See Post #38). PLEASE GO BACK AND READ POST #38.....I defy anyone to say that "Stopthepain" is off the mark with his calculated assessment of EJ. The fact is that I agreed with "Stopthepain's" post, where he stated that EJ is "nothing more than a game manager." In this thread, we've seen many of EJ's supporters feeling just fine with that notion. Sorry, but I don't agree with, or want that role for a Bills QB. I'd like a real QB. I also agreed with "sullim4" who stated that the Bills' red zone production was a big concern. I pointed out that of course, the QB (EJ) has a very prominent role in red zone operations. Any yes, I did take a pejorative shot at all those EJ fanatics who have blinders on, and who are running high on emotion because of the 2 Wins. Sorry about that (even though it's true...LOL). OK....a few things here - Its all about the way it was said.....calling EJ Manuel "A game manager" would go over a lot better if it was stated "A game manager AT THIS POINT" because what raises the hair on the back of a lot of us is the nothing that EJ is not going to get better as he goes along.....he ALREADY has improved on a lot of things from last year.and given that he hasnt even played a full season the finality of calling a 2nd year QB who hasnt gotten a full 16 games irritates fans who choose to think this team could actually be heading in the right direction. I myself tend to respond to the little "poison pill comments" that are thrown into peoples "opinions"...Im working on it. - 2nd....should it really be so bad that a 2nd year QB be a "game manager?" that term is used like it is a negative thing. Instead of throwing for 300 yards and 3 turnovers in a loss EJ effectively manages the game....puts the ball into the playmakers hands....limits turnovers and negative plays.....and allows the players around him to make the big plays THAT IS HOW THIS TEAM IS BIULT.......we are a ground and pound....control the LOS......play good defense.....beat the other team up team...that is who we are...that is our identity. They dont WANT Payton Manning right now......the team was biult up around EJ Manuel......is this a bad thing? We are in fact 2-0. - Do fans really have blinders on? Is it really your job to show enough negative attitude to bring them down to earth? Would you feel better if fans didnt feel good about beating two quality teams? If you choose to be miserable that is your business but dont make it ours.
GG Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Disagree. Unless you think the answer is never to target a guy who is well-covered. That DB made a great last-second play, the only play possible to keep that from being a TD. I'm going to argue that on that play there can't be a more perfectly thrown ball, because then you are overthrowing the guy or leaving him hanging out to dry. No, a guy could be well covered but the perfectly thrown ball will go to a spot where only the WR will have a chance of catching it and DB's only option would be to hit the receiver and cause an incompletion. If the DB can be in a position to make a play on the ball, then it's not a perfectly thrown ball (to which I was responding). In the play in question, Sammy has one step on Grimes, but has to catch the ball low. If that ball is placed a few inches further, Grimes cannot make the great play. That's the difference between a perfect pass and a decent pass.
John Adams Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Pretty funny Mr Adams. My statement was EJ is not well thought of by the majority of football fans outside of Buffalo. I then pointed at that he is undrafted in a majority of fantasy leagues. I guess I need to actually spell it out for you. If people think he could put up the stats to help them they would take him. If your take is that is how I judge him than that is a reading comprehension issue on your part and that is sad. I would love to see EJ become the number one QB in the history of the Bills but based upon what I see (Not Fantasy Stat) I do not see it. When I try and articulate it with other Bills fans there are some that don't want to hear it and respond with bullying tactics and the tired "You are a troll" when your opinion differs from theirs. Do you realize that your fantasy football team has no offensive line? Among the things I don't care about are EJ's stats last game. He was in game management mode (no turnovers, no chances) for the entire 4th quarter and barely saw the ball in the 3rd because the fish had 2 drives and between was the Spiller runback. His stats mean nothing from that game--he played the game to win and won. I want you to keep arguing about fantasy football and how it's relevant to support your point. Do you know that the Bills D/ST went undrafted in most leagues? They must suck too. And Sammy Watkins? Undrafted. Sucks. Fred Jackson was drafted but benched in 80% of leagues. Sucks. In about half of leagues, Anotnio Gates went undrafted. 3 TDs last weekend of pure suckitude. Need more? I do have more.
John from Riverside Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 No, a guy could be well covered but the perfectly thrown ball will go to a spot where only the WR will have a chance of catching it and DB's only option would be to hit the receiver and cause an incompletion. If the DB can be in a position to make a play on the ball, then it's not a perfectly thrown ball (to which I was responding). In the play in question, Sammy has one step on Grimes, but has to catch the ball low. If that ball is placed a few inches further, Grimes cannot make the great play. That's the difference between a perfect pass and a decent pass. GG....if you think that bomb was a "decent pass" then there really is no point of debating it...... That was a great pass
John Adams Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 In the play in question, Sammy has one step on Grimes, but has to catch the ball low. If that ball is placed a few inches further, Grimes cannot make the great play. That's the difference between a perfect pass and a decent pass. No--the pass may not have been perfect, but it was excellent. Decent implies average and most passes of that length into that tight coverage would have been a lot worse than EJ's.
GG Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 GG....if you think that bomb was a "decent pass" then there really is no point of debating it...... That was a great pass Whatever you want to call it, it wasn't a picture perfect pass and it fell incomplete. Yes it was a great play by Grimes. But for the 100th time, if it was a picture perfect pass, Grimes would be in no position to break it up.
Dorkington Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 No, a guy could be well covered but the perfectly thrown ball will go to a spot where only the WR will have a chance of catching it and DB's only option would be to hit the receiver and cause an incompletion. If the DB can be in a position to make a play on the ball, then it's not a perfectly thrown ball (to which I was responding). In the play in question, Sammy has one step on Grimes, but has to catch the ball low. If that ball is placed a few inches further, Grimes cannot make the great play. That's the difference between a perfect pass and a decent pass. Gonna just agree to disagree. There's no arguing with such an extreme stance.
John from Riverside Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 It just really trips me out how high the bar is for this and for that......like UNREALISTICALLY high...... We are fans of a team that has not been in the playoffs for 14 years.....and we are argueing over why passes are not "perfect" I would think at this point fans would be happy with very good play that actually got us in the playoffs......
billsfan1959 Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Well, as I've already stated, my initial post in this thread was just me agreeing with two other posters about EJ's shortcomings (See Post #38). PLEASE GO BACK AND READ POST #38.....I defy anyone to say that "Stopthepain" is off the mark with his calculated assessment of EJ. The fact is that I agreed with "Stopthepain's" post, where he stated that EJ is "nothing more than a game manager." In this thread, we've seen many of EJ's supporters feeling just fine with that notion. Sorry, but I don't agree with, or want that role for a Bills QB. I'd like a real QB. I also agreed with "sullim4" who stated that the Bills' red zone production was a big concern. I pointed out that of course, the QB (EJ) has a very prominent role in red zone operations. Any yes, I did take a pejorative shot at all those EJ fanatics who have blinders on, and who are running high on emotion because of the 2 Wins. Sorry about that (even though it's true...LOL). No, your initial post was agreeing with two other posters and saying (in reference to Stopthepain's analysis that EJ is a bottom-half of the NFL QB and nothing more than a game manager), "Anyone who disagrees with the above either has no football knowledge at all, or is just a blind homer." You are welcome to any opinion you want. It is the complete dismissal of the credibility of anyone who might disagree with you that is bothersome. There is no need for that.
GG Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 It just really trips me out how high the bar is for this and for that......like UNREALISTICALLY high...... We are fans of a team that has not been in the playoffs for 14 years.....and we are argueing over why passes are not "perfect" I would think at this point fans would be happy with very good play that actually got us in the playoffs...... Because 26blitz called it a picture perfect pass. Can't have it both ways. It wasn't a perfect pass. It was a decent pass that is expected from an average NFL QB, where he needs the help of his WR to be complete.
John from Riverside Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Because 26blitz called it a picture perfect pass. Can't have it both ways. It wasn't a perfect pass. It was a decent pass that is expected from an average NFL QB, where he needs the help of his WR to be complete. I guarantee you that not every QB in the NFL makes that throw
GG Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 I guarantee you that not every QB in the NFL makes that throw I guarantee you 16 NFL QBs make that throw.
billsfan1959 Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Because 26blitz called it a picture perfect pass. Can't have it both ways. It wasn't a perfect pass. It was a decent pass that is expected from an average NFL QB, where he needs the help of his WR to be complete. IMO, that pass could not have been thrown much better, if at all. I do not think you would "expect" that throw from any "average" QB.
GG Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 IMO, that pass could not have been thrown much better, if at all. I do not think you would "expect" that throw from any "average" QB. That exact throw is what's expected from an average QB. A better throw is expected from an above average QB.
Dorkington Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Wow... Just gonna not come back to this thread...
Maddog69 Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 I think there are 3 groups of people on this board: 1.)Those who don't like EJ for one reason or another (whether rational or not). The pick apart every thing EJ does not do perfectly and are more than happy to place all blame for plays with a bad result on EJ. The lump blame from all previous, inferior QBs we've had and pine for a QB like Peyton Mannning who throw for 500yds a game (but they would secretly hate him to because he doesn't also run the ball like Franco Harris). These people will never like EJ, no matter what and they are not worth debating with. I won't name names but we all know who they are. 2.) Some that love EJ, see him as perfect and fight light heck against any insinuation that he has flaws. There aren't as many of these as there were for Trent and JP (THANK GOD WE HAVE NO QB CONTROVERSY RIGHT NOW. I pray that EJ stays healthy because the moment Orton completes one pass, all hell will break loose on TBD). 3.) Those with common sense who can look at EJ as a work in progress and who genuinely support him and want him to succeed but who also acknowledge his faults (as all QBs have). I for one have been impressed with EJ so far in his 12 starts and have hope that he can be a solid NFL QB. I have no clue if he will eventually flame out, become a HOFer or all somewhere in the middle (I suspect it is the latter). But I do believe he's as good as any QB we've had since #12 and I think he gives us a chance to win games. He's shown that he can manage games and protect the ball when needed to protect a lead. He has also shown on 5 occasions that he can take over the offense and lead the team to game winning drives when necessary. I'm pretty excited to see what the future holds for the Bills and EJ. If all you want to do is focus on the negatives and claim that you know he will never by this or that, I feel sorry for you because you are refusing to allow yourself to experience and enjoy a period of Bills football that seems promising. GO BILLS.
Fan in Chicago Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 Because 26blitz called it a picture perfect pass. Can't have it both ways. It wasn't a perfect pass. It was a decent pass that is expected from an average NFL QB, where he needs the help of his WR to be complete. Decent pass by an average NFL QB ? I disagree completely. It was an extremely well thrown pass and took a terrific PBU from Grimes to have it fall incomplete. Frankly, I am not sure what over-arching argument you are really making. Would it make you happy for the other person to say it was not a 'perfect' pass ? If so, then you are truly arguing words and semantics than the point of the discussion. You are sounding like an argumentative person who is nit-picking single words just to point the finger and say the other person is wrong.
OCinBuffalo Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) 25 pages I'm not going to read because, as my avatar clearly indicates, EJ remains a rookie, and discussing the ups/downs of a rookie QB is almost as pointless as talking about political issues, with no one but political hacks, complete with their self-serving agendas. My avatar is still good for 5 more games. Like it or not, the fact is that the upcoming New England @ home game ends EJ's rookie status. He remains a rookie until then, or until he completes 16 NFL games. That's seems like a perfect way to end it as well. Can he play well enough to beat NE at the Ralph? We shall see. That game finally provides us with enough data to begin forming a reasoned, and accurate, opinion about EJ. That's because unlike the hacks of this issue: 1. Those who have been carrying Todd McShay's water for the last 2 years, ever since he said EJ was a "wasted pick", have talked far too much schit to go back on it now, and are probably scared of being exposed: their "football knowledge" largely comes by way of ESPN/WGR/Madden. 2. Those who have been apologizing for everything EJ does, no matter how many time he misses open WRs down the middle for TDs(ahem, last game), who refuse to admit that statistically, EJ having more "upside" to grow into, is less likely than "this is as good as he is going to get". we will finally be working with enough data after the Pats game, to begin to make rational points, and point to patterns, about this matter. The hacks on both sides of this issue are noise. EJ's next 5 games is signal. We know he can play. But, can he win the game, not just manage it? Please try to remember: NO ONE can draw a final conclusion about EJ after merely his first 16 games. But, we can get sense of things. IF we had drawn a final conclusion about Peyton Manning, or, Troy Aikman, or Drew Brees, or a whole lot of other QBs, after their first 16 games? They'd all have been run out of the NFL. Edited September 16, 2014 by OCinBuffalo
billsfan1959 Posted September 16, 2014 Posted September 16, 2014 I think there are 3 groups of people on this board: 1.)Those who don't like EJ for one reason or another (whether rational or not). The pick apart every thing EJ does not do perfectly and are more than happy to place all blame for plays with a bad result on EJ. The lump blame from all previous, inferior QBs we've had and pine for a QB like Peyton Mannning who throw for 500yds a game (but they would secretly hate him to because he doesn't also run the ball like Franco Harris). These people will never like EJ, no matter what and they are not worth debating with. I won't name names but we all know who they are. 2.) Some that love EJ, see him as perfect and fight light heck against any insinuation that he has flaws. There aren't as many of these as there were for Trent and JP (THANK GOD WE HAVE NO QB CONTROVERSY RIGHT NOW. I pray that EJ stays healthy because the moment Orton completes one pass, all hell will break loose on TBD). 3.) Those with common sense who can look at EJ as a work in progress and who genuinely support him and want him to succeed but who also acknowledge his faults (as all QBs have). I for one have been impressed with EJ so far in his 12 starts and have hope that he can be a solid NFL QB. I have no clue if he will eventually flame out, become a HOFer or all somewhere in the middle (I suspect it is the latter). But I do believe he's as good as any QB we've had since #12 and I think he gives us a chance to win games. He's shown that he can manage games and protect the ball when needed to protect a lead. He has also shown on 5 occasions that he can take over the offense and lead the team to game winning drives when necessary. I'm pretty excited to see what the future holds for the Bills and EJ. If all you want to do is focus on the negatives and claim that you know he will never by this or that, I feel sorry for you because you are refusing to allow yourself to experience and enjoy a period of Bills football that seems promising. GO BILLS. 25 pages I'm not going to read because, as my avatar clearly indicates, EJ remains a rookie, and discussing the ups/downs of a rookie QB is almost as pointless as talking about political issues, with no one but political hacks, complete with their self-serving agendas. My avatar is still good for 5 more games. Like it or not, the fact is that the upcoming New England @ home game ends EJ's rookie status. He remains a rookie until then, or until he completes 16 NFL games. That's seems like a perfect way to end it as well. Can he play well enough to beat NE at the Ralph? We shall see. That game finally provides us with enough data to begin forming a reasoned, and accurate, opinion about EJ. That's because unlike the hacks of this issue: 1. Those who have been carrying Todd McShay's water for the last 2 years, ever since he said EJ was a "wasted pick", have talked far too much schit to go back on it now, and are probably scared of being exposed: their "football knowledge" largely comes by way of ESPN/WGR/Madden. 2. Those who have been apologizing for everything EJ does, no matter how many time he misses open WRs down the middle for TDs(ahem, last game), who refuse to admit that statistically, EJ having more "upside" to grow into, is less likely than "this is as good as he is going to get". we will finally be working with enough data after the Pats game, to begin to make rational points, and point to patterns, about this matter. The hacks on both sides of this issue are noise. EJ's next 5 games is signal. We know he can play. But, can he win the game, not just manage it? Please try to remember: NO ONE can draw a final conclusion about EJ after merely his first 16 games. But, we can get sense of things. IF we had drawn a final conclusion about Peyton Manning, or, Troy Aikman, or Drew Brees, or a whole lot of other QBs, after their first 16 games? They'd all have been run out of the NFL. Both of these are very reasonable well thought out posts.
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