The Pegulas FIRST move as owners has already taken place

[Billy Zabka]

PromoTheRobot, it's time to get your circuits checked out. After 22,000 posts of constantly defending OBD personnel and the moves they make despite being proven wrong going on 15 straight years, I think you are starting to malfunction and type gibberish. To paraphrase Steve Smith...Oil up son, oil up.

[PromoTheRobot]

PromoTheRobot, it's time to get your circuits checked out. After 22,000 posts of constantly defending OBD personnel and the moves they make despite being proven wrong going on 15 straight years, I think you are starting to malfunction and type gibberish. To paraphrase Steve Smith...Oil up son, oil up.

 

That hurts coming from someone with 15 posts.

Edited September 11, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[jester43]

<sigh> Russ is already solely on the business side. This has been discussed over and over again. Russ isn't making football decisions.

 

oh cmon....then what is he doing on the sidelines at camp mediating an argument between the coach and GM. what is he doing practically shoving whaley out of the way for camera time n the bills' draft day vid? why is on the phone wheeling and dealing with the Browns for that matter? If i was Whaley i'd be sick to death of this guy.

 

i don't believe for a minute Brandon has stepped back from football. and i think he gets too much credit for the "amazing" feat of generating a profit for the Bills in the NFL....an industry with shared revenue and a license to print money.

 

Ths weird story about "Executives" throwing Marrone under the bus last week the last straw for me. I hope the Pegulas take Russ Brandon out with the trash. Every time he's gotten near football it's been a mess (2008 draft) and he doesn't seem to have the good sense to stay away.

 

It's quite obvious to me that Russ Brandon meddles on the football side of things. I don't know how many CEO's of other NFL clubs "that just stick to the business side" are talking draft strategy, negotiating trades, calling other NFL GM's to see who they might be taking, and even appearing in Kevin Costner movies making trades.

 

I can't believe how many of you are clamoring for Brandon to stay. Since being promoted to a high level in 2006 the Bills have a .382 winning percentage. He has been here for the entire 14 year and counting playoff drought. He was the architect of giving away home games for cash which put the team at a competitive disadvantage.

 

With profit no longer being the #1 goal of the Buffalo Bills organization and the future of the Bills in Buffalo secure, it is time for Russ to hit the road with Jeffrey Littman.

Amen.

 

 

“To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.” George Orwell

[NoSaint]

There is a difference between overseeing things as "acting owner" and physically getting on the horn with other GM's to negotiate trades and talk draft scenarios. Combine that with dictating a "be bold" draft strategy where your GM trades two potential to 10 picks and a 4th to move up 5 spots for a WR and I would call that meddling.

 

Weird that a team president would empower his GM to make bold moves that the GM believes in as opposed to drafting scared.

[GunnerBill]

But, like I said, let' focus on what we do agree on:

 

So, since January 2013:

 

CONS:

1- Renewing the Toronto series (it was an unmitigated failure and should never have been renewed, the idea of "selling" a home game made the team less competitive)

2- The Watkins trade, he should have NEVER signed off or whatever involvement he had, he should have said NO. Giving up a 2015 1st and 4th and our 2014 1st is too steep a price for a WR. Time will tell for sure, but it's been universally panned by national media (please no f*** the national media posts, I know they aren't always right either)

3- The lack of a backup QB plan, Brandon should have stepped in and told Whaley that given EJ's injury history and inconsistent play, they should have went to camp with a better backup plan (I've posted several times about signing Vick, S Hill, McCown, trading for a younger vet etc.) Again, in the end, it might have worked out with Orton, but not the way the team should be operating with the most important position in the game.

4- Only a rumor, but not supporting Marrone in regards to the training staff, if the HC wants to make changes to the training staff, he should have the right to do that and be empowered to make that change

5- More minor things (so, please no posts highlighted these, but they do signal a lack of organizational discipline), i.e. Jills lawsuit, Marrone's health leak, other leaks on FO infighting --- again, these are MINOR but could be signal of something

 

I generally think this is a sensible list. I'm afraid I can't agree that 3 was his responsibility. Signing off on 2 yes (I don't think we can yet determine whether that was good move or a bad one quite frankly) but 3 is directly in the remit of the GM. Russ does not and should not stick his nose in at that level - ie. telling his GM "this position needs addressing" it is not his job.

 

But, ultimately it will be the success of Bradon's hires that decides if he sinks or swims.

 

On points 1, 4 and 5 I make you right. 2 needs waiting on and 3 I think you are wrong.

[Lurker]

Combine that with dictating a "be bold" draft strategy where your GM trades two potential to 10 picks and a 4th to move up 5 spots for a WR and I would call that meddling.

You're joking, right? A CEO who tells his GM to "be bold" (i.e., do what you think will help the team win) is "meddling?"

 

A five letter word that starts with "T" comes to mind...

[thebandit27]

 

“To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.” George Orwell

 

Sort of like, if 99.9% of the breathing world understands something to be true (i.e. Russ Brandon is not making football decisions and leaves that to Doug Whaley), it's a struggle to recognize it?

 

Guess that quote does apply then.

[eball]

It's quite obvious to me that Russ Brandon meddles on the football side of things. I don't know how many CEO's of other NFL clubs "that just stick to the business side" are talking draft strategy, negotiating trades, calling other NFL GM's to see who they might be taking, and even appearing in Kevin Costner movies making trades.

 

I can't believe how many of you are clamoring for Brandon to stay. Since being promoted to a high level in 2006 the Bills have a .382 winning percentage. He has been here for the entire 14 year and counting playoff drought. He was the architect of giving away home games for cash which put the team at a competitive disadvantage.

 

With profit no longer being the #1 goal of the Buffalo Bills organization and the future of the Bills in Buffalo secure, it is time for Russ to hit the road with Jeffrey Littman.

 

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[thebandit27]

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

 

[GA BILLS FAN]

The President of the Bills SHOULD be INVOLVED in football decisions ! Why is that so hard to fathom ? I'm not talking about being a scout or deciding on the draft board, but he damn well better be setting objectives and strategy, allocating resources and helping to create an operating plan for the team. If he isn't, he's not doing his job. To be clear, you can empower your employees to do their jobs, but you NEVER as a good executive disengage from them. Good executives set clear objectives, help set priorities, provide resources, remove barriers and hold people accountable.

 

I don't think there should be any debate on whether or not he's involved, he IS involved and should be involved.

 

To me, the debate centers around whether or not Brandon was involved in the football operations (and therefore responsible and accountable) for the time period PRIOR to January 2013.

 

Does anyone disagree ?

 

[thebandit27]

The President of the Bills SHOULD be INVOLVED in football decisions ! Why is that so hard to fathom ? I'm not talking about being a scout or deciding on the draft board, but he damn well better be setting objectives and strategy, allocating resources and helping to create an operating plan for the team. If he isn't, he's not doing his job. To be clear, you can empower your employees to do their jobs, but you NEVER as a good executive disengage from them. Good executives set clear objectives, help set priorities, provide resources, remove barriers and hold people accountable.

 

I don't think there should be any debate on whether or not he's involved, he IS involved and should be involved.

 

To me, the debate centers around whether or not Brandon was involved in the football operations (and therefore responsible and accountable) for the time period PRIOR to January 2013.

 

Does anyone disagree ?

 

It seems that the debate (not with you) shifted to whether "involved" means "meddling".

 

My opinion is that Brandon's football involvement should be limited to the items you mentioned: budget, resources, planning, etc. As I understand it from those in the know, that's exactly what he does now, though he is eager and willing to help with anything that Whaley/Marrone ask him to (hence his working the phones to settle the draft day trade).

 

As for the period prior to January 2013, the best answer I can give you is that it's complicated. Although Russ had some authority, he had nothing close to the autonomy he has now. The closest he came to that was the period between 2008-2010 when he was "GM", but every personnel decision basically came down to him going to Modrak and Guy and saying "what should we do?".

[Kelly the Dog]

The President of the Bills SHOULD be INVOLVED in football decisions ! Why is that so hard to fathom ? I'm not talking about being a scout or deciding on the draft board, but he damn well better be setting objectives and strategy, allocating resources and helping to create an operating plan for the team. If he isn't, he's not doing his job. To be clear, you can empower your employees to do their jobs, but you NEVER as a good executive disengage from them. Good executives set clear objectives, help set priorities, provide resources, remove barriers and hold people accountable.

 

I don't think there should be any debate on whether or not he's involved, he IS involved and should be involved.

 

To me, the debate centers around whether or not Brandon was involved in the football operations (and therefore responsible and accountable) for the time period PRIOR to January 2013.

 

Does anyone disagree ?

I don't want to speak for anyone else but I will anyway. You seem to be changing your criterion or question, when everyone on the other side of this argument is much more simple and consistent. What people mean about "not making football decisions" is simply this:

 

Russ Brandon doesn't ever say "draft this guy not that guy."

Russ Brandon doesn't ever tell Whaley don't make that trade.

When Doug Whaley asks him what he thinks about a player, or trade, or draft pick, Russ gives his opinion and Whaley takes that for exactly what it is, an opinion, and then makes the choice completely on his own with his staff of coaches and scouts.

 

That's it. He never ever makes final football decisions. Period.

 

It's very simple. He is involved in everything. He doesn't have the final say nor the culpability, except if you want to say he hired Whaley so he is responsible for all of the decisions that Whaley makes.

[BigBuff423]

 

Yeah me too. Whaley is solid, even with the Kujo whiff. 2013 draft and offseason pickups very impressive.

 

I disagree that Whaley's job is tied to EJ's success. Nobody is right all the time, and EJ still may be enough to get us there.

 

I agree also overall with your statements, except one notable exception: I think it's too early to determine Kujo as a "whiff", you may be right but it is entirely too soon to make that assessment, IMHO...partly, because he's a Rookie, partly because he was late coming to football and by all accounts was still learning the position at Alabama despite starting and partly because, I think he will find a way onto this Offensive line either next year or the year after as a starter, be it Tackle or Guard...

[FLFan]

I don't want to speak for anyone else but I will anyway. You seem to be changing your criterion or question, when everyone on the other side of this argument is much more simple and consistent. What people mean about "not making football decisions" is simply this:

 

Russ Brandon doesn't ever say "draft this guy not that guy."

Russ Brandon doesn't ever tell Whaley don't make that trade.

When Doug Whaley asks him what he thinks about a player, or trade, or draft pick, Russ gives his opinion and Whaley takes that for exactly what it is, an opinion, and then makes the choice completely on his own with his staff of coaches and scouts.

 

That's it. He never ever makes final football decisions. Period.

 

It's very simple. He is involved in everything. He doesn't have the final say nor the culpability, except if you want to say he hired Whaley so he is responsible for all of the decisions that Whaley makes.

This is the best description I have seen in this thread yet. I am not sure why it seems to be difficult for people to understand this business vs. football thing. This just in - the Bills are in the Football Business. As such, all decisions are "football related" and potentially impact both the profitability and competitiveness of the team on the field. Second point, anyone with experience managing in this size of business would know that while senior managers may be empowered to make decisions and do their jobs, it would be very unusual for any senior manager (i.e. Whaley in this case) to make any significant, impactful decision without at least running it by the boss. Third, in empowering his employees, the boss would set limitations in budgets and authorities, and goals and strategies for the organization both near and short term. Again, all of this is football related. I can't see a scenario in the past two years since Brandon has had this role that he would not have had at least some input or impact on any meaningful decision. It does not mean he is "meddling". Frankly, he has done a much better job at this in my opinion than either Ralph or his only previous hire with this much authority - Terrible Tom.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

This is the best description I have seen in this thread yet. I am not sure why it seems to be difficult for people to understand this business vs. football thing. This just in - the Bills are in the Football Business. As such, all decisions are "football related" and potentially impact both the profitability and competitiveness of the team on the field. Second point, anyone with experience managing in this size of business would know that while senior managers may be empowered to make decisions and do their jobs, it would be very unusual for any senior manager (i.e. Whaley in this case) to make any significant, impactful decision without at least running it by the boss. Third, in empowering his employees, the boss would set limitations in budgets and authorities, and goals and strategies for the organization both near and short term. Again, all of this is football related. I can't see a scenario in the past two years since Brandon has had this role that he would not have had at least some input or impact on any meaningful decision. It does not mean he is "meddling". Frankly, he has done a much better job at this in my opinion than either Ralph or his only previous hire with this much authority - Terrible Tom.

Pretty much my exact feelings. The thing that people are having a hard time grasping (except TXBILLSFAN, he gets it but disagrees) RB did not have the ultimate say before 2013. Ultimately he had to run things budget related by Littman. He had a say but not the final say. In the last year and a half he has had the final say. Russ empowers his people and so far I am happy with the direction since the start of 2013 (despite my hesitancy on EJ). Time will tell if it works or not but to talk about 10 years ago is pretty meaningless. All that is going to matter to Pegula and company is what is happening now. People will be judged on present merits -not past. Edited September 11, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[Billy Zabka]

Russ Brandon's only advice if any to Whaley before the draft should have been to make the team better. When your boss that hires you and can fire you tells you to make "bold moves" at the draft and you proceed to use potentially two top ten picks and a 4th to move up 5 spots for a WR that's interesting.

 

When at the press conference following Whaley says that this all goes to Russ Brandon and that there "wasn't really that much higher of a difference" between Watkins and the next WR's that catches my attention.

 

When Russ Brandon shows up at the press conference that is usually for the GM and scouting staff to talk draft and is constantly pulling the microphone away from Whaley to interject that shows me something.

 

When it comes out that Russ "who only sticks to the business side" is calling GM's to talk football and is negotiating trades with the Eagles I start to wonder.

 

When Tim Graham reports that Whaley is upset that he doesn't have full control over football moves such as free agency, personnel moves, and the training staff despite Brandon saying he has full and total control, I go hmmm.

 

Those are some of the reasons I think Russ meddles on the football side of things, if you guys need a smoking gun of Whaley coming right out and saying this it will never happen. You can get rehired in this league for many reasons but publically selling out your boss in the NFL is a death sentence. So believe what you want. One thing is for certain though and that is the Bills have a .382 winning % since Russ was promoted in 2006 to a high level position. He has been here for the entire 14 year playoff drought and sold home games to Toronto for cash so it's time for Russ to hit the road.

Edited September 11, 2014 by b2henning

[Kirby Jackson]

Russ Brandon's only advice if any to Whaley before the draft should have been to make the team better. When your boss that hires you and can fire you tells you to make "bold moves" at the draft and you proceed to use potentially two top ten picks and a 4th to move up 5 spots for a WR that's interesting.

 

When at the press conference following Whaley says that this all goes to Russ Brandon and that there "wasn't really rated that much higher of a difference" between Watkins and the next WR's that catches my attention.

 

I can speak to this a little bit. That is false. Watkins was their highest graded player since Andrew Luck.

[GunnerBill]

Also I think the working the phones on draft day bit is way overblown. They explained it very clearly. The strategy was get up for Watkins. Each guy in that room had a team they were detailed to speak to in that top 5 or 6. Brandon knows the Jaguars GM very well they are old friends. It made absolute sesne that you say to him "Russ the Jagas are your call..... find out what you can." I've said before when I speak to my mates I can tell things they are thinking without them telling me directly because I know them. Nobody was better suited to reading between the lines of what Caudwell was saying than Russ Brandon.

[GA BILLS FAN]

^ To all above.

 

I'm sorry if I confused the argument along the way, sometimes that happens when you respond to multiple posters who disagree with you but amongst themselves have slightly different POV's.

 

I believe Brandon (in his current post-January 2013) capacity as Pres/CEO SHOULD be INVOLVED in football operations. The exact nature of involvement and the specific role he plays isn't that much of an issue with me and I tried to capture in my last post what I believe that involvement should be. My issue with several posters was whether as Pres/CEO he should be held accountable for the performance of the team and the performance of the football operations. I don't feel he should be immune if there is continued poor performance. I think we are pretty closely aligned on that, although there are posters that continue to feel he shouldn't be accountable even now.

 

I have fervor (as Bandit says) or I'm on a crusade (as others have said) because I believe (and this is where we depart company) that he had culpability prior to January 2013 for the performance of the team that took place in the previous decade. Like I said, I don't want to relitigate that debate, but rather crystalize that's where we seem to have our major disagreement.

 

In other words, you all (those listed above), have essentially given Brandon an almost clean slate with respect to the on the field performance of the football team as of January 2013, and I just can't do that.

 

Said another way, I didn't think it was wrong for Brandon to be in the draft room engaged and working the phones along side Whaley. If that's the involvement he wanted as president/CEO, that's fine. My issue with those images was with HIM SPECIFICALLY being that person in that role and he being involved, because in my mind he represents the decade plus of ineptitude that has existed and shouldn't have been in that role in the first place.

 

I hope this at least puts our areas of agreement / disagreement in clearer focus.

Edited September 11, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN

[Mr. WEO]

Isn't France Ray Rice's agent?