Jerry Jones 'damn mad' about missing Johnny Manziel

[BADOLBILZ]

Um... The last legit dynasty? The Pats also won 3 SBs in 4 years and made it to the SB two other times to boot only to lose in the last minute both times. And they've had a winning record 13 seasons in a row and made the playoffs in 11 of those years (soon to be 12 when they win the afc east again this year). That cowboys team was great, but they're a pale shadow of the pats' dynasty.

 

C'mon, man!

 

3 very close SB wins while cheating means you aren't a legit dynasty to me. Other teams were doing it? Mickey Mantle was jacked on amphetamines and noboby discredits his HR's the way they do the steroid era players because it wasn't monitored at the time so he never got "caught". Getting caught matters. Cheat as the may have, that Cowboys team won with star power and sheer force of talent. The Pats had an uncanny ability to plug in ANYBODY during that SB run and they would perform at a high level. They still have a great culture of winning that helps but they lost that magic when they lost their ability to do that after spygate. Now when they have injuries on defense, they finish near the bottom of the league in defense and win because they have a great QB. I appreciate the greatness of Belichick but dynasty? Not IMO because of the cheating.

[The Dean]

3 very close SB wins while cheating means you aren't a legit dynasty to me. Other teams were doing it? Mickey Mantle was jacked on amphetamines and noboby discredits his HR's the way they do the steroid era players because it wasn't monitored at the time so he never got "caught". Getting caught matters. Cheat as the may have, that Cowboys team won with star power and sheer force of talent. The Pats had an uncanny ability to plug in ANYBODY during that SB run and they would perform at a high level. They still have a great culture of winning that helps but they lost that magic when they lost their ability to do that after spygate. Now when they have injuries on defense, they finish near the bottom of the league in defense and win because they have a great QB. I appreciate the greatness of Belichick but dynasty? Not IMO because of the cheating.

 

Here's one of the reasons I think the cheating thing is so huge:

 

According to many, everybody does what Belicheat did. And what he did, so they say, was really not an advantage in any meaningful sense. So: A. His level of cheating is something most/all teams do. B. His type of cheating doesn't give a team that much of an advantage.

 

So Belicheat gets accused of cheating, and after an investigating (which IMO was rushed for an incident of this type...but let's just let that go), the league found against him. The penalty was assessed: $500.000 (largest fine ever against a HC at the time and the maximum allowed--same fine as Irsay's), Pats* fined $250,000, and the team lost their !st round pick in the following year. Belicheat* was not suspended.

 

That penalty, at face value, DRACONIAN for an offense that: A. Everybody employs B: Doesn't give a team any substantial advantage. One would think that kind of penalty would only be assessed for a very serious infraction. Certainly it must have been something, and something big, no? The NFL isn't one to just go out of it's way for bad publicity.

 

And one has to ask the question: If Belicheat didn't think his particular sort of cheating gave him any perceptible advantage, why did he bother to break the NFL rules and engage in it? Might the information you gather be enough for a 1st down, here or there? Enough for, perhaps, a three point advantage? In every one of the three SBs won by the Pats* while Belicheat was head coach, the margin of victory was 3 points.

 

But there's more than meets the eye here. This penalty, while huge in theory, was virtually nothing in reality. Belicheat was find $500,000, a large amount to pay for most individuals. But I believe Belicheat was given a multi-million dollar raise just subsequent to that. Essentially, Kraft paid his fine (indirectly) plus a raise. The Pats* first round pick was as deep in to the round as it gets. A penalty? Sure. A devastating penalty for a team that has a championship roster? Hardly. Finally the $250.000 fine is of no real consequence whatsoever. Kraft is one of the few where even a $500,000 penalty hardly causes pain. This is against his team and is half that. In effect, the Pats* went virtually unpunished.

 

Finally, all the tapes and all the evidence collected, was destroyed. What? Seriously? Belicheat, Kraft and The Patriots* agreed to accept the decision and let the evidence be destroyed. No appeal? That's it, trash the evidence. Let us never speak of this incident again.

 

As I said earlier, I'm not one for conspiracy theories. But I am Sicilian. I believe I can recognize a situation where two parties, recognizing the best solution to a major problem...one that could cause both parties a ton of problems----is to A. One party pays a tribute B. The other party provides an easy way for that tribute to cause minimal actual pain C. Bury the bodies Burn the evidence.

 

is Belicheat a great coach? Of course. Have the Pats* been a great team with Brady and Belicheat? Absolutely. Are their Super Bowl victories tarnished? Without question.

 

I'm willing to hear other interpretations.

[dave mcbride]

3 very close SB wins while cheating means you aren't a legit dynasty to me. Other teams were doing it? Mickey Mantle was jacked on amphetamines and noboby discredits his HR's the way they do the steroid era players because it wasn't monitored at the time so he never got "caught". Getting caught matters. Cheat as the may have, that Cowboys team won with star power and sheer force of talent. The Pats had an uncanny ability to plug in ANYBODY during that SB run and they would perform at a high level. They still have a great culture of winning that helps but they lost that magic when they lost their ability to do that after spygate. Now when they have injuries on defense, they finish near the bottom of the league in defense and win because they have a great QB. I appreciate the greatness of Belichick but dynasty? Not IMO because of the cheating.

If memory serves - and I think it does - you weren't singing this song about the Pats in 08 and 09. I recall you downplaying the cheating stuff. The margin of super bowl victory is meaningless, btw -- it's not like they were playing the 89 Broncos or 92 Bills in those games. I'm not denying the greatness of that Dallas team ,but it fell apart quickly. And while the Cowboys didn't get caught, doesn't it mean something when Johnson says they cheated every which way they could despite not getting caught? It's not like he denied it. In fact, he basically celebrated it. And don't get me started on the 3-time SB champ Oakland Raiders.

Edited September 5, 2014 by dave mcbride

[C.Biscuit97]

 

I'm sorry -- this is just sophistry. If memory serves - and I think it does - you weren't singing this song about the Pats in 08 and 09. Indeed, I recall you downplaying the cheating stuff. The margin of super bowl victory is meaningless, btw -- it's not like they were playing the 89 Broncos or 92 Bills in those games ...

 

I might not be following right, and forgive me if I'm not, but are you saying the Pats SB' opponents were better than the 92 Bills?

[dave mcbride]

 

 

I might not be following right, and forgive me if I'm not, but are you saying the Pats SB' opponents were better than the 92 Bills?

I am saying that they were better than an 11-5 team that featured a qb with a bursar sac injury that notably affected his throws in the final third of the season and a shaky knee; a mediocre defense; a truly lucky comeback against the worst second half defensive gameplan in league history (and vs a team that slaughtered them in the final game of the season); and an offense that turned the ball over 9 times -- 9 times! -- in the super bowl.

 

Certainly, the 14-2 rams and the 13-3 eagles were better than the 92 bills. The 12-4 panthers were in my opinion better than the bils by the end of their respective seasons too.

Edited September 5, 2014 by dave mcbride

[C.Biscuit97]

 

I am saying that they were better than an 11-5 team that featured a qb with a bursar sac injury that notably affected his throws in the final third of the season and a shaky knee; a mediocre defense; a truly lucky comeback against the worst second half defensive gameplan in league history (and vs a team that slaughtered them in the final game of the season); and an offense that turned the ball over 9 times -- 9 times! -- in the super bowl.

 

Agreed to disagree. You can have Delhimme & the Panthers and McNabb & the Eagles. I'll take Kelly & the Bills. No salary cap, beat Marino & Moon to go to the SB.

 

That Washington Slurs team was one of the best SB teams ever. It's why I think Gibbs is maybe the best coach of all time. His 3rd SB win with a 3rd different qb. They would have murdered the Pats.

[The Dean]

I am saying that they were better than an 11-5 team that featured a qb with a bursar sac injury that notably affected his throws in the final third of the season and a shaky knee; a mediocre defense; a truly lucky comeback against the worst second half defensive gameplan in league history (and vs a team that slaughtered them in the final game of the season); and an offense that turned the ball over 9 times -- 9 times! -- in the super bowl.

 

Certainly, the 14-2 rams and the 13-3 eagles were better than the 92 bills. The 12-4 panthers were in my opinion better than the bils by the end of their respective seasons too.

 

I'm confused too (OK I admit I'm regularly confused). I'm not really sure what the quality of the opponent had to do with the cheating thing, and/or the margin of victory in those games. But one might think, perhaps, the better the opponent the more the cheating might make a difference in a 3-point game.Maybe. I really don't follow your point with this argument.

 

And what about the rest of the, em, ur, "issues" surrounding that entire incident?

[Buffalo Barbarian]

The moment I'm relying on you to teach me is when life is .

 

Most Manziel fans don't know about football. Particularly when it comes to quarterback play.

 

No wonder you like non clutch QBs.

 

When has EJ acted as immature as Johnny Futball?

What one does in college means SQUATT in the NFL until they can prove themselves.

 

What's Johnny Futball proven? (other than being young and stupid) nada.

 

you guys are so desperate it's pathetic.

[26CornerBlitz]

No wonder you like non clutch QBs.

 

The only thing he's worried about clutching is $$$. He'd better get it now before his 15 minutes flames out. Just like most of the other QBs you have raved about.

[dave mcbride]

 

 

I'm confused too (OK I admit I'm regularly confused). I'm not really sure what the quality of the opponent had to do with the cheating thing, and/or the margin of victory in those games. But one might think, perhaps, the better the opponent the more the cheating might make a difference in a 3-point game.Maybe. I really don't follow your point with this argument.

 

And what about the rest of the, em, ur, "issues" surrounding that entire incident?

Dean - Understood. I was taking Badol to say that the Pats sb victories were less impressive than the cowboys' victories because of the margin of victory. I was implying that the pats faced better opponents (although, truth be told the cowboys-steelers sb was a pretty close game), and i should add that parity has increased since the end of the plan b era.

[The Dean]

Dean - Understood. I was taking Badol to say that the Pats sb victories were less impressive than the cowboys' victories because of the margin of victory. I was implying that the pats faced better opponents (although, truth be told the cowboys-steelers sb was a pretty close game), and i should add that parity has increased since the end of the plan b era.

 

True enough.

[dave mcbride]

Agreed to disagree. You can have Delhimme & the Panthers and McNabb & the Eagles. I'll take Kelly & the Bills. No salary cap, beat Marino & Moon to go to the SB.

 

That Washington Slurs team was one of the best SB teams ever. It's why I think Gibbs is maybe the best coach of all time. His 3rd SB win with a 3rd different qb. They would have murdered the Pats.

C.B. - That 92 team was NOT a good team by the end of that season, and Kelly was a prime reason. That Dolphins game sticks out in my memory quite well too. Marino was basically fine, but the players around him were horrible -- at least 3-4 drops of well placed balls (one a sure TD pass to Clayton), and a brutal fumble near his own goal line by Sammy Smith. Kelly was not sharp that day - throwing behind an open Andre Reed streaking into the end zone (the ball was easily picked off). His lone TD pass was on a screen pass to Thomas in which Wolford committed blatant holding (the announcers rightly went ballistic). I'm not saying the Bills shouldn't have won that game, mind you; the Dolphins weren't that good and deserved to lose. But the Dolphins did their part in handing the game to a so-so Bills team. In their next game, the Bills played a genuinely good team and we all know the result.

 

More importantly and more to the point, in the final five games of the 92 regular season - right after Kelly ruptured a bursar sac in his elbow - these were Kelly's numbers:

 

Attempts: 128

Completions: 62

Yards: 795

TDs: 3

INTs: 8

YPA: 6.2

completion pct: 48.4

Passer rating: 50.1

 

This was a five game stretch, mind you. That's actually substantial. In the first 11 games, he threw 20 TDs and 11 INTs and had a rating of 93.2 (with 8.0 ypa).

 

I know people have very fond memories of that team, but their one great year was 1990, and they should have one the SB that year. They had a near-great team in 91 too, but were exposed a bit by the Broncos in the AFC championship game. After a good start in 1992, they really did decline, and in 1993 they squeaked their way to 12 wins in a soft conference that saw the most talented team (the Oilers) fall to the Chiefs in the divisional playoff round. That said, they had great games against the Raiders and Chiefs in the playoffs, and Kelly played his smartest football ever. They just weren't in the same class as the Cowboys, who clobbered the Bills once they figured out Levy et al's surprisingly good game plan in the final SB.

 

As for Kelly, I've long maintained that he was never the same QB after his bursar sac injury in mid-late 1992. He never threw the ball with the same velocity/power after that, or so it seemed to me. The stats bear it out -- after sky high QB ratings for 1990 (101.2), 1991 (97.6), and most of 1992 (93.2 for the first 11 games; 50.1 after), he went into the tank. He had a 79.9 rating in 1993 (their final SB year) and never did better than 84.6.

Edited September 5, 2014 by dave mcbride

[K-9]

... As for Kelly, I've long maintained that he was never the same QB after his bursar sac injury in mid-late 1992. He never threw the ball with the same velocity/power after that, or so it seemed to me. The stats bear it out -- after sky high QB ratings for 1990 (101.2), 1991 (97.6), and most of 1992 (93.2 for the first 11 games; 50.1 after), he went into the tank. He had a 79.9 rating in 1993 (their final SB year) and never did better than 84.6.

 

Very hard to argue these findings. Nice work.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[dave mcbride]

Very hard to argue these findings. Nice work.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Thanks!

[BADOLBILZ]

If memory serves - and I think it does - you weren't singing this song about the Pats in 08 and 09. I recall you downplaying the cheating stuff. The margin of super bowl victory is meaningless, btw -- it's not like they were playing the 89 Broncos or 92 Bills in those games. I'm not denying the greatness of that Dallas team ,but it fell apart quickly. And while the Cowboys didn't get caught, doesn't it mean something when Johnson says they cheated every which way they could despite not getting caught? It's not like he denied it. In fact, he basically celebrated it. And don't get me started on the 3-time SB champ Oakland Raiders.

 

I have downplayed the impact of spygate but not with regard to ultimately winning SB's. More in regard to how it impacted the Pats beating the lowly 2000's Bills....a common losers lament around here. The Bills didn't lose to the Pats because of cheating. Did it turn routine defeat into a complete beatdown on many occasions? I believe so, but those Bills weren't beating ANY good teams whether those teams were cheating or barely even showing up to play. The Pats subsequent amount of SB victories post spygate...zero.....and the Bills subsequent success against the Pats....none...supports my conclusion, IMO.

[Snorom]

yeah Jones has been such a fantastic GM

 

Manziel won't amount to anythign