vegas55 Posted September 1, 2014 Author Share Posted September 1, 2014 I gave you multiple reasons. I have a pretty good sense for the revenue streams in pro sports. I do not know the detail of those deals but I am 100% positive that it is more than zero. The largest sponsorship deals are 7 figures annually. My guess is that particular asset is probably valued at $100K. I am not saying that the sponsorship deal alone offsets the revenue but the extra marketing and concession opportunities are projected to push the Bills revenue to somewhere between $270-$280M. I believe that Forbes had them at $252M in 2013. Well who knew. There was no real need to sell games to Toronto, the Bills back then simply had to replace a few of their food stands with Tim Hortons and Duffs and they would have been good to go. I am 100 positive that the enhanced revenue is more than zero too, but that's saying virtually nothing. The only facts that are known is that the Buffalo Bills did not require the extra revenue that the Toronto games produced to remain very profitable and remain in Buffalo. I don't need to imagine that I have a "pretty good sense for revenue streams in pro sports" (whatever that might mean). The actual numbers, long made public, demonstrate that the Bills were very profitable with or WITHOUT the sale of games to Toronto. The actual numbers (not projections) demonstrate that Ralph made well over a billion dollars from his ownership of the Bills. And my original post touched on the greed of people who make billions, but would do things like sacrifice the teams competitive advantage for an extra few million dollars profit, while making the teams fans/taxpayers pay for your stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 It will be interesting to see if the new owner sells the naming rights for the current stadium or if he waits another couple years before doing so out of respect to the departed owner? Or if there are plans to build a new facility wait until a new facility or the current facility is updated before selling the naming rights? Pegula doesn't need the additional revenue stream of the naming rights. I could see him keeping the name "Ralph Wilson Stadium" as an homage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 It will be interesting to see if the new owner sells the naming rights for the current stadium or if he waits another couple years before doing so out of respect to the departed owner? Or if there are plans to build a new facility wait until a new facility or the current facility is updated before selling the naming rights? That is an interesting question. My guess is that they will sell the name of the field (EG: Geico Field at Ralph Wilson Stadium). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Well who knew. There was no real need to sell games to Toronto, the Bills back then simply had to replace a few of their food stands with Tim Hortons and Duffs and they would have been good to go. I am 100 positive that the enhanced revenue is more than zero too, but that's saying virtually nothing. The only facts that are known is that the Buffalo Bills did not require the extra revenue that the Toronto games produced to remain very profitable and remain in Buffalo. I don't need to imagine that I have a "pretty good sense for revenue streams in pro sports" (whatever that might mean). The actual numbers, long made public, demonstrate that the Bills were very profitable with or WITHOUT the sale of games to Toronto. The actual numbers (not projections) demonstrate that Ralph made well over a billion dollars from his ownership of the Bills. And my original post touched on the greed of people who make billions, but would do things like sacrifice the teams competitive advantage for an extra few million dollars profit, while making the teams fans/taxpayers pay for your stadium. Please define "very profitable." If team A spends 35% of revenues on player costs and team B spend 65% of revenue on player costs, who's in the better competitive position? You sound like a bitter, angry person. Did Ralph Wilson run over your dog? GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Well who knew. There was no real need to sell games to Toronto, the Bills back then simply had to replace a few of their food stands with Tim Hortons and Duffs and they would have been good to go. I am 100 positive that the enhanced revenue is more than zero too, but that's saying virtually nothing. The only facts that are known is that the Buffalo Bills did not require the extra revenue that the Toronto games produced to remain very profitable and remain in Buffalo. I don't need to imagine that I have a "pretty good sense for revenue streams in pro sports" (whatever that might mean). The actual numbers, long made public, demonstrate that the Bills were very profitable with or WITHOUT the sale of games to Toronto. The actual numbers (not projections) demonstrate that Ralph made well over a billion dollars from his ownership of the Bills. And my original post touched on the greed of people who make billions, but would do things like sacrifice the teams competitive advantage for an extra few million dollars profit, while making the teams fans/taxpayers pay for your stadium. Toronto was a long term play. They needed that market as well as Rochester to be successful long term. The new stadium will be priced closer to the rest of the league which means there will be people priced out of their current locations. The tickets will remain affordable but you won't be sitting at midfield in the lower level for $70. You talk about greed and there are countless examples of RW passing up revenue (price increases, naming rights, etc...). If you want to say ego that's one thing but greed is another. Pro sports are a business and he reserves the right to run his business as he chooses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prissythecat Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Much discussion in recent times concerning greed and the American economy. But exhibit A for pure greed could easily be many of the current owners of NFL franchises. Robert Kraft for example. So Kraft buys the New England franchise for about 400 million and it's now valued at over 2 billion. Nice profit right? Plus the substantial 50 million+ yearly profit he grinds out. But is that anywhere near enough for this guy, who is so often touted by the media for his "charitable" works. Give me a break. He squeezes every penny out of the fans who attend the games. From parking to concessions he charges the families that attend the very most he possibly can, I suppose, of course, because 2 to 3 billion dollars is just not enough for him. So ban fans from bringing in water bottles to the game, then charge 4 dollars for a bottle of your 25 cent water. If the water supply in Boston was suddenly poisoned, and the local 7-11 store started charging 4 bucks for a bottle of water, people would burn down the store. But Kraft is a saint. Who, along with Jerry Jones, would love to see the Bills relocate so as to enhance NFL revenue. But why look all the way to the New England area for egregious examples of greed. How about one Ralph Wilson Jr, hero to many in WNY as well as many on this board. Despite running (into the ground) one of the most dysfunctional franchises in NFL history, he managed to pocket well over one billion dollars in net profit as a reward for his epic mismanagement. His greed knew no bounds. To the community that built him his stadium, payed for it's up keep, spent hundreds of millions to improve, he extended a his middle finger from the grave. Puts the franchise up for the highest bidder, while sneaking in an escape clause in the lease allowing the team to be moved. And having his trust keep giving the low bidding out of towners chance after chance to increase their bid so as to squeeze yet even more money out of this franchise. At least Kraft contributed to the construction/maintenance costs of his stadium, and did not have the unmitigated arrogance to have the taxpayers forego the lucrative naming rights so as to have the stadium named after himself. Contemplate Wilson's greed. He is 90+ years old and a billion dollars to the good yet sacrifices his team's chances to win games by selling two games per year to Toronto; all for just an extra 5 - 10 million dollars. That's pure greed folks, and some day I hope the WNY area will wake up and cease and desist in their hero worship of Wilson. The first thing I would do after this team is sold is to rename the stadium. How much do vendors in airports charge for a bottle of water? How much does a theater charge for popcorn and a soda? Greed seems to a abound everywhere.... Maybe we should institute a socialist economic model then to eliminate such rampant greed, Also you keep citing that NFL owners such as Wilson's family or Kraft would profit in the billions if their teams are sold. Is this really true? If we tallied money in and money out over the years and did the normal time adjustment for the value of the dollar , it likely is the case that the profit would not be as anywhere as big as a number like to claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Can we please move this thread to PPP, where it belongs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 (edited) This is where, in the movies, a slow clap would be started. yes, in response to one of those manipulative, mostly fictional biopics that are so successful at evoking such a response. when i think of movies and nfl owners, i'm reminded of the original "rollerball" or the promoter in "gladiator". not a lot of slow claps after those ones. Edited September 2, 2014 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 I ... I stopped reading right here...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 That is an interesting question. My guess is that they will sell the name of the field (EG: Geico Field at Ralph Wilson Stadium). I agree with that. The Wilson name has to stay involved in some way. How many teams have one owner going back to the 50's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Toronto was a long term play. They needed that market as well as Rochester to be successful long term. The new stadium will be priced closer to the rest of the league which means there will be people priced out of their current locations. The tickets will remain affordable but you won't be sitting at midfield in the lower level for $70. You talk about greed and there are countless examples of RW passing up revenue (price increases, naming rights, etc...). If you want to say ego that's one thing but greed is another. Pro sports are a business and he reserves the right to run his business as he chooses. Very true and we as fans reserve the right to describe what he does any way we wish: Why is Lou Saban's name not up on that wall?? was this a kind act of RW? Why did Jim Kelly sign with USFL instead of Bills? Why did Joe Cribbs sign with the USFL? Where did Ahmad Rashad go to? Where did Will Wolford go to? Where did the #1 NFL draft pick go to? We the people of Erie County built the stadium for him and this is how he responded? And we thank him for his generosity and then name the stadium after him?? And this guy is in the hall of fame? amazing..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoho Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Very true and we as fans reserve the right to describe what he does any way we wish: Why is Lou Saban's name not up on that wall?? was this a kind act of RW? Why did Jim Kelly sign with USFL instead of Bills? Why did Joe Cribbs sign with the USFL? Where did Ahmad Rashad go to? Where did Will Wolford go to? Where did the #1 NFL draft pick go to? We the people of Erie County built the stadium for him and this is how he responded? And we thank him for his generosity and then name the stadium after him?? And this guy is in the hall of fame? amazing..... Yes. Because of Ralph Wilson, there is a team called the "Buffalo Bills" Thank God, he was not a money hungry businessman because he had a wonderful opportunity to move the Bills to Houston when they did not have a team. For some reason, he stayed loyal to Buffalo. Wow, Erie County built him a stadium in 1970. That guarantees lifetime loyality, You want ingrateful owners see the Houston Oilers, Cleveland Browns, Baltimore Colts, ST. Louis Rams, Oakland Raiders, Los Angelas Raiders. We grew up in Buffalo, a terrible, dying city for the last 30 years that we love but dont pretend we are entitled to anything and thank "Mr. Wilson" for his loyality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper13 Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 NFL will eventually implode due to its greed. TV money will be $25 billion a year in a decade. It's $9 billion now. They will take games off network TV and put them on PPV. They need a way to pay for rights fees and advertising alone won't cut it. Will ticket prices ever go down? Nope. They will go up and up and up as will everything else. Buffalo gets a new stadium? Ticket prices will double. It's barely affordable for a lot of people now. Why do we need a billion plus dollar stadium? Go look at what Baylor built for $265 million. Why do you need more than that? You don't. The NFL (owners) need to make more and more and more money, that's all there is to it. Eventually the majority of people will not be able to afford to go to any games or watch them on TV, franchises will fold or move and that will eventually be the end of the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Yes. Because of Ralph Wilson, there is a team called the "Buffalo Bills" Thank God, he was not a money hungry businessman because he had a wonderful opportunity to move the Bills to Houston when they did not have a team. For some reason, he stayed loyal to Buffalo. Wow, Erie County built him a stadium in 1970. That guarantees lifetime loyality, You want ingrateful owners see the Houston Oilers, Cleveland Browns, Baltimore Colts, ST. Louis Rams, Oakland Raiders, Los Angelas Raiders. We grew up in Buffalo, a terrible, dying city for the last 30 years that we love but dont pretend we are entitled to anything and thank "Mr. Wilson" for his loyality. I grew up in Erie County too.... How about telling RW to be grateful for the championships delivered by Lou Saban and then the return of Lou to take the Bills from nowhere to somewhere and rightfully put his name where it belongs - on the wall of fame!!! Without his name up there - lets just call it the wall of ralphs friends....since the top criteria is to be friendly to RW - else no name up there..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoho Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 NFL will eventually implode due to its greed. TV money will be $25 billion a year in a decade. It's $9 billion now. They will take games off network TV and put them on PPV. They need a way to pay for rights fees and advertising alone won't cut it. Will ticket prices ever go down? Nope. They will go up and up and up as will everything else. Buffalo gets a new stadium? Ticket prices will double. It's barely affordable for a lot of people now. Why do we need a billion plus dollar stadium? Go look at what Baylor built for $265 million. Why do you need more than that? You don't. The NFL (owners) need to make more and more and more money, that's all there is to it. Eventually the majority of people will not be able to afford to go to any games or watch them on TV, franchises will fold or move and that will eventually be the end of the NFL. You really believe that NFL owners, most of who have been highly successful businessmen, will let the league impolde with stupid business decisions. When I was a kid, I watched games for free and now I happily pay $200 per month for stuff I never imagined I wanted when i was younger. People pay $2 for a bottle of water that you could get out of a sink. $100 for sneakers that used to be $20. Don't blame capitalism, blame yourself for stupid purchases. The NFL will be just fine for a long time to come, Relax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Can we please move this thread to PPP, where it belongs? It's the very least the OP deserves. I'm guessing he picked his screen name as a sign of protest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoho Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 I grew up in Erie County too.... How about telling RW to be grateful for the championships delivered by Lou Saban and then the return of Lou to take the Bills from nowhere to somewhere and rightfully put his name where it belongs - on the wall of fame!!! Without his name up there - lets just call it the wall of ralphs friends....since the top criteria is to be friendly to RW - else no name up there..... Lou Saban quit Buffalo to go to Denver. Who knows the reason. Maybe it is time to let go of 50 year old grudges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 (edited) Lou Saban quit Buffalo to go to Denver. Who knows the reason. Maybe it is time to let go of 50 year old grudges Lou Saban quit on the Bills twice. Come to think of it, he quit on a number of jobs he had. Quite the job hopper. GO BILLS!!! Edited September 2, 2014 by K-9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 NFL will eventually implode due to its greed. TV money will be $25 billion a year in a decade. It's $9 billion now. They will take games off network TV and put them on PPV. They need a way to pay for rights fees and advertising alone won't cut it. Will ticket prices ever go down? Nope. They will go up and up and up as will everything else. Buffalo gets a new stadium? Ticket prices will double. It's barely affordable for a lot of people now. Why do we need a billion plus dollar stadium? Go look at what Baylor built for $265 million. Why do you need more than that? You don't. The NFL (owners) need to make more and more and more money, that's all there is to it. Eventually the majority of people will not be able to afford to go to any games or watch them on TV, franchises will fold or move and that will eventually be the end of the NFL. Everything comes to an end. The Roman Empire went away. The NFL has a lot of decline ahead before it goes away. "Eventually" was the key word. Tons of factors in the long term (concussions, potentially declining kid participation, ticket prices, etc.), but right now they are one of the top dogs in entertainment revenue. That doesn't change quickly. I wouldn't sell my stock today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Lou Saban quit Buffalo to go to Denver. Who knows the reason. Maybe it is time to let go of 50 year old grudges Agreed - Let go of the grudges and put Lou Saban's name up on the wall Chuck Knox left Bill Polian left John Butler left All brought great success - gee I wonder why they all left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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