Greed and the NFL

[Yoho]

Agreed - Let go of the grudges and put Lou Saban's name up on the wall

 

Chuck Knox left

Bill Polian left

John Butler left

 

All brought great success - gee I wonder why they all left?

 

Tell me why they all left. Most franchises have had successful people leave over a 54 year history. Lou Saban was notorious for leaving what he started. If Ralph can be faulted, it was because he was too loyal to guys that were Bills; Stew Barber, Harvey Johnson. For whatever faults Ralph had, he kept the team in Buffalo. And that makes up for everything else.

[Augie]

 

 

Agreed - Let go of the grudges and put Lou Saban's name up on the wall

 

Chuck Knox left

Bill Polian left

John Butler left

 

All brought great success - gee I wonder why they all left?

 

Polian is a no brainer HOF guy. Get him on the Wall then we can talk about the rest. No one's perfect, but the Bills are in WNY.

[jahbonas]

Tell me why they all left. Most franchises have had successful people leave over a 54 year history. Lou Saban was notorious for leaving what he started. If Ralph can be faulted, it was because he was too loyal to guys that were Bills; Stew Barber, Harvey Johnson. For whatever faults Ralph had, he kept the team in Buffalo. And that makes up for everything else.

 

He was loyal to "yes men" - not great at their job but they got along with RW

 

Chuck Knox left because no committment - his owner chose to not sign #1 pick overall in NFL draft 1979 and he was correct whe RW saved money again letting Joe Cribbs go to USFL and Jim Kelly go to USFL - Knox said bye bye and brought division titles to seattle and Buffalo went back to back 2-14

 

John Butler left likely due to the wade phillips issue - Butler wanted Wade back in San Diego

We have not been to the playoffs since Butler left - by the way Butler was 3rd lowest paid GM when he left even though the Bills under Polian and him made playoffs 11 of 12 prior years. Compare that now to 0-14 and counting

[Augie]

 

 

He was loyal to "yes men" - not great at their job but they got along with RW

 

Chuck Knox left because no committment - his owner chose to not sign #1 pick overall in NFL draft 1979 and he was correct whe RW saved money again letting Joe Cribbs go to USFL and Jim Kelly go to USFL - Knox said bye bye and brought division titles to seattle and Buffalo went back to back 2-14

 

John Butler left likely due to the wade phillips issue - Butler wanted Wade back in San Diego

We have not been to the playoffs since Butler left - by the way Butler was 3rd lowest paid GM when he left even though the Bills under Polian and him made playoffs 11 of 12 prior years. Compare that now to 0-14 and counting

 

That may all be true. It's also history. The present looks like Ralph did everything possible to keep the team in WNY for the foreseeable future. I'll forgive some past grievances for his passing on hundreds of millions of additional dollars to his family on the sale of the team. Be glad there's a team to cheer for. Almost any other owner and we'd be the NFL version of the Clippers. I'm OK with rational discussion, but Ralph bashing should be punishable with something utterly humiliating.

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

Off season is over in 5 days. I, for one, can't wait.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

Much discussion in recent times concerning greed and the American economy. But exhibit A for pure greed could easily be many of the current owners of NFL franchises. Robert Kraft for example.

 

So Kraft buys the New England franchise for about 400 million and it's now valued at over 2 billion. Nice profit right? Plus the substantial 50 million+ yearly profit he grinds out. But is that anywhere near enough for this guy, who is so often touted by the media for his "charitable" works. Give me a break. He squeezes every penny out of the fans who attend the games. From parking to concessions he charges the families that attend the very most he possibly can, I suppose, of course, because 2 to 3 billion dollars is just not enough for him. So ban fans from bringing in water bottles to the game, then charge 4 dollars for a bottle of your 25 cent water. If the water supply in Boston was suddenly poisoned, and the local 7-11 store started charging 4 bucks for a bottle of water, people would burn down the store. But Kraft is a saint. Who, along with Jerry Jones, would love to see the Bills relocate so as to enhance NFL revenue.

 

But why look all the way to the New England area for egregious examples of greed. How about one Ralph Wilson Jr, hero to many in WNY as well as many on this board. Despite running (into the ground) one of the most dysfunctional franchises in NFL history, he managed to pocket well over one billion dollars in net profit as a reward for his epic mismanagement. His greed knew no bounds. To the community that built him his stadium, payed for it's up keep, spent hundreds of millions to improve, he extended a his middle finger from the grave. Puts the franchise up for the highest bidder, while sneaking in an escape clause in the lease allowing the team to be moved. And having his trust keep giving the low bidding out of towners chance after chance to increase their bid so as to squeeze yet even more money out of this franchise. At least Kraft contributed to the construction/maintenance costs of his stadium, and did not have the unmitigated arrogance to have the taxpayers forego the lucrative naming rights so as to have the stadium named after himself.

 

Contemplate Wilson's greed. He is 90+ years old and a billion dollars to the good yet sacrifices his team's chances to win games by selling two games per year to Toronto; all for just an extra 5 - 10 million dollars. That's pure greed folks, and some day I hope the WNY area will wake up and cease and desist in their hero worship of Wilson. The first thing I would do after this team is sold is to rename the stadium.

 

There are many things wrong with your post; however, this is not accurate at all. There is no profit for a asset still being held by its owner. It doesn't matter what the perceived value is because it not for sale. So, unless Kraft borrows against the team, which I guess he would not do(and may even be rules against this), the additional 1.6 billion is not there to use. He has laid out $400 million and is making a yearly profit. That is the same as every other company in America, not necessarily the profit but making any investment and hoping for a return.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

Polian is a no brainer HOF guy. Get him on the Wall then we can talk about the rest. No one's perfect, but the Bills are in WNY.

 

Polian is on the Wall of Fame ... he was added in 2012

[Augie]

 

 

Polian is on the Wall of Fame ... he was added in 2012

 

Details, details. Thanks. haha My bad, my point was just he's an all time genius. The others are debatable.

[jahbonas]

Details, details. Thanks. haha My bad, my point was just he's an all time genius. The others are debatable.

 

Do you even know who Lou Saban was?

[birdog1960]

Tell me why they all left. Most franchises have had successful people leave over a 54 year history. Lou Saban was notorious for leaving what he started. If Ralph can be faulted, it was because he was too loyal to guys that were Bills; Stew Barber, Harvey Johnson. For whatever faults Ralph had, he kept the team in Buffalo. And that makes up for everything else.

to you and many here it does. many others disagree.

[JohnC]

 

Pegula doesn't need the additional revenue stream of the naming rights. I could see him keeping the name "Ralph Wilson Stadium" as an homage.

 

The issue isn't how much money Pegula has overall so much as the business entity by itself having enough money to cover the costs of the opersation. Pegula invested in Canalside not to lose money even though he could sustain some losses without it having a major affect on his wealth. Even with the hockey operation I don't expect that he will be losing money, although in the short term he did infuse the operation with money that was ill spent. That profligate approach now has changed.

[JohnC]

 

 

Why is Lou Saban's name not up on that wall?? was this a kind act of RW?

 

Ed Kilgore was a member of the selection committee for the Wall selectiions. According to Kilgore Wilson was adament that he would not approve of Saban being on the Wall as long as he was alive because he felt that Saban twice walked away from the teamm, which he did. But Kilgore also stated that Ralph told the members that he after he passes the committee had the right to select him for the Wall. Whether you agree with Wilson or not his position was not unreasonable or should be categorized as being spiteful. There certainlywas a basis for his position.

 

[nucci]

Off season is over in 5 days. I, for one, can't wait.

But this stuff won't end

[GG]

(Greasing skids for PPP)

 

 

And what does all of this have to do with greed? And exactly how does a dead man profit from a sale of his team?

[Mr. WEO]

The revenue was as much a reason as the regionalization with Toronto. I know this to be true. After the CBA that RW voted against he had big concerns about the nonshared revenue driving the cap. It was kind of paranoia and they felt as a franchise they had to do things differently than other teams because they were close to tapped out with the revenue that they could make at RWS. The nonshared revenues haven't climbed at the rate that he feared but that is in part because of the shared revenues expanding so quickly.

 

In terms of moving the team there are markets out there that he could have showed "a little leg" to if he wasn't making progress with the state. San Antonio and LA come to mind. Norfolk Virginia and Louisville have been quietly in pursuit of a major pro sports team for quite sometime.

 

I do know that they will because they already have. Do you think that Duffs, Tim Hortons and La Nova are getting that spot for free?!? They have all become or expanded their partnership deal for the rights to sell the product.

 

I don't disagree that Toronto was a mistake on the field but it accomplished the organizations business goals.

 

With the looming massive new TV contracts nearly due, Wilson had little to worry about as far as unshared revenue and the cap. The cap is nearly completely subsidized by TV money. That will be true for the life of the current contracts. A relatively small (per annum) cash infusion from the suckers up north didn't change the viablilty of the Bills in the slightest because they were already clearing a profit under he old CBA. In 2005, they were 13th in operating revenue--ahead of the Giants, Steelers, 49ers, Falcons and other bigger market teams.

 

Virginia and Louisville are completely out of the question for the NFL. Ditto San Antonio. LA without a stadium is dead in the water for decades now.

 

 

Yep. Ralph turned to Toronto after seeing how bad the 2006 CBA really was.

 

 

As I said before, by the time the NFL was awarding expansion teams to Jax and Carolina (in 1993), the Rich/Ralph was already 20 years old. So there was Jax, Carolina, Baltimore, Houston, and hell even Cleveland, where he could have moved the team.

 

Ralph voted against the CBA because he felt that the supplimental revenue sharing that he had his eyes on was going to be decreased (it was decreased in the subsequent/cureent CBA also, but I don't think he noticed). Even though he was clearing tens of millions a year, he still wanted access to more free money that the real big revenue teams were earning.

 

And your mentioning expansion cities as destinations for the BIlls makes no sense. The NFL was....expanding into new markets. There is no way they would have voted on Ralph's sudden urge to move the Bills to Carolina or Jax. Also, the NFL had "suspended" the Browns in Cleveland until a new "Browns" team could replace the old team. So Cleveland makes no sense as a destination either.

 

Once Wilson squeezed a new stadium out of the County, the Ralph was often renovated/updated, whenever Wilson wanted. There was no reason for him to move--all other owners moved over stadium issues, not "to make more money in bigger markets". Erie County made sure that there was never a reason for Ralph to seriously (or actually) consider moving the team--despite his lame talk about "Hartford" and such if his "deadline" for seeling luxo-boxes in 1998 wasn't met.

 

He was a bluffer, but poor Erie County was never in a position to call his bluff, as had each city/municipality where a an owner had actually left town with the team.

 

He had a sweet deal and he knew it. The Bills was printing money for him. All he had to do was sit back and watch it roll in--no matter how bad the team was. He was no fool and he wasn't going anywhere.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

With the looming massive new TV contracts nearly due, Wilson had little to worry about as far as unshared revenue and the cap. The cap is nearly completely subsidized by TV money. That will be true for the life of the current contracts. A relatively small (per annum) cash infusion from the suckers up north didn't change the viablilty of the Bills in the slightest because they were already clearing a profit under he old CBA. In 2005, they were 13th in operating revenue--ahead of the Giants, Steelers, 49ers, Falcons and other bigger market teams.

 

Virginia and Louisville are completely out of the question for the NFL. Ditto San Antonio. LA without a stadium is dead in the water for decades now.

I don't disagree that his fears have been pretty much unfounded. The TV deals are continuing to grow at a rate that we could not have foreseen. Everyone knew that was the bread and butter but the Thursday Night deal (twice), the new Sunday Ticket deal, etc... have turned in TV money that is beyond what they anticipated.

 

In terms of those other markets (Portland is another) they are viable to some degree. RW would have needed to have been motivated to move (which he never really was). You will see a pro sports team in Norfolk and in Louisville in the next decade. Teams have been flirting with them for a while. My best guess is that it isn't a football team. The same goes for KC as they built an arena that they have been offering rent free to an NBA or NHL team. Everyone threatens there but for some reason no one has pulled the trigger. Portland and San Antonio are the next two domestic markets for the NFL IMO (if there are 2 more).

[JohnC]

I don't disagree that his fears have been pretty much unfounded. The TV deals are continuing to grow at a rate that we could not have foreseen. Everyone knew that was the bread and butter but the Thursday Night deal (twice), the new Sunday Ticket deal, etc... have turned in TV money that is beyond what they anticipated.

 

In terms of those other markets (Portland is another) they are viable to some degree. RW would have needed to have been motivated to move (which he never really was). You will see a pro sports team in Norfolk and in Louisville in the next decade. Teams have been flirting with them for a while. My best guess is that it isn't a football team. The same goes for KC as they built an arena that they have been offering rent free to an NBA or NHL team. Everyone threatens there but for some reason no one has pulled the trigger. Portland and San Antonio are the next two domestic markets for the NFL IMO (if there are 2 more).

 

The point that WEO has convincingly made is that Wilson was not being financially penalized by staying in the western NY market. He was very much accommodated on his facility needs and whatever financial requests he made to the various public authorities. The storyline that he was mostly being benevolent to his long term market at a great financial sacrifice is not an accurate portrayal of the situatiion.

 

Ralph Wilson was a tough businessman. No one can dispute that. But in general he was fair. The truth of the matter is that he adjusted his business (tighter internal cash/flow) to the market and the market made accommodatiions for him.

 

My major criticism of the owner doesnt relate to his business management of the franchise. From a business standpoint the Littman model served him very well. The majority of my criticisms of him related to how he managed the football operation. If the football people he selected to run the franchise were half as competent as the business people he had run the business this franchise would have been more successful on the field.

[K-9]

...Ralph voted against the CBA because he felt that the supplimental revenue sharing that he had his eyes on was going to be decreased (it was decreased in the subsequent/cureent CBA also, but I don't think he noticed). Even though he was clearing tens of millions a year, he still wanted access to more free money that the real big revenue teams were earning.

 

This is incorrect. We've been down this road before and I have no wish to revisit a dead issue. Suffice to say he voted against the CBA for two reasons: the player share of revenues was too high and non-shared revenue was included in the player's share for the first time. This placed a disproportionate burden on teams generating less unshared revenues than those that generated the lion's share. Furthermore, the qualifiers for supplemental revenue sharing were never defined at the time of the 2006 CBA and Mr. Wilson cited that as another reason why he voted no. Not coincidentally the NFLPA filed a grievance in 2010 accusing the league of never paying tens of millions of dollars in revenue share to low revenue teams which would have been in violation of the 2006 agreement.

 

Bottom line is that Mr. Wilson was totally vindicated for the stance he took in 2006.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

The point that WEO has convincingly made is that Wilson was not being financially penalized by staying in the western NY market. He was very much accommodated on his facility needs and whatever financial requests he made to the various public authorities. The storyline that he was mostly being benevolent to his long term market at a great financial sacrifice is not an accurate portrayal of the situatiion.

 

Ralph Wilson was a tough businessman. No one can dispute that. But in general he was fair. The truth of the matter is that he adjusted his business (tighter internal cash/flow) to the market and the market made accommodatiions for him.

 

My major criticism of the owner doesnt relate to his business management of the franchise. From a business standpoint the Littman model served him very well. The majority of my criticisms of him related to how he managed the football operation. If the football people he selected to run the franchise were half as competent as the business people he had run the business this franchise would have been more successful on the field.

I don't think that anyone can dispute any of that and that is a really good post.

 

The only point that I was attempting to make is that he feared the nonshared revenues skyrocketing to a point that made that playing field unfair. It hasn't happened. That is due in large part to the shared revenues growing so rapidly.

[JohnC]

I don't think that anyone can dispute any of that and that is a really good post.

 

The only point that I was attempting to make is that he feared the nonshared revenues skyrocketing to a point that made that playing field unfair. It hasn't happened. That is due in large part to the shared revenues growing so rapidly.

 

The new CBA resulting from opening the former CBA deal enhanced the financial position of the owners. Although the players got less of a share percentage wise from the expected increase in the revenue from TV and "tech devices" the players will still see more revenue than with the prior deal. The players can't complain because the owners are for the most part assuming a greater responsibility for the facilities that they are playing in. In addition, there are looming health care costs associated with the "crash" sport that the league knew that they would be responsible (liable) for.

 

The looming health repercussions for current and former players was a great fear of the league and the commissioner. It was a ticking time bomb for the legal side of the business. It is a very complicated issue for a sport that is inherently dangerous. In my opinion Goodell has navigated this tricky road fairly well.

Edited September 2, 2014 by JohnC