Does the front office have a clue?

[Kelly the Dog]

Are we talking about the entire front office or are we separating the coaching staff from the rest of the front office.

 

There's clearly a change at OBD, but doesn't look like it was a quantum leap that many of us hoped for.

 

Whaley deserves credit for moving to improve the QB position, but he's also the guy who felt comfortable with EJ, Tuel, Lewis and Dixon as the camp bodies. He was also part of the staff that felt that Fitz was way overpaid at $4 million/yr, but now has to pay Orton $5 milion.

 

So long story short, Whaley doesn't seem to be afraid to move quickly to fix his errors, but a bit of better forward thinking could save him from overpaying for obvious mistakes. Hopefully he's a faster learner that the QB he's staking his reputation on.

I have a theory. It's total conjecture but it makes sense, at least to me. Ha.

 

Whaley and Marrone are mostly on the same page. Whaley, as GM, has final say on the roster, but like every GM and HC, they have to work very closely with one another on the roster. The best pairings will usually agree the most. It's inevitable that they will sometimes disagree though, and sometimes violently disagree.

 

Marrone made decent chicken salad out of Ryan Nassib in college. He has an ego, like he should and must, and believes in his teaching power, especially offensively. They both agreed on EJ as having all kinds of physical tools and that Marrone can make chicken cordon bleu out of it. They may or may not still believe that.

 

But Jeff Tuel is different. He doesn't have those physical tools. And here is where the theory comes in. Whaley waited and waited, and trusted his HC, which GMs must do all the time, but finally said, ok, enough is enough, not only are you not getting chicken cordon bleu out of Tuel, you're not even getting a chicken sandwich from AM/PM, you're getting the chickenschitt you started with, and I'm pulling the plug.

 

That could even explain the Rodak argument tweet.

 

Whaley has been patient with trusting his coach but it just hasnt worked so he pulled rank, made the Orton deal, cut Tuel, etc.

 

This doesn't completely let Whaley off the hook. He made the Thad deal, and he decided, with his HC, not to pursue veterans like Orton in the off season. But he realized that Thad was not cutting it this year and Tuel wasn't either. But the reason that they have been as slow as they have been making the necessary QB changes is Whaley giving his HC the benefit of the doubt.

 

That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Because otherwise Whaley looks clueless about the most important position in football, when he looks very astute in most other areas, as evidenced by his team building.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Kelly the Dog

[GG]

That would make sense if they didn't allegedly start pursuing Orton in early June.

[Kelly the Dog]

That would make sense if they didn't allegedly start pursuing Orton in early June.

I don't necessarily believe that since it would have been tampering. The Cowboys had him under contract until July 16th. That's 6 weeks ago. Other reports say this has been in the works for a month.

[Coach Tuesday]

 

I have a theory. It's total conjecture but it makes sense, at least to me. Ha.

 

Whaley and Marrone are mostly on the same page. Whaley, as GM, has final say on the roster, but like every GM and HC, they have to work very closely with one another on the roster. The best pairings will usually agree the most. It's inevitable that they will sometimes disagree though, and sometimes violently disagree.

 

Marrone made decent chicken salad out of Ryan Nassib in college. He has an ego, like he should and must, and believes in his teaching power, especially offensively. They both agreed on EJ as having all kinds of physical tools and that Marrone can make chicken cordon bleu out of it. They may or may not still believe that.

 

But Jeff Tuel is different. He doesn't have those physical tools. And here is where the theory comes in. Whaley waited and waited, and trusted his HC, which GMs must do all the time, but finally said, ok, enough is enough, not only are you not getting chicken cordon bleu out of Tuel, you're not even getting a chicken sandwich from AM/PM, you're getting the chickenschitt you started with, and I'm pulling the plug.

 

That could even explain the Rodak argument tweet.

 

Whaley has been patient with trusting his coach but it just hasnt worked so he pulled rank, made the Orton deal, cut Tuel, etc.

 

This doesn't completely let Whaley off the hook. He made the Thad deal, and he decided, with his HC, not to pursue veterans like Orton in the off season. But he realized that Thad was not cutting it this year and Tuel wasn't either. But the reason that they have been as slow as they have been making the necessary QB changes is Whaley giving his HC the benefit of the doubt.

 

That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Because otherwise Whaley looks clueless about the most important position in football, when he looks very astute in most other areas, as evidenced by his team building.

 

At what point does Whaley start to become concerned that none of the offensive personnel are developing under DM?

[GG]

I don't necessarily believe that since it would have been tampering. The Cowboys had him under contract until July 16th. That's 6 weeks ago. Other reports say this has been in the works for a month.

 

Could be, but not to derail the point. A lot of ills would have been avoided with better foresight.

 

At what point does Whaley start to become concerned that none of the offensive personnel are developing under DM?

 

When Cordy Glenn starts to play like Jerry Crafts.

[Thunderstealer]

--Great 2013 off season

--Great 2013 draft

-- Not bad 2013 season all thing considered

--Good 2014 early FA period

--Whaley loses his mind and uses 2 first rounders on a pass catcher

--Crazy QB situation currently--although the resigning of Tuel makes me feel a little better.

[Kelly the Dog]

At what point does Whaley start to become concerned that none of the offensive personnel are developing under DM?

He has had one year. His first as a HC. His first three QBs got hurt, his two RBs were hurt (his star most of the year), his only good WR was hurt the whole year, his TE was on one leg, and a few OL got hurt.

 

I'm going to see what he can do this year.

[Captain Caveman]

I'd be willing to bet that Orton did not want to play in the preseason. Tim Graham tweeted they have been trying to sign him for months

 

If that's any indication of his commitment to football right now that's unfortunate.

 

 

 

 

I do what I feel like

 

Edited September 1, 2014 by Captain Caveman

[Kelly the Dog]

Could be, but not to derail the point. A lot of ills would have been avoided with better foresight.

No question about that. I didn't believe in the no veteran competition for EJ during OTAs and training camp and it backfired. That said, Orton now was probably better than they could have got. The only two decent choices in the off season as a backup were Vick and McCown, and neither are better than Orton and both wanted chances at starting jobs which is why they chose who they did. But still, even if my conjecture were to be true, it's still unconscionable for me to see how he or Marrone could not see the failings of Tuel.

 

Thad, who knows what happened to him. He played decent, not good, under the circumstances, but one could not have foreseen that he would regress so much with an off season.

 

If that's any indication of his commitment to football that's unfortunate.

He wanted an opportunity to start. He waited to see if one were to arise.

[JohnC]

He absolutely did come in for an injured #1, that is how he got the job. Flynn hurt his shoulder or elbow, and Wilson played game #3 in preseason, and that's when they realized his height wasn't going to affect him. In fact, it was an amazing call by Carroll to just start him in the regular season opener. I bet 90% of the coaches would have gone back to their 25m FA starter.

 

You are missing WEO's point. The team that didn't have such a critical need for a qb because of the Flynn acquisition drafts a qb in the third round while the Bills who had a desperate need for a qb not only doesn't take the talented qb who was short but instead moves up to draft a "track" receiver in the same round who ends up being cut after two years of ineffective play..

 

Nix had three years to address the qb issue. He claimed that it was more important to upgrade the roster before addressing the qb issue. Then in the year he was leaving he was determined to find his qb in a draft year in which it was a weak qb class. In my view he got the roster rebuilding process backward. The priortiy for any franchise, rebuilding or not, is to make it a priority from day one to get a legitimate franchise qb. If a prospect doesn't work out then you continue with your search. Aggressiveness, not passibity is the approach to take when seeking to change the trajectory of a historically dismal franchise upward.

 

The point is that one organization (Seattle) made multiple attempts to upgrade and find their franchise qb while another franchise (Buffalo} took a more passive approach in finding their franchise qb. The results speak for itself.

[Kelly the Dog]

You are missing WEO's point. The team that didn't have such a critical need for a qb because of the Flynn acquisition drafts a qb in the third round while the Bills who had a desperate need for a qb not only doesn't take the talented qb who was short but instead moves up to draft a "track" receiver in the same round who ends up being cut after two years of ineffective play..

 

Nix had three years to address the qb issue. He claimed that it was more important to upgrade the roster before addressing the qb issue. Then in the year he was leaving he was determined to find his qb in a draft year in which it was a weak qb class. In my view he got the roster rebuilding process backward. The priortiy for any franchise, rebuilding or not, is to make it a priority from day one to get a legitimate franchise qb. If a prospect doesn't work out then you continue with your search. Aggressiveness, not passibity is the approach to take when seeking to change the trajectory of a historically dismal franchise upward.

 

The point is that one organization (Seattle) made multiple attempts to upgrade and find their franchise qb while another franchise (Buffalo} took a more passive approach in finding their franchise qb. The results speak for itself.

I didnt miss the point, I specifically addressed WEO's point and refuted it. I already agreed 100 times that we have screwed up the QB position by not drafting players including Russell Wilson, whom I wanted, and drafting a series of terrible players.

[Coach Tuesday]

He has had one year. His first as a HC. His first three QBs got hurt, his two RBs were hurt (his star most of the year), his only good WR was hurt the whole year, his TE was on one leg, and a few OL got hurt.

 

I'm going to see what he can do this year.

 

I can respect that, but it's hard not to look around the league with envy at what other first year coaches did with their rosters. McCoy turned around Rivers. Trestman got a career year out of McCown and made Jeffrey, Forte and Marshall into a highly potent offense. Look at what Chip Kelly did with Foles. Heck, Bruce Arians got the Cardinals to play competitive football for the first time in years. Andy Reid took the Chiefs from worst to playoffs and figured out how to maximize Alex Smith's strengths and minimize his (many) weaknesses.

 

What shocks me about Marrone is how many vets somehow flunked out of his first offseason program. Branch and Lewis flopped right off of the boat; Urbik nearly did the same. These guys were being counted on this season. Marrone never figured out how to use TJ Graham. He couldn't coach up Tuel. Despite being a former tight ends coach, we haven't seen any of our tight ends look like starter-caliber players. I just don't get the sense that the program is working, but I agree with you it's too early to tell for sure. I do trust Whaley to figure it out before I do, one way or another, because that guy does not mess around with incompetence. If I'm right about Marrone, Whaley won't hesitate to pull the trigger. I just hope he gets the chance under new ownership, because I like the guy and I think he'll be a great GM someday.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Coach Tuesday

[PlayoffsPlease]

In the entire Nix/Whaley era only two draft picks play better than what one would expect from their draft position. Cordy Glenn, and Kiko Alonso. That is it. People over rate Whaley because their benchmark is the NFL's worst front office from 1999 to 2010, OBD. Until the Bills win a playoff game Whaley is at best unproven.

 

 

Edited to add: to be fair, S. Henderson should probably be added to this list.

Edited September 1, 2014 by PlayoffsPlease

[Kelly the Dog]

I can respect that, but it's hard not to look around the league with envy at what other first year coaches did with their rosters. McCoy turned around Rivers. Trestman got a career year out of McCown and made Jeffrey, Forte and Marshall into a highly potent offense. Look at what Chip Kelly did with Foles. Heck, Bruce Arians got the Cardinals to play competitive football for the first time in years.

 

What shocks me about Marrone is how many vets somehow flunked out of his first offseason program. Branch and Lewis flopped right off of the boat; Urbik nearly did the same. These guys were being counted on this season. Marrone never figured out how to use TJ Graham. He couldn't coach up Tuel. Despite being a former tight ends coach, we haven't seen any of our tight ends look like starter-caliber players. I just don't get the sense that the program is working, but I agree with you it's too early to tell for sure. I do trust Whaley to figure it out before I do, one way or another, because that guy does not mess around with incompetence. If I'm right about Marrone, Whaley won't hesitate to pull the trigger. I just hope he gets the chance under new ownership, because I like the guy and I think he'll be a great GM someday.

You're a great poster and I respect your opinion. It's just too early to know. Foles sucked his first year. Kelly is a near genius but I doubt he could have got Foles to play that way as a rookie. NO ONE could have coaches TJ and Tuel up, neither of them has NFL football skills. I dont think there is any HC or OC in the league that could have done a good job with the Bills last year considering what happened to the team.

 

I hate to use injuries as an excuse but they were an indisputable fact and enormous factor, and if you simply take those player-games out of anyone's lineup on any team, including the Seahawks, you don't go 8-8.

[thewildrabbit]

Seems more desperation than a clue towards making a better team. Most of us here bemoaned the shortcomings of Thad/Tuel/Graham/Legurski/Manuel throughout the off-season. Nothing was done except to dump them all but EJ yesterday. And, it must be said, we had an extra week of practice and an extra game in preseason to sort out what we already knew..

 

Not bad, but not good.

 

Then again, what do we know..

Desperation seems appropriate. Cutting both backup QB's, and the punter a week before the season opener.

 

This same front office. Last off season most fans were also bemoaning the replacements for LG Andy Levitre, and those two were cut after week six. The defense had an equal opportunity screw up with backup CB Justin Rodgers who basically lost a single game all by himself, who was also outright cut.

 

 

This is like Jauron firing his OC two weeks before the opener. Cutting his starting RT because he couldn't get to the line quickly enough for the team to run the no huddle, and then scrapping the no huddle after a few games.

 

This is like Gailey naming a starting QB in preseason, allowing him the majority of the reps all thru training camp and then cutting him after two regular season games. The backup QB's didn't get enough reps, and the result was an 0-8 start.

 

So, while Orton might have more then just the three days given Jordan Palmer... I still suspect he will have great difficulty in being up to par with running the offense if he needs to make a start soon. I wouldn't be shocked to see a performance worse the Palmer's as I've seen what happens to backups who don't get enough reps. This guy can't possibly know the play call terminology, have any timing down with the receivers, or be able to run more then a handful of simple plays of hand offs to the RB's.

 

Who knows what to expect from the two punters recently added, another Shawn Powell performance only to be cut after the Cleveland game?

 

 

I suppose one can say better late then never for Tuel, Lewis, TJ Graham, Legursky experiments. But then, why were they brought in, or drafted in the first place? All these mistakes the last two years just reminds me of the moves of previous lame coaching staffs.

 

While this off season I heartily applaud the additions of a QB coach, a senior offensive assistant. The drafting of the three O linemen, and the fact that the Bills may have found a diamond in the 7th round for the RT position. I also question the LG & RG positions, and how long will it take to actually upgrade to potential decent long term starters. Cyril Richardson might defy the odds of a 5th rounder and become a viable starter. That still leaves the hole that is still there since Levitre left last off season.

 

 

After watching the embarrassment of this years preseason games I'm at a loss as what to expect from this team in the opening game. I can honestly say I don't if Bills OC Nate Hackett really has everything under control, and will shock us with play calling that makes first downs, and puts his players into positions to make plays. If the O line actually give the RB's some holes to run thru, and will they manage to protect the QB long enough to allow him to make some down field throws. Will the QB be in sync with the receivers enough to complete those throws. Will this years version of the hurry up offense become more then the "hurry up and punt offense" of last year?

 

The defensive side of the ball should be fine, and we can expect to see a top ten unit. That is of course if the offense can stay on the field and finish drives. So that the defensive unit doesn't need to be on the field the majority of the game, and become worn down by the 4th quarter.

 

 

Hey, at least the FO recognized they had flaws, and although some of these moves happened a bit late in the off season. All I can do as a Bills fan is hope it all works out, and this years team wins more games then it loses.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

Looking foward to a new organizational directive in 2015.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Always repeat.

[thewildrabbit]

About Doug Whaley.

 

I do believe the man knows the defensive side of the ball, and if we graded him solely on just that side he would get a solid - A . The minus part for the Justin Rodgers move.

 

On the other side of the ball he could very well be trying to lean on Marrone's / Hackett's expertise or simply asking them to help with selections. Otherwise some of his moves have been very questionable.

 

Nevertheless, Replacing Levitre for the 2013 season with Colin Brown-Sam Young at OG were both completely wasted roster spots, and both gone by week 6. Now this year Chris Williams to replace Levitre, really? Levitre ended his 2012 season with a grade at (+17.3), and Williams ended his season in St Louis with a grade of (-21.8) Which is actually worse then Legursky, and how he performs in Buffalo remains to be seen.

 

The selection of Cyrus Kouandjio at #2 and Seantrel Henderson at #7 look like those two picks could be switched with Cujo not even making the roster or PS if he were the 7th rounder.

 

It looks to me that some at OBD have no clue as to what they are looking at when it comes to the O line. Nix for certain had no clue about the QB position in passing over Colin Kaepernick, Russell Wilson, or even Andy Dalton when the team was desperate for a franchise guy. Then there is the issue with the punters, and why is it so difficult to find a decent punter? Two years now.

 

The TE position keeps getting ignored or overlooked. Chandler might have led the team last year with 53 receptions. That ranking makes him the 60th best receiver, and 11th best TE. Now that wouldn't be so bad if the guy wasn't a liability on the field as a blocker.

 

Then the WR position. No question the fan base loves Sammy Watkins, and he should give instant credibility to the receiving corps this year. But was he really worth a 2015 first round, and a 2015 4th rounder? Will he become a better player then Odell Beckham Jr taken by the NY Giants at #12 or better then Brandin Cooks taken by the Saints at #20, or better then Kelvin Benjamin taken by Carloina at #28. Should they have gone after the taller Mike Evans taken by Tampa at #7 or kept those picks, and gone after a TE instead?

The big question is will EJ be able to make use of all that talent of Sammy's?

 

I gotta say the torches will be lit, and pitchforks raised should Cleveland get the #1 overall from Buffalo next year...

[Cal Bill's Fan]

I would expect some signings from the many cuts made today. Bills OL and tight ends could use an upgrade and several experienced starters were cut. To me another indication of a JV FO playing in a varsity league.

[infernus]

 

dude seems to either have a 40 or a bottle of jack in his hands on every off-the-field photo made public. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that..

Edited September 1, 2014 by infernus

[Kelly the Dog]

 

dude seems to either have a 40 or a bottle of jack in his hands on every off-the-field photo made public. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that..

I'm not a very religious sort, but God is Great.