DC Tom Posted January 30, 2005 Posted January 30, 2005 hoooo it's true the US governement has been very very tough with China those last years.... this post is really funny, in France we have an expression for that "L'hopital se fout de la Charité" something i could translate into something like: "the blind having fun of the deaf" 222982[/snapback] The US government isn't actively pursuing closer military ties with China for the stated intent of threatening the French, however...
olivier in france Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 The US government isn't actively pursuing closer military ties with China for the stated intent of threatening the French, however... 223086[/snapback] ....like Chirac is planning the 4th world war and the invasion of the US with China !! what's in the water in your town?!! Looks like powerful stuff!
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 ....like Chirac is planning the 4th world war and the invasion of the US with China !! what's in the water in your town?!! Looks like powerful stuff! 223585[/snapback] He's got you there, O... trying to isolate the U.S. via China is NOT a smart idea!!! It may not be a World War III idea, but it is dangerous nonetheless.. Pretty soon, FRANCE might be rendered irrelevant in foreign affairs.
olivier in france Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 He's got you there, O... trying to isolate the U.S. via China is NOT a smart idea!!! It may not be a World War III idea, but it is dangerous nonetheless.. Pretty soon, FRANCE might be rendered irrelevant in foreign affairs. 223595[/snapback] the goal is not to isolate the US, the goal is to find a way to make european and asiatic views of the international affairs an alternative to the americans'. Today nothing can be done on this planet without the US OK, it has been an excuse for many industrial powers to let the US solve the World problems for too long and it has been the root of many evils, especially rampant anti-americanism. Asia and Europe are as bid economic powers as North America but they' ve let the US become the World Cop. We have to take our responsabilities and i'm happy France and China can talk together on those issues. And yes it can be only possible if Asia and Europe are credible military powers.
chicot Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 Of course they were in favor of lifting the snctions, because evidence is coming to light that people in high positions were paid very well to lobby to lift the sanctions. But let's wait for all the investigations to complete (if the UN really cooperates). Just as a sidenote, the first US person was recently convicted in the scandal. And yes, regime change was the primary objective of the US government, because they had a pretty good reason to believe that once Saddam lifted the restrictions, he'd be a pretty meddlesome figure in Mid East politics. Your earlier contention that Saddam was no friend of fundamentalists is being proven wrong, as Saddam made links with the extremists to prop up his regime. How do you think this would have played out over the next 5 years? BTW, was that you I just saw dancing in the streets when the news showed a crowd of expat Iraqis dancing at Wembley polling station? 223027[/snapback] Nope If I was going to vote, it would have been in Manchester. Although I am eligible to vote because my father is Iraqi, to be honest, I don't really think it is right that I have equal rights with someone in Iraq who has to live with these decisions when I do not. Whatever France's reason for opposing sanctions, the fact remains that they did oppose them and therefore blaming them for the effects of the sanctions seems pretty illogical, which is my original point. As for Saddam being friends with fundamentalists, I'm not as sure as you seem to be that this question has been clearly answered. I've lost track of the number of congressional reports, intelligence reports etc that concluded a) that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 and b) had no working relationship with Al-Qaeda. Even if he did invite militants into the country to help fight against a US invasion (which is what I presume you are referring to), this is a far cry from sending them out to countries to commit acts of terrorism, which would probably be most people's concern. I think that the US would have had a very hard time indeed selling the invasion of Iraq on the grounds that Saddam was inviting fundamentalists into Iraq to defend against a possible invasion.
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 the goal is not to isolate the US, the goal is to find a way to make european and asiatic views of the international affairs an alternative to the americans'. Today nothing can be done on this planet without the US OK, it has been an excuse for many industrial powers to let the US solve the World problems for too long and it has been the root of many evils, especially rampant anti-americanism. Asia and Europe are as bid economic powers as North America but they' ve let the US become the World Cop. We have to take our responsabilities and i'm happy France and China can talk together on those issues. And yes it can be only possible if Asia and Europe are credible military powers. 223615[/snapback] It isa question of WHAT that alternative is... is it disagreeing just for the sake of it, or is it for world improvement? So far, I'd say the record of France and China does NOT match up to our record of responsible actions. Sure, we may have jumped into this Iraqi War business, but it STILL doesn't even begin to even things out. You would have to agree that the record of France had been a very spotted one, and if seeking an 'alternative' means going into the arms of CHINA, a country with a horrible human rights record that stifles countries like Taiwan, then you will catch hell later, and it won't be pretty. I'm just giving you my opinion on this matter... The EU will fracture if France goes its own way in this case. Britain will NEVER support such a wide open cooperation with China... they remember all too well what happened with the USSR.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 "Bad Yanks, Bad. We know better, we'll tell you what to do."I find it better than some english telling you "Good Yanks, you have the worst ideas in the world to fight terrorism so we'll go with you whatever you do!" 222488[/snapback] Well at least we know who our friends are. The French, going back to the "no-flyover to Libya" days under Reagan have been nothing but an obstacle to the cause of freedom.
chicot Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 Well at least we know who our friends are. The French, going back to the "no-flyover to Libya" days under Reagan have been nothing but an obstacle to the cause of freedom. 223632[/snapback] I could be wrong on this, but I seem to remember that France were not alone on this. I think Spain also refused to allow the US jets entry into their airspace.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 I could be wrong on this, but I seem to remember that France were not alone on this. I think Spain also refused to allow the US jets entry into their airspace. 223670[/snapback] France=Continental Europe. BTW, did you vote?
chicot Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 France=Continental Europe. BTW, did you vote? 223679[/snapback] No. My earlier post in this thread explains why not.
olivier in france Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 It isa question of WHAT that alternative is... is it disagreeing just for the sake of it, or is it for world improvement? So far, I'd say the record of France and China does NOT match up to our record of responsible actions. Sure, we may have jumped into this Iraqi War business, but it STILL doesn't even begin to even things out. You would have to agree that the record of France had been a very spotted one, and if seeking an 'alternative' means going into the arms of CHINA, a country with a horrible human rights record that stifles countries like Taiwan, then you will catch hell later, and it won't be pretty. I'm just giving you my opinion on this matter... The EU will fracture if France goes its own way in this case. Britain will NEVER support such a wide open cooperation with China... they remember all too well what happened with the USSR. 223627[/snapback] The leadership and actions of France is recent or older issues like Haiti, Ivory Coast, Bosnia, Lebannon, Tchad, The first Golf war make its record lot better than most other european or asian nations. France has been firm on the Taiwan issue with China. Taiwan has bought a lot of french weapons those last decades (French Fregates anyone?!!) The EU will not fracture, maybe the UK will just leave the EU one day (i'm sad about it but maybe DeGaulle was right it was a mistke to welcome the UK in the EU)
olivier in france Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 Well at least we know who our friends are. The French, going back to the "no-flyover to Libya" days under Reagan have been nothing but an obstacle to the cause of freedom. 223632[/snapback] please don't mix as americans always do the cause of the USA and the cause of freedom.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 please don't mix as americans always do the cause of the USA and the cause of freedom. 223861[/snapback] Oh, that's right. Because only a citizen of a former COLONIAL POWER would think that the USA's history and orientation is not the cause of freedom. OK.
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 The leadership and actions of France is recent or older issues like Haiti, Ivory Coast, Bosnia, Lebannon, Tchad, The first Golf war make its record lot better than most other european or asian nations. France has been firm on the Taiwan issue with China. Taiwan has bought a lot of french weapons those last decades (French Fregates anyone?!!) The EU will not fracture, maybe the UK will just leave the EU one day (i'm sad about it but maybe DeGaulle was right it was a mistke to welcome the UK in the EU) 223857[/snapback] If Great Britain continues supporting our current government and ones like it in the future, it is assured. Sooner or later China will WANT some compensation, and what do you think that will be? No interference in Taiwanese affairs... no assistance. Is France prepared to give in to the Chinese on the back of a longing to be free Taiwan?? Hence the dilemma... Chirac has NO idea, I guess! All I'm, saying is that France is making a lot of people angry these days, a lot of different groups...
Alaska Darin Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 well you know France is the country of the 500 kinds of cheeses, come visit me one of these days i have always some good ones for friends... and they're much better here than the ones we sent to the US, the FDA ask the producers to pasteurize them before sending them to America, and once pasteurized the cheese can not get better as it gets older like it normally does.. 222519[/snapback] You have to have alot - to go with all the whining.
olivier in france Posted February 1, 2005 Posted February 1, 2005 You have to have alot - to go with all the whining. 223963[/snapback] he Darin the so called "libertarian", if you think it's fine your administration decides what's good for your stomach i think you're a fraud to your political etiquette
olivier in france Posted February 1, 2005 Posted February 1, 2005 Oh, that's right. Because only a citizen of a former COLONIAL POWER would think that the USA's history and orientation is not the cause of freedom. OK. 223868[/snapback] a lot here 'd say France is a former colonial power and the US are a colonial power... but i don't go that far. and don't try to make me ashamed of my history, i know it very well the good parts and the bad parts but my passeport does not make me responsible for either parts. What your statement means? that only americans are good enough to be able to have an opinion on american history? what an arrogance! Now if you can tell me where was the freedom cause in USA history chapters like the help to Pinochet, the support to Noriega, the planned straving of the Cuban and Irakis peoples, the blind bombing of Lybia, the Wounded Knee massacre or the Patriot Act vote i'll be glad to read your arguments. There is no country in this world that can be proud of 100% of its history. You can be proud to be an american, because the US history has much more glorious than dubious episodes but please don't tell me you're the perfect white knights and that any opposition to the decisions made by an US governement is an oppostion to the "cause of freedom". or even worse (because i've heard it too) to the will of God (in God YOU trust, that does not mean God trust the USA to make this world better!!).
Alaska Darin Posted February 1, 2005 Posted February 1, 2005 he Darin the so called "libertarian", if you think it's fine your administration decides what's good for your stomach i think you're a fraud to your political etiquette 224713[/snapback] Tell me again why I'm supposed to give a crap about what ANYONE here thinks about my politics? I'll be anxiously awaiting an answer. In related news, anyone seen RCow lately? You know, that doer of good deeds and upstanding Democrat who declared victory about 22.4 seconds after the first poll opened...
olivier in france Posted February 1, 2005 Posted February 1, 2005 If Great Britain continues supporting our current government and ones like it in the future, it is assured. Sooner or later China will WANT some compensation, and what do you think that will be? No interference in Taiwanese affairs... no assistance. Is France prepared to give in to the Chinese on the back of a longing to be free Taiwan?? Hence the dilemma... Chirac has NO idea, I guess! All I'm, saying is that France is making a lot of people angry these days, a lot of different groups... 223888[/snapback] what does China want? do you really think Taiwan is so important for them? i don't. They want to make business. we'll make business. They want to be heard on the international scene, we'll listen. France making people angry? Great news!! do you think Chirac cares? do you think frenchmen care? as i said here before, that's something americans and frenchmen have in common, they are arrogant enough no to care what other people think about them. Anyway those last 2 years i think anti-americanism has grown much more than francophobia in this world.
Alaska Darin Posted February 1, 2005 Posted February 1, 2005 Anyway those last 2 years i think anti-americanism has grown much more than francophobia in this world. 224720[/snapback] Few fear what they don't respect.
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