EJ and an excellent dissection of what happened against Tampa

[BigBuff423]

 

That may or may not be true, if I ever said he was gifted, which I didn't.

 

The termed gifted is also often, if not most often, used to describe god-given physical attributes and skills, and not intangibles. You are not usually "gifted" with accuracy although you usually have it or you don't. EJ is gifted with great size and athletic ability and arm strength.

 

I think Playoffs Please confused our two posts in response to his, maybe? I used the term gifted and described in much the same way you did, so while he technically quoted and responded to you, I think he focused on my use of the word "gifted" but you defended my point fairly well and agree. So, basically: ditto.

[yungmack]

"EJ sucked at FSU, sucked so far in Bufflow, will suck forever and ever amen." That sums up a certain group of posters opinions on EJ.

 

So, okay, coming out of FSU, what was the consensus on him? That he had great size, great hands, a ton of athletic ability, a drive to succeed, a hard-worker, intelligent, but that he was a raw talent that needed work and time and patience to develop into a top QB. The Bills themselves acknowledged this. But due to circumstances, he was forced into action before much in the way of "training him up" for the starting job could be done. Then he got hurt, yadda yadda yadda. Now he's got 10 starts under his belt, one focused off season and TC. His partisans, including his teammates, say he's made great strides. His critics say he hasn't.

 

Here's what I think, particularly after listening to Kelso: EJ has spent a lot of time correcting and improving certain fundamentals. For now, in preseason, he's thinking his way through those lessons rather than just letting it rip. In other words, he's training his body's "muscle memory" in a conscious way which, we and he hope, will become second nature by or at least during the regular season. With those improvements in his game now internalized, he will then "let it rip" automatically. Then we should see the kid from FSU with all that raw talent, now more polished, fulfilling all that promise. That at least is the hope and the plan. And I for one would like to focus on the positive side instead of the negative because I honestly believe there really is more upside than down in him.

[John from Riverside]

The bottom line is "realists" will dismiss it.......and fans who are trying to find the positive will take it as way to legitimize their opinion.......

 

It wont sway anyone sitting firmly on one side of the fence to go to the other

 

Me? I am of the firm believe that as long as most of the offense is doing THEIR jobs....EJ is gonna look good.....and as time goes on EJ is going to take more and more of the responsibility on his shoulders to make the team look good.

 

He has that kind of talent

[BillsVet]

Me? I am of the firm believe that as long as most of the offense is doing THEIR jobs....EJ is gonna look good.....and as time goes on EJ is going to take more and more of the responsibility on his shoulders to make the team look good.

 

He has that kind of talent

 

If the play call is right for the situation, each receiver runs the right route and great protection, the QB can still destroy the play for a variety of reasons. Misreading the defense, a bad throw, failure to feel the rush, etc. I saw throws in last year's TB game that were dreadful...and he wasn't under pressure.

 

EJ has a lot of potential and athletic ability. Whether he brings it all together is another matter entirely.

[Buffaloed in Pa]

He played against the 2nd string ? Yeah that`s what happened.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I don't know how anyone can listen to the level of detail that Kelso put into his analysis and surmise that he's just a paid mouthpiece for the Bills whose opinions don't matter. Of course, this is coming from the kinds of people who say that EJ doesn't pass the eye test, who say that he doesn't have "it," and look for every piece of intangible nonsense under the sun to validate their opinions. I have far more respect for someone who looks at Kelso's analysis and argues that it's going to be very difficult for him to correct what he isn't doing right, or that he doesn't unleash his athleticism enough.

[Mike in Syracuse]

 

 

Your trying to hard. By NFL standards EJ is not "gifted", unless you are saying the 20 QBs who have had far more demonstrated success at the NFL level are also gifted.

 

Please name for me the 20 QB's who have performed better over their 1st 10 games.

 

There are a number of hall of fame quarterbacks who were statistically worse so I'd love to see your list.

[John from Riverside]

Please name for me the 20 QB's who have performed better over their 1st 10 games.

 

There are a number of hall of fame quarterbacks who were statistically worse so I'd love to see your list.

 

Yes this should be good.

 

If the play call is right for the situation, each receiver runs the right route and great protection, the QB can still destroy the play for a variety of reasons. Misreading the defense, a bad throw, failure to feel the rush, etc. I saw throws in last year's TB game that were dreadful...and he wasn't under pressure.

 

EJ has a lot of potential and athletic ability. Whether he brings it all together is another matter entirely.

 

Well since he really isnt showing any of these problems we should be ok then.....most of the miscues from this past game came from receivers not being where they were supposed to be and pressure right in his face.

 

And last years TB game was last years......you know when he was a often injured rookie quarterback?

[BillsFan17]

 

 

I have no idea why this gets repeated with some level of frequency around these parts. It's simply not true.

 

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2013/3/7/4076876/mike-mayock-moves-ej-manuel-to-number-two-on-his-qb-board

 

(won't allow Bleacher Report link, so Google "why-florida-state-qb-ej-manuel-will-be-the-first-taken")

 

http://www.phillymag.com/birds247/2013/04/24/draft-buzz-ej-manuel-on-the-rise/

I don't get it either, fans regurgitate that all the time for one reason or another. The fact is Manuel had higher clout in legit nfl circles more so than the media.

 

I fore one never knew why so many fans put so much stock into media rankings anyways.

[dave mcbride]

Great link; thanks for posting.

[SJDK]

This will be a big play offense if the offensive line lives up to there potential. It's on them and EJ. If you rewatch that game, you will see just how much their penaltys and poor pass protection hurt us and negated good plays. Kelso is right on about everything he said. The offense is vanilla by design, they are keeping a lot of stuff close to the vest. I think we will be in for a good suprise week 1. I also can guarantee you that the chicago recieving crew will make big plays on us. EJ will throw it down the field if they split Watkins, and Goodwin to opposite sides and run go routes. I think they will do that a lot this year and dump it off to the other guys underneath. For that to work the Line has to be better and EJ has to "just throw it".

[Doc]

Good to see that Kelso saw what I did. But although it gives me less worry about EJ, the poor execution of the offense as a whole is more troubling. As is the play-calling, although I'll agree to chalk it up to it being pre-season.

[PlayoffsPlease]

For logical arguments sake lets stipulate that the Bills play calling against first teams all preseason was "vanilla".

 

But this does NOT mean

 

If "first team using vanilla plays fails" then "first team using NOT vanilla succeeds"

 

We simply don't know what will happen when the first team moves away from the Vanilla offense. We are left with the classic Bills fans option "hope"

[Captain Caveman]

Great listening. But I'd add that Marrone complicates the picture well coloured by Kelso... Marrone on offense during TV interview before halftime: "We're really playing awful."

 

Three turnovers in one half is awful. How is that complicating things?

[Kelly the Dog]

For logical arguments sake lets stipulate that the Bills play calling against first teams all preseason was "vanilla".

 

But this does NOT mean

 

If "first team using vanilla plays fails" then "first team using NOT vanilla succeeds"

 

We simply don't know what will happen when the first team moves away from the Vanilla offense. We are left with the classic Bills fans option "hope"

It also doesn't mean they suck, or the person calling the plays sucks.

 

The facts are, the Bills havent had one play where their starting offense was together, they haven't really game planned once, they havent shown their offense once.

 

The other facts are, they haven't played well, they havent executed well, they haven't beaten the guy across from them consistently, there is cause to be concern they may not during the regular season, too.

 

The other facts are (or near facts if you're a nitpickdick), they have a nice amount of talent at the skill positions, they have a few very good looking OL and some hope for some more, they have a first round QB with a lot of talent and erratic play, and little experience, who needs to show he can play competently over a full season, let alone good.

[BackInDaDay]

I still think EJ and can turn this around, but everything Kelso said confirms my opinion - following the game - on where he's at - and why...

 

"In an effort to develop a pocket passing pro from an option QB collegian, they've replaced whatever natural play making skills he has with a set of rules - reinforced throughout the spring and summer - resulting in the mechanical man wearing #3 who looks little like the athlete they drafted. I'm not familiar with his FSU days, but i doubt EJ would have reached national attention had he played like this for the Seminoles.

 

They've installed a clock in his head by timing his footwork to the routes, and when it hits 4 the ball is coming out - which is fine - wexcept that he starts looking for his safety valve at 3. Look at the numbers.. I find it hard to believe that our talented WRs were draped by TB defenders on 13 of 18 pass plays (i'm counting 5 passes to the RBs and TEs as set plays). My biggest concern is that's how it still looks to EJ when he gets to 3. He has little confidence throwing deep routes, or he's had it drummed out of him - that and the running."

 

Here's the thing.. he has to find the confidence that the mid-to-deep routes will be there.. that he's made a good assessment of what the defense can do to defend where he wants to go with the ball.. that the rush is accounted for.. and that he can let the play develop before quitting on it in after 3 seconds. He's obviously very coachable, but it's easy to suppress a player's instincts and aggression by concentrating too long and hard on techniques. Thankfully, that ends after this week.

[Hplarrm]

I strongly suggest you re-read the first article you cited. There, it mentions the fact that EJ is considered a project.

 

The Mayock reassessment that prompted the re-evaluation summary of several pundit views does as you point out correctly labels EJ as a project.

 

However, I think it also correctly (c0mpared to the other QBs available in a lackluster year for QB draft talent) summarizes a few weeks before many pundits had EJ in the 4th round, but the concensus of pundit views had re-evaluated (as often happens with showcases like the Senior Bowl and the Combine that EJ was clearly a legit 2nd round pick. Further, if Mayock (not a professional scout but a guy who clearly got a lot more right than he got wrong in his articles had actually dubbed EJ the #2 to Geno Smith among QBs in the draft.

 

I think that was about right also.

 

Overall, the article asks the question looking at the Eagles situation or whether it in fact made more sense for them to take the project EJ in the 1st because the QB draft class was so weak.

 

I think that this strikes me as a pretty sound assessment of the situation. The Bills agreed with this assessment and decided that:

 

1. Given Fitzy's implosion, the Bills needed to find at least one (and I think true from a football rather than a fan-based view) QBs.

2. No quality QBs were available to the Bills in the FA market

3. The bills needed to draft the best prospect available to them.

4. It was a lousy draft and if you wanna guarantee you get 1 if the 2 best QB PROJECTS in this draft you watch and when 1 (Smith or EJ) gets taken you do what you have to get the other. If both are still on the board when you pick then trade down.

 

I think this was the right strategy to pursue.

 

The bottomline is this.

 

A: Yes EJ is a project as you point out. However, in this weak QB class every pick was a project. The real ? is whether EJ, Geno, or someone else was the best project.

 

B: A project is gonna take at least 2 seasons and more likely 3 before he is good enough to carry and lead the team.

 

c: Even though its gonna be 2 or 3 seasons before EJ is good enough to lead, can the Bills still compete for the playoffs with mere so-so play from EJ?

 

Sure, if the rest of the TEAM is good enuf.

 

The Bills braintrust knew full well that EJ was the best PROJECT available in his draft (not hard actually as all you needed was to have more upside than Geno Smith).

 

Almost every rookie needs 3 seasons before you can reasonably declare him a bust or a star. The Bills braintrust had to know this was true of EJ as well.

 

Its really only us panicky fans that demand a playoff caliber performance from a rookie or even a second year player.

 

The question for the Bills braintrust (and anyone with half a football brain or who doesn't make money being a pro whiner like Shoop or Sully) is NOT whether EJ would be good enough in his first or even second year to carry his team to the playoffs.

 

HE WILL NOT.

 

He is a project and it is stupid for anyone to expect him to be that good that quick (I and other Bills fans hope he will be the next Jimbo immediately but even though that is my hope I am not stupid enough to expect that to actually happen.).

 

The question for the Bills braintrust was whether they could make the rest of the TEAM good enough to compete for the playoffs with a PROJECT who needs at least two full seasons to become the QB we want to develop.

 

Even this is a longshot but I have to give Merrone/#haley credit for a nice try (but already there are some tough breaks and challenges.

 

It seemed to me the plan to carry a developing inconsistent EJ "led" team to a playoff berth was:

 

1. Build a dominant D- Got off to a great start last year with a record setting season for sacks and having 3 of the DL make the Pro Bowl and the 4th DL guy this year had double digit sacks. They lost Byrd but really have assembled us two deep at the other DB positions with good drafting, player development and pick-ups. The LBs gave up some big runs but the pick--up of Spikes allowing the, top switch the speedy Kiko outside looked great until the unfortunate Kiko ACL. Still should be good but we will see.

 

2. Use solid RBs Jax and CJ, but get back-ups because we will be lucky to have them both finish the season. Pick-up of Byrce Brown and development of Summers and even a #4 RB looks very good.

 

3. Build a solid OL- Not yet I am afraid as the best need to develop chemistry, but the individual parts with 4 guys with credible starting tackle talent and a cast of guys a couple of starting Gs need t o step up is a nice idea. We will see how it works.

 

4. Build a great WR brigade- If Watkins is as good as advertised (he sure practices good), Woods continues to develop like he did as a rookie and as EJs go-to guy so far in pre-season and 1st round physical talent with an 8th round brain Williams gets it together in this last chance ths threesome can be foreboding.

 

5. They got some potential good ST talent in FA and the draft, but need to show that they can coach well enough which they have not to date.

 

With a lot of luck I like what they have done which is the only thing which reasonably they can do with EJ who ALWAYS was seen as a PROJECT a couple of years away from being good enough to carry this team if they want to be competitive for a playoff spot this year.

 

Wish us luck as luck was ALWAYS this team's best option unless you have some reasonable alternative plan you want to share.

 

 

 

[Hazed and Amuzed]

 

 

The Mayock reassessment that prompted the re-evaluation summary of several pundit views does as you point out correctly labels EJ as a project.

 

However, I think it also correctly (c0mpared to the other QBs available in a lackluster year for QB draft talent) summarizes a few weeks before many pundits had EJ in the 4th round, but the concensus of pundit views had re-evaluated (as often happens with showcases like the Senior Bowl and the Combine that EJ was clearly a legit 2nd round pick. Further, if Mayock (not a professional scout but a guy who clearly got a lot more right than he got wrong in his articles had actually dubbed EJ the #2 to Geno Smith among QBs in the draft.

 

I think that was about right also.

 

Overall, the article asks the question looking at the Eagles situation or whether it in fact made more sense for them to take the project EJ in the 1st because the QB draft class was so weak.

 

I think that this strikes me as a pretty sound assessment of the situation. The Bills agreed with this assessment and decided that:

 

1. Given Fitzy's implosion, the Bills needed to find at least one (and I think true from a football rather than a fan-based view) QBs.

2. No quality QBs were available to the Bills in the FA market

3. The bills needed to draft the best prospect available to them.

4. It was a lousy draft and if you wanna guarantee you get 1 if the 2 best QB PROJECTS in this draft you watch and when 1 (Smith or EJ) gets taken you do what you have to get the other. If both are still on the board when you pick then trade down.

 

I think this was the right strategy to pursue.

 

The bottomline is this.

 

A: Yes EJ is a project as you point out. However, in this weak QB class every pick was a project. The real ? is whether EJ, Geno, or someone else was the best project.

 

B: A project is gonna take at least 2 seasons and more likely 3 before he is good enough to carry and lead the team.

 

c: Even though its gonna be 2 or 3 seasons before EJ is good enough to lead, can the Bills still compete for the playoffs with mere so-so play from EJ?

 

Sure, if the rest of the TEAM is good enuf.

 

The Bills braintrust knew full well that EJ was the best PROJECT available in his draft (not hard actually as all you needed was to have more upside than Geno Smith).

 

Almost every rookie needs 3 seasons before you can reasonably declare him a bust or a star. The Bills braintrust had to know this was true of EJ as well.

 

Its really only us panicky fans that demand a playoff caliber performance from a rookie or even a second year player.

 

The question for the Bills braintrust (and anyone with half a football brain or who doesn't make money being a pro whiner like Shoop or Sully) is NOT whether EJ would be good enough in his first or even second year to carry his team to the playoffs.

 

HE WILL NOT.

 

He is a project and it is stupid for anyone to expect him to be that good that quick (I and other Bills fans hope he will be the next Jimbo immediately but even though that is my hope I am not stupid enough to expect that to actually happen.).

 

The question for the Bills braintrust was whether they could make the rest of the TEAM good enough to compete for the playoffs with a PROJECT who needs at least two full seasons to become the QB we want to develop.

 

Even this is a longshot but I have to give Merrone/#haley credit for a nice try (but already there are some tough breaks and challenges.

 

It seemed to me the plan to carry a developing inconsistent EJ "led" team to a playoff berth was:

 

1. Build a dominant D- Got off to a great start last year with a record setting season for sacks and having 3 of the DL make the Pro Bowl and the 4th DL guy this year had double digit sacks. They lost Byrd but really have assembled us two deep at the other DB positions with good drafting, player development and pick-ups. The LBs gave up some big runs but the pick--up of Spikes allowing the, top switch the speedy Kiko outside looked great until the unfortunate Kiko ACL. Still should be good but we will see.

 

2. Use solid RBs Jax and CJ, but get back-ups because we will be lucky to have them both finish the season. Pick-up of Byrce Brown and development of Summers and even a #4 RB looks very good.

 

3. Build a solid OL- Not yet I am afraid as the best need to develop chemistry, but the individual parts with 4 guys with credible starting tackle talent and a cast of guys a couple of starting Gs need t o step up is a nice idea. We will see how it works.

 

4. Build a great WR brigade- If Watkins is as good as advertised (he sure practices good), Woods continues to develop like he did as a rookie and as EJs go-to guy so far in pre-season and 1st round physical talent with an 8th round brain Williams gets it together in this last chance ths threesome can be foreboding.

 

5. They got some potential good ST talent in FA and the draft, but need to show that they can coach well enough which they have not to date.

 

With a lot of luck I like what they have done which is the only thing which reasonably they can do with EJ who ALWAYS was seen as a PROJECT a couple of years away from being good enough to carry this team if they want to be competitive for a playoff spot this year.

 

Wish us luck as luck was ALWAYS this team's best option unless you have some reasonable alternative plan you want to share.

 

Excellent post!!! Great insight, however too many "fans" on this site will call it an apologists view. Pragmatically speaking though your post is spot on.

[thebandit27]

I still think EJ and can turn this around, but everything Kelso said confirms my opinion - following the game - on where he's at - and why...

 

"In an effort to develop a pocket passing pro from an option QB collegian, they've replaced whatever natural play making skills he has with a set of rules - reinforced throughout the spring and summer - resulting in the mechanical man wearing #3 who looks little like the athlete they drafted. I'm not familiar with his FSU days, but i doubt EJ would have reached national attention had he played like this for the Seminoles.

 

They've installed a clock in his head by timing his footwork to the routes, and when it hits 4 the ball is coming out - which is fine - wexcept that he starts looking for his safety valve at 3. Look at the numbers.. I find it hard to believe that our talented WRs were draped by TB defenders on 13 of 18 pass plays (i'm counting 5 passes to the RBs and TEs as set plays). My biggest concern is that's how it still looks to EJ when he gets to 3. He has little confidence throwing deep routes, or he's had it drummed out of him - that and the running."

 

Here's the thing.. he has to find the confidence that the mid-to-deep routes will be there.. that he's made a good assessment of what the defense can do to defend where he wants to go with the ball.. that the rush is accounted for.. and that he can let the play develop before quitting on it in after 3 seconds. He's obviously very coachable, but it's easy to suppress a player's instincts and aggression by concentrating too long and hard on techniques. Thankfully, that ends after this week.

 

That's EXACTLY what I saw. A guy that's been coached to get the ball out on 3--and rightly so--that seems to be more comfortable hitting his short reads as opposed to reading from the deeper routes back (as most QBs are coached to do). If he can develop the habit of staying with his deep reads more often I think he'll get a lot better in what appears to be a short period of time.

[Hplarrm]

 

 

That's EXACTLY what I saw. A guy that's been coached to get the ball out on 3--and rightly so--that seems to be more comfortable hitting his short reads as opposed to reading from the deeper routes back (as most QBs are coached to do). If he can develop the habit of staying with his deep reads more often I think he'll get a lot better in what appears to be a short period of time.

 

My sense is that you are right and EJ has some definite fundamental shortcomings in his game. He looks like (and is IMHO) a very talented athlete who actually still has less than a full season of reps due to his injuries last year.

 

I flat out disagree with those who have their panties all up in a wad who want to declare him a bust already and move on. He is not where we would want our QB to be (yet, but EJ was always a project when he was drafted and clearly needs a season or three of reps before he will be the QB we wishhim to be.

 

The question for the Bills competing for the playoffs this year is NOT whether EJ will perform like the leader at QB we want (and deserve as long suffering Bills fans). He almost certainly will NOT play at these levels. This youngster is too inconsistent.

 

However, the Bills can still compete for the playoffs THIS YEAR if:

 

1. The D still puts up the great sack #s they put up last year with the addition of Spikes to stuff the run but with the unfortunate loss of Kiko

2. Sees the RBs remain with upper level production with the addition of Brown as a needed supplement to Jax, CJ

3. Good play developed from a talented OL with no chemistry yet

4. Imposing play from a set of 3 potential frontline WRs

5. Improved performance from the ST which does seem to have better athletes but has not yet shown good enough coaching.

 

If one knows about football and cares about the Bills then you gotta get over our longrunning over fixation on QB play as EJ is a PROJECT who MAY turn into what we want after a year of reps )if we are lucky). EJ is not gonna be good enough this year but if the rest of the TEAM works out and we get lucky we can compete for the playoffs this year!