C.Biscuit97 Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 I realize it's been close to three decades but Buffalo HATED Kelly when he first came there with his third person statements and rash of game losing pics he threw in '86. He was booed off the field in '86. His own linemen were reticent of protecting him when the Jet was "Down, giving him the business". He didn't become a beloved leader until '90. EJ is a kid who hasn't even played a full season. The game clearly hasn't slowwed down for him yet. JUST LIKE Kelly in '86. Chill out. The sky is not falling. Let's see what the regular season holds before we run him out of town. BTW, why did we lose our first AFC Championship with Kelly.....Oh yeah, a pick 6 deep in his end......Just sayin' Stop being reasonable! I knew the second Kelly came here, he was going to be a HOFer (I was only 5 but still!). If I may, the one big difference is Jim played in a league that was a good transition type from college to nfl. Furthermore, Jim demanded perfection from his teammates. No one got off the hook and Jim was an in your face type. Manuel seems to have the head and the drive but doesn't have that edge to him. Seems like more of the other players have that element and it might not be the best route, I always wanted my QB to be the one to set the tone In fairness, how do we know what EJ is like in the lockerroom? Also, Kelly almost single handedly destroyed the Bills. I'm not so sure how positive that was. He grew up quite a bit after he retired.
BillsFan17 Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 Stop being reasonable! I knew the second Kelly came here, he was going to be a HOFer (I was only 5 but still!). In fairness, how do we know what EJ is like in the lockerroom? Also, Kelly almost single handedly destroyed the Bills. I'm not so sure how positive that was. He grew up quite a bit after he retired. You are right, I don't know what goes on beyond the field, but the body language after mistakes tells a lot. I am just one fan and I am not saying my opinion is better than anyone's else's. Please don't think I am sitting here representing my self as a know it all. However, as much as I loved that Manuel gathered the troops in the bears game, the fact that FredEx was the more vocal and more demanding presence is what I am referring to. Marrone was saying in regards to some of Manuel's mistakes, that it could be in part to people not being in the right places. I fore one would like to see Manuel get over to those players and be vocal about fixing the mistakes. Especially if he is the one taking the grunt of the physical abuse as a result of it.
LOVEMESOMEBILLS Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 You are right, I don't know what goes on beyond the field, but the body language after mistakes tells a lot. I am just one fan and I am not saying my opinion is better than anyone's else's. Please don't think I am sitting here representing my self as a know it all. However, as much as I loved that Manuel gathered the troops in the bears game, the fact that FredEx was the more vocal and more demanding presence is what I am referring to. Marrone was saying in regards to some of Manuel's mistakes, that it could be in part to people not being in the right places. I fore one would like to see Manuel get over to those players and be vocal about fixing the mistakes. Especially if he is the one taking the grunt of the physical abuse as a result of it. To be fair Tom Brady, early in his career, was not throwing his helmet and screaming at people like he does now. He still has to prove himself and Fred, rightfully so, is still the vocal leader. This is not that uncommon.
C.Biscuit97 Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 You are right, I don't know what goes on beyond the field, but the body language after mistakes tells a lot. I am just one fan and I am not saying my opinion is better than anyone's else's. Please don't think I am sitting here representing my self as a know it all. However, as much as I loved that Manuel gathered the troops in the bears game, the fact that FredEx was the more vocal and more demanding presence is what I am referring to. Marrone was saying in regards to some of Manuel's mistakes, that it could be in part to people not being in the right places. I fore one would like to see Manuel get over to those players and be vocal about fixing the mistakes. Especially if he is the one taking the grunt of the physical abuse as a result of it. I'm hope you were thinking I was putting your opinion down. I don't know either. Your thoughts are very reasonable. I think us as fans want to see a guy screaming at teammates or in press conferences so we can see their "fire." But IMO, that doesn't go over great with other professionals. But winning solves everything. If the Bills win, then EJ has developed into a good leader. If not, then maybe he should have yelled more.
BillsFan17 Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 To be fair Tom Brady, early in his career, was not throwing his helmet and screaming at people like he does now. He still has to prove himself and Fred, rightfully so, is still the vocal leader. This is not that uncommon. valid point I stand corrected
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 I revert to the eye test. I saw Kelly's first ten games, I saw EJ's first ten games. I saw a swagger and I saw indeciveness. Guess which was which. You were indecisiveness right?
Beerball Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 To be fair Tom Brady, early in his career, was not throwing his helmet and screaming at people like he does now. He still has to prove himself and Fred, rightfully so, is still the vocal leader. This is not that uncommon. But, he's always been a petulant B word.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 To be fair Tom Brady, early in his career, was not throwing his helmet and screaming at people like he does now. He still has to prove himself and Fred, rightfully so, is still the vocal leader. This is not that uncommon. Brady had thrown 3 passes in the regular season at the point EJ is in his career.
Reed83HOF Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 But, he's always been a petulant B word. Some leader...
billsfan1959 Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 Honestly, we all should do this. We all try to reason with each other but it's pretty pointless. People who think EJ sucks aren't going to change their position. Whenever someone says that it takes Qbs time to develop and we should give up on EJ yet, they will counter and say you're a homer. So why even try anymore? This. There are pretty much two distinct camps on this board when it comes to EJ and most of us, regardless of what camp we are in, are not likely to be persuaded to believe otherwise at this point in time. The truth is that there isn't a single person who can say, with any degree of certainty, how good or bad EJ may be. We will all have a better idea at the end of the season. IMHO, there just doesn't seem to be enough evidence at the present time to give an informed opinion either way. While I do believe we are all entitled to our opinion, and this is certainly the place to give it, it seems, regarding EJ, this forum has just devolved into thread after thread after thread of the same points...over and over...ad nauseum...
Delete This Account Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 I was curious how much better Kelly's 10 games were vs EJs. Jim Kelly: Age 26 - 3 wins 7 losses, 174/284 61.27%, 2200 yards, 13 tds, 12 ints, 27 rushes 126 yards 0 tds EJ Manuel: Age 23 - 4 wins 6 losses, 180/306 58.82%, 1972 yards, 11 tds, 9 ints, 53 rushes 186 yards 2 tds ok, i'll go one further: who had a 10-5 record through his first 15 starts, went 257 for 421 (61 percent) with 12 TDs and 10 interceptions? why Trent Edwards, of course. jw
Mango Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 To be fair Tom Brady, early in his career, was not throwing his helmet and screaming at people like he does now. He still has to prove himself and Fred, rightfully so, is still the vocal leader. This is not that uncommon. We don't even have to step out of our own roster on this one. Fred wasn't the one doing the vocal leading early in his career either. ok, i'll go one further: who had a 10-5 record through his first 15 starts, went 257 for 421 (61 percent) with 12 TDs and 10 interceptions? why Trent Edwards, of course. jw you forgot he only threw 422 yards on those attempts. ha but a serious question, did he ever get a 300 yard game with any team. if memory serves me correct, he didn't get one here.
hondo in seattle Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 Whats the point of this? Different era, completely different game when Kelly was playing. I don't think it is a "completely different game." Certainly both the rules and offense schemes have evolved in ways that help QB stats. But football is still football. I think the stats tell a story: neither EJ nor Jim were stellar in their first ten starts. But that's a pretty meaningless story. Lots of HOF QBs have had crappy starts as have lots of sh*tty QBs. Nothing in these numbers tell us what kind of QB EJ will be. EJ lovers think they see something beyond the numbers - strong arm, good study habits, etc. - that will help him eventually excel in the NFL. EJ haters think they see something beyond the numbers - "slow eyes," lack of competitive passion, etc. - that will prevent him from excelling in the NFL. The numbers themselves don't tell us much about EJ's potential.
John from Riverside Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 I revert to the eye test. I saw Kelly's first ten games, I saw EJ's first ten games. I saw a swagger and I saw indeciveness. Guess which was which. The guy with prior pro experience?
Agent 91 Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 Watching the old tapes one of the great things about Jimbo is that his QB play really softened up the running lanes. You had to respect his ability to strike you dead in the 10+ yard range. Manuel's QB play as it stands actually clogs up the running lanes. How did you find old footage? Or did you tape original broadcasts? How does EJ clog lanes? Are you saying because the defense brings guys up into the box? Or something else? If the line EJ has was anywhere near as good as Jims we might have something. Maybe different teams, but I was watching Youtube footage of Thurman, and that line was amazing. Hull reading the rush and calling out blocking assignments. Ballard pulling and just the overall agressive nature. Its almost as if that nasty streak is gone from here. Not trying to let EJ off the hook, even though I dont see him as being as terrible as most on here do. I am more so wondering what happened to us to be such a patchwork line. Is it that we are still recovering from the Levy debocle that was Langston Walker, Melvin Fowler, Derrick Dockery. Or is it the release of good parts, namely people like Levitre and Jason Peters.
26CornerBlitz Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 Honestly, we all should do this. We all try to reason with each other but it's pretty pointless. People who think EJ sucks aren't going to change their position. Whenever someone says that it takes Qbs time to develop and we should give up on EJ yet, they will counter and say you're a homer. So why even try anymore? The 1st perspective is closed minded and has already reached a conclusion. People who are there often will only see negative and will give no credit even if it's due. The 2nd perspective is open minded and has yet to reach a conclusion at such an early stage. Those who are in this camp see both good and bad. They post objective positive and negative commentary when it's appropriate to do so.
jester43 Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 I could have sworn this has been posted before in a similar thread discussing the same topic. watch "Jim Kelly pt 1 1986" and tell me who you'd rather have. I had to console myself that he got do spend two years n the minors (usfl) that EJ didn't....but still... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX5_-EhEo9g
Kemp Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 The original poster seems to have missed the part of how much more yardage is produced by qbs now as opposed to then. The game has changed. For our next topic, let's discuss point scoring in the Gretzky area as opposed to now.
Dorkington Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 The overreactions to the simple OP are kind of hilarious.
PlayoffsPlease Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 (edited) The 1st perspective is closed minded and has already reached a conclusion. People who are there often will only see negative and will give no credit even if it's due. The 2nd perspective is open minded and has yet to reach a conclusion at such an early stage. Those who are in this camp see both good and bad. They post objective positive and negative commentary when it's appropriate to do so. What you call closed minded others call "decisive". GM's for example need to be decisive when making draft decisions. They don't need to wait three years to decide if they believe or don't believe in a QBs potential, based on ....wait for it.... only college stats and what they see. Fans can also be decisive and reach conclusions based on ........wait for it... college stats, early NFL stats and what they see. What you call open minded others would call "wishy washy". Obviously nobody ever knows the future perfectly about pretty much everything. So the wishy-washy person can always win any argument about anything that is prospective with "you can't know that for sure". And the wishy-washy person will always think they won the argument. In NFL QB development for example the Bills couldn't be sure about JP Losman, Trent Edwards or Ryan Fitzpatrick until a massive amount of failure occurred. As a result, they never added credible QBs to the "pipeline" until it was time to cut ties with the incumbnent QB and go back to square 1. Other teams like the niners and eagles added QBs to their pipeline fairly consistently (not first rounders, but early to mid picks). Teams like the Bronco's and Patriots also see value to adding QBs with early picks just in case the top guys get hurt. The Bills have been the epitome of "being patient with the QB" for many years now, and it hasn't really worked out that well. There is no reason whatsoever to cut ties with EJ this early in his career or to not start him. But their also was/is no compelling reason to not add another QB to the "pipeline" in the last draft or to have considered adding a veteran like Michael Vick (not as a starter). Whaley is not wishy-washy. He has made a very decisive decision to be all-in with EJ. Part of the fun of being a fan for many, is having their developing their own opinions about roster moves. It is a tad boring to limit yourself purely to hindsight. Edited August 26, 2014 by PlayoffsPlease
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