Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 anyone who has seen him will say that Kyle Orton can play. Period. We will have a QB controversy on our hands by October. Orton is Fitz 2.0 with fewer interceptions and not as good wheels/escapability. He's a capable NFL quarterback, which is something EJ has yet to prove he can be. He may be an upgrade on Tuel and Lewis. But QB who can "play, period" typically aren't on their 5th team in 8 seasons and cut at the 53 man roster. And they don't have a resume' which includes being benched for Rex Grossman and Tim Tebow. The only way we have a QB controversy is if it proves that in EJ, we don't have a QB
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 This amazing gift? http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/170235-dunning-kruger-effect/ What's the phase... I'm no genius, but I know what I don't know...
Green Lightning Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) $5m is middle of the road for a backup QB. EJ makes less than $2m a year, which is peanuts. SB Nation is reporting that Orton is the highest paid back-up in the league. https://sports.yahoo.com/news/kyle-orton-contract-numbers-tops-133140474.html Edited August 31, 2014 by Green Lightning
Ohiostyle Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 I'm glad we have a capable backup, but this should have no bearing on EJ's situation. Orton will not go out and light it up, at best he manages games in the event EJ gets hurt, or totally poo's the bed. He is the furthest thing from the long term solution we all crave.
Forward Progress Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Maybe I'm slow, but I haven't completely formed my opinion on EJ yet. He's been capable at times and inaccurate at others. He hasn't made many highlight reel throws, but he hasn't had an excess of boneheaded plays (e.g. Tuel vs. KC) that can kill a team either. Before our O-Line was realigned for preseason game three, EJ was moving the ball and getting first downs, but we weren't finishing in the red zone. After the O-Line realignment (which I agree gets the best five players on the line and should become a solid improvement over last season), our offence was brutal, mostly due to poor pass protection, poor run blocking, too many penalties along with some imprecise throws from EJ. I think the job belongs to EJ until he gets injured or proves that he is not a capable starting quarterback in the NFL. I am glad that we signed Orton because he is so much better than our other options at backup, but it's too soon throw EJ away and start all over again searching for our next franchise QB. Is it just me, or has this offseason, been way too long? I can't wait for the real games to start. GO BILLS!! FP
The Dean Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 This stemmed from my saying "I'm not a stats guy" and I'm not. I do look at stats. They do hold value but this isn't baseball where a player is what their stats are. A DE can be double teamed all day, and only show up on the stats sheet with 1 tackle while playing a great game. He may have forced pressure but not gotten a sack. He may have forced two blockers freeing up other rushers. Stats won't show you this though. A QB may have had a horrible year in terms of comp % but that doesn't mean he's inaccurate. He could have had a year with new receivers and a new OC which didn't manage to get on the same page. A QB can have dumb receivers who misread defenses and screw up their option routes. You can have QBs who check down in lieu of giving the play time to develop which causes them to have a good comp % and QBR when they really weren't playing good at all. I'm not a stats guy. I do look at them. They do have their place. But they're not definitive and I probably hold them with significantly less regard than most fans. I believe you still miss the point. Nobody is suggesting you look at stats in a vacuum. You use context to analyze them. "Not a stats guy" is one thing. But to ignore a pattern, across teams and systems, seems to be putting yourself at a disadvantage, knowledge-wise.
RuntheDamnBall Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 I'm glad we have a capable backup, but this should have no bearing on EJ's situation. Orton will not go out and light it up, at best he manages games in the event EJ gets hurt, or totally poo's the bed. He is the furthest thing from the long term solution we all crave. Yep. Orton/McCown/Fitz are all the kinds of guys we should have had around last year: capable, durable, but not long-termers. Kolb was missing that crucial second element and it cost the Bills dearly. Consider the luxury the 49ers were afforded in retaining and building up Smith before pivoting to the QB they believed in long term. Not only did Harbaugh get to evaluate his talent better with an experienced QB, he wasn't shackled to the performance of an unheralded young QB. No new coach/GM tandem should put themselves in this situation unless they have an Andrew Luck in the fold. They had a perfect situation to start from with Fitz under contract, and botched it doubly by signing his more fragile, less capable counterpart in Kolb while eating Fitzy's dead cap money.
The Dean Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Especially since Tebow lit 'em up under center in his Buffalo appearance with Denver!
Ohiostyle Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Yep. Orton/McCown/Fitz are all the kinds of guys we should have had around last year: capable, durable, but not long-termers. Kolb was missing that crucial second element and it cost the Bills dearly. Consider the luxury the 49ers were afforded in retaining and building up Smith before pivoting to the QB they believed in long term. Not only did Harbaugh get to evaluate his talent better with an experienced QB, he wasn't shackled to the performance of an unheralded young QB. No new coach/GM tandem should put themselves in this situation unless they have an Andrew Luck in the fold. They had a perfect situation to start from with Fitz under contract, and botched it doubly by signing his more fragile, less capable counterpart in Kolb while eating Fitzy's dead cap money. 100% correct. I'd hope Whaley and Marrone would be the first to admit they botched the backup qb situation. Frankly they got bailed out here.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 SB Nation is reporting that Orton is the highest paid back-up in the league. https://sports.yahoo.com/news/kyle-orton-contract-numbers-tops-133140474.html Wow.... desperate times call for desperate measures? I will be disappointed if they Start Orton over Manuel at any point this season because it will likely mark another failed attempt to develop a franchise QB and the process will start all over again. I don't believe they intend to start him as it suggests, I just think they intended to get a vet back up and the protracted discussion was because they didn't want to pay his price for a back up. As preseason went on it became clear they had no altertive and they ponied up the cash faced with no other real choice. This is the narrative I invented based on what few facts I know, but who knows where they really are....
Green Lightning Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 My internalization is the FO is operating in a "one and done" atmosphere with a new owner coming in. I don't think they would pay $5 mil for a back-up if they did't fully intend on using him If EJ falters. To me, they are operating in a "just win baby" mode and they'll do some short term things to make it so.
bowery4 Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Wow.... desperate times call for desperate measures? I will be disappointed if they Start Orton over Manuel at any point this season because it will likely mark another failed attempt to develop a franchise QB and the process will start all over again. I don't believe they intend to start him as it suggests, I just think they intended to get a vet back up and the protracted discussion was because they didn't want to pay his price for a back up. As preseason went on it became clear they had no altertive and they ponied up the cash faced with no other real choice. This is the narrative I invented based on what few facts I know, but who knows where they really are.... Sounds right to me. Our 2 back ups regressed and a vet presence was needed. Money be damned. My internalization is the FO is operating in a "one and done" atmosphere with a new owner coming in. I don't think they would pay $5 mil for a back-up if they did't fully intend on using him If EJ falters. To me, they are operating in a "just win baby" mode and they'll do some short term things to make it so. and a bit of this too. BTW Dude and Dean, I really don't think you are arguing the same subject and over a beer you might just realize you agree with each other. Sort of an interesting read though. Semantics are at the heart of your disagreement IMO. and I don't even drink.
transient Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Yep. Orton/McCown/Fitz are all the kinds of guys we should have had around last year: capable, durable, but not long-termers. Kolb was missing that crucial second element and it cost the Bills dearly. Consider the luxury the 49ers were afforded in retaining and building up Smith before pivoting to the QB they believed in long term. Not only did Harbaugh get to evaluate his talent better with an experienced QB, he wasn't shackled to the performance of an unheralded young QB. No new coach/GM tandem should put themselves in this situation unless they have an Andrew Luck in the fold. They had a perfect situation to start from with Fitz under contract, and botched it doubly by signing his more fragile, less capable counterpart in Kolb while eating Fitzy's dead cap money. To the point about Fitz, I truly believe that leaked hoax/phone call killed any shot of Fitz renegotiating his contract, and therefore returning. It was not flattering. I think this probably forced their hand with Kolb. No less inept, maybe a bit less shortsighted, though.
The Dean Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 To the point about Fitz, I truly believe that leaked hoax/phone call killed any shot of Fitz renegotiating his contract, and therefore returning. It was not flattering. I think this probably forced their hand with Kolb. No less inept, maybe a bit less shortsighted, though. Leaked phone call? Refresh my memory, please.
The_Dude Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 I believe you still miss the point. Nobody is suggesting you look at stats in a vacuum. You use context to analyze them. "Not a stats guy" is one thing. But to ignore a pattern, across teams and systems, seems to be putting yourself at a disadvantage, knowledge-wise. I never said I completely ignore stats .I just said I'm not a stats guy and that's true. Leaked phone call? Refresh my memory, please. A couple of kids planked Buddy. The whole things embarrassing for OBD. They called the number listed for OBD and told the lady who answered the phone they were the Jacksonville GM and they wanted to talk to Nix. She transferred them to Nix. They didn't think it'd actually happen and hung up. Somehow when Buddy "called" the Jacksonville GM back the pranksters managed to record the call and put it online. On the call Buddy states he can't pay Fitz a 'backup' what the Bills were on the hook for. The pranksters were prosecuted for this.
The Dean Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) I never said I completely ignore stats .I just said I'm not a stats guy and that's true. A couple of kids planked Buddy. The whole things embarrassing for OBD. They called the number listed for OBD and told the lady who answered the phone they were the Jacksonville GM and they wanted to talk to Nix. She transferred them to Nix. They didn't think it'd actually happen and hung up. Somehow when Buddy "called" the Jacksonville GM back the pranksters managed to record the call and put it online. On the call Buddy states he can't pay Fitz a 'backup' what the Bills were on the hook for. The pranksters were prosecuted for this. Ah, yes. I do recall that now. Thanks. I thought at first the reference was to a leaked Fitz phone call. But had I remembered the Buddy incident I would have figured it out. I liked Buddy, but he seems like the kind of guy who, if he even uses a computer, is ripe for an email scam of some sort.. Old people make good targets. Edited August 31, 2014 by The Dean
Captain Caveman Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Can someone whip up some street fighter 2 style graphics of this matchup? I wonder what EJ's special move is.
RuntheDamnBall Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Can someone whip up some street fighter 2 style graphics of this matchup? I wonder what EJ's special move is. Orton's involves the use of the business end of a busted bottle of Jack Daniels, but this is more of a Mortal Kombat move. To the point about Fitz, I truly believe that leaked hoax/phone call killed any shot of Fitz renegotiating his contract, and therefore returning. It was not flattering. I think this probably forced their hand with Kolb. No less inept, maybe a bit less shortsighted, though. Agreed.
The_Dude Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 I just saw Ortons contract is $5 million. Does a team that's confident in their starter pay $5 mill for a backup? Ortons gonna play.
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