Kyle Orton vs EJ Manuel

[The Dean]

I'm sitting here thinking, when are KtG and the Dean going to admit that that they're totally wrong about Trent Edwards' alleged accuracy? How did that debate go off the rails??

 

I'm not sure who KtG is, but I'm The Dean. Not exactly sure what you are referring to. But Trent was fairly accurate early in his career. Up until his injury I recall he was accurate on short and medium routes, and decent on deep passes. Once he came back from the injury, it was clear, over time, he was very reluctant to pass to WRs unless, and until, they were totally wide open. The combination of his loss of confidence post injury, plus poor offensive line play (not to mention some bad play calling), led to his being a rather impotent QB.

 

If there is something more, than I'm not certain what it is. But have I been wrong about players in the past? Of course. Who, being honest, hasn't?

 

BTW, one of the problems I see a bit with EJ is his reluctance to throw to guys before they are open. I think he may be able to overcome that as he gets comfortable with his WRs. I'm nowhere near positive that will happen but I am wiling to give him a shot.

[Dr. K]

We can agree to disagree now, before you post a clip of a specific pre-season play where he did this.

 

My point is that throwing the ball with anticipation is not a strength of his. And conversely, EJ rarely fires the ball into tight spaces. In fact he throws a lot of high-lofted floaters (that often trail OB) ... to me, this indicates indecision and an attempt to be "too perfect".

 

#3 is not durable, and although he looks the part, he offers no real threat as a scrambler. In fact, he missed time on three separate occasions, once because he didn't protect himself, and twice because his knee swelled up after the game.

 

I'll give you this, he is good at being delusionally positive.

 

Ain't nobody got time for any more enigmas!

 

 

Interesting article on Orton, in case you have not seen it yet...

 

http://www.nationalf...e-hot-seat.html

 

EJ threw with anticipation repeatedly in the second Jets game. Go watch it. For instance, he hit two long passes on successive plays (the second for a TD) to Graham and Goodwin. IN both cases he had to fire the pass before the receiver broke open. Also, for all those who say he never or can't throw long, these were both long passes, over thirty yards in the air.

[dave mcbride]

 

 

I'm not sure who KtG is, but I'm The Dean. Not exactly sure what you are referring to. But Trent was fairly accurate early in his career. Up until his injury I recall he was accurate on short and medium routes, and decent on deep passes. Once he came back from the injury, it was clear, over time, he was very reluctant to pass to WRs unless, and until, they were totally wide open. The combination of his loss of confidence post injury, plus poor offensive line play (not to mention some bad play calling), led to his being a rather impotent QB.

 

If there is something more, than I'm not certain what it is. But have I been wrong about players in the past? Of course. Who, being honest, hasn't?

 

BTW, one of the problems I see a bit with EJ is his reluctance to throw to guys before they are open. I think he may be able to overcome that as he gets comfortable with his WRs. I'm nowhere near positive that will happen but I am wiling to give him a shot.

The stats are earlier in the thread!

 

 

 

If I am KtG, when I was talking about Trent, I was talking about him on the Bills. On the Bills, he was a career low 60s passer, which was what I was talking about in the post you responded to. 62 or so. Which I said was deceiving (meaning he wasn't even as good as that). He was 65 the one year he started and played the whole year.

 

Take away 08, and his Bills accuracy stats were in the mid-high 50s. Like I said eariler in the thread, he was a 7-6 qb (arguably) in 08 -- better than anyhting else the bills have had in the last decade. And the defense wasn't any great shakes either that season.

Edited September 2, 2014 by dave mcbride

[Kelly the Dog]

 

The stats are earlier in the thread!

 

 

 

 

Take away 08, and his Bills accuracy stats were in the mid-high 50s. Like I said eariler in the thread, he was a 7-6 qb (arguably) in 08 -- better than anyhting else the bills have had in the last decade. And the defense wasn't any great shakes either that season.

Take away 08? Lol.

 

I said that completion stats are not a good gauge, and that they are often misleading. That you want your QB to have a completion percentage in the low 60s but that some guys who seem to have good percentages aren't that good. On the Bills, Trent was 535 for 838, which is 60.9% (low 60s). The only year he started the whole year he was 65.5. His rookie year was low, 56, and his final year was 60. I'm not sure what you're trying to refute of what I said.

 

I always thought Trent was lousy, even when he was good.

[RuntheDamnBall]

 

Take away 08? Lol.

 

I said that completion stats are not a good gauge, and that they are often misleading. That you want your QB to have a completion percentage in the low 60s but that some guys who seem to have good percentages aren't that good. On the Bills, Trent was 535 for 838, which is 60.9% (low 60s). The only year he started the whole year he was 65.5. His rookie year was low, 56, and his final year was 60. I'm not sure what you're trying to refute of what I said.

 

I always thought Trent was lousy, even when he was good.

But take away the good year, and he's schitty. Take away the worst year, and he's less schitty.

[The Dean]

The stats are earlier in the thread!

 

 

 

 

Take away 08, and his Bills accuracy stats were in the mid-high 50s. Like I said eariler in the thread, he was a 7-6 qb (arguably) in 08 -- better than anyhting else the bills have had in the last decade. And the defense wasn't any great shakes either that season.

 

I believe my point was, despite Trent's shortcomings, when he passed for a reasonable completion percentage, the Bills had a better record than when Fitz passed at a much lower competition percentage. Passing at lower than a 60% completion percentage (in that case much lower) typically results in a worse performance. I wasn't arguing that Tent was good,. Just refuting an argument that stats meant nothing. Stats, in context, can usually reveal something.

[reddogblitz]

I am really happy to have Kyle on the team.

 

Of course EJ will start for a while barring injury. If EJ does get injured and Kyle has to come in he'll do fine even though he hasn't been on the team very long.

 

Best case is EJ play well and stays healthy and we win. Kyle rides the pine all the way to Arizona.

 

However if EJ does get hurt we can now bring in a 1A QB and not lose much. A HUGE improvement over one week ago today. I wish we'd got him earlier, but we couldn't. But I am rally glad we did.

 

I would also fall into the camp that thinks right now, today, Kyle is a better QB than EJ. Maybe the stats don't bear it out but from watching it seem so to me. I've supported bringing in Kyle every time he has become available since leaving Denver.

 

If the time comes that I think we should start Kyle over EJ I'll bring it up then. As for now I'm rooting heavily for EJ to succeed and Kyle never see the field.

 

Go BILLS. !!

[Orton's Arm]

Wheels are off, where are we now ?

Preseason.

 

Maybe by the time we're halfway through the regular season, the engine will be off too.

[MDH]

Maybe by the time we're halfway through the regular season, the engine will be off too.

 

And that might be a more appropriate time to complain about it instead of, you know, before an actual game is played.

[26CornerBlitz]

EJ threw with anticipation repeatedly in the second Jets game. Go watch it. For instance, he hit two long passes on successive plays (the second for a TD) to Graham and Goodwin. IN both cases he had to fire the pass before the receiver broke open. Also, for all those who say he never or can't throw long, these were both long passes, over thirty yards in the air.

 

Exhibit A: http://www.buffalobills.com/video/videos/Buffalo-Bills-wide-receiver-Marquise-Goodwin-shows-off-his-speed/eaa9b5ae-71e3-4735-a9e7-731248cda21c

[JC2002]

Orton was beat out in Denver by Tebow [and thoroughly outplayed by Tebow], so naturally the Bills sign Orton as backup because there's no upside to threaten the prized Jewel that is EJ Manuel.

 

Orton was never beat out by tebow and never outplayed by tebow . Orton was set to be traded to Mia before camp but the Dolphins owner vetoed the trade at the last minute so the Broncos had no choice but to start Orton over tebow as he was teams captain and flat out the better QB. But the new coach John Fox was already changing the offense from the shotgun passing attack that helped Orton throw for over 7400 yards and 40 tds the previous two seasons . Because the previous coach had traded multiple picks to move up into the first rd to take Orton the Broncos had no choice but to get tebow on the field to see what he can do which is the case with 1st rd picks but after seeing what he can do the broncos immediately got rid of him and after the jets got him they did what ? and where is tebow now ?

 

Orton after being released by Denver was picked up by the struggling Chiefs in late November when Cassell has struggled and then was out hurt . They fired haley right after picking up Orton for not immediately starting him and costing them yet another win when they were still a game or two outside of the wildcard . They went 3-1 beat tebow and the Broncos in Denver ,beat the then undefeated packers give them there only regular season loss(15-1) and came within a missed fg of making the playoffs and orton had only been on the team a few weeks . They gave interim coach Romeo Crennel the job permanently and he basically gave credit to Orton for helping him get it. If they were not on the hook for cassell for major money they would've kept Orton .They went back to cassell the next season he sucked and they all got fired coach,gm everyone .

 

Orton seems to be able to adapt quickly ,players seem to like playing with the guy ,and he seems to be very studious and methodical in his preparation which is probably why he is able to adapt so quickly. I can see why they would want him behind E.J . They have given him a mentor of sorts so that he can pick his brain and that is never a bad thing for a young gb to have .

[CountDorkula]

Orton was never beat out by tebow and never outplayed by tebow . Orton was set to be traded to Mia before camp but the Dolphins owner vetoed the trade at the last minute so the Broncos had no choice but to start Orton over tebow as he was teams captain and flat out the better QB. But the new coach John Fox was already changing the offense from the shotgun passing attack that helped Orton throw for over 7400 yards and 40 tds the previous two seasons . Because the previous coach had traded multiple picks to move up into the first rd to take Orton the Broncos had no choice but to get tebow on the field to see what he can do which is the case with 1st rd picks but after seeing what he can do the broncos immediately got rid of him and after the jets got him they did what ? and where is tebow now ?

 

Orton after being released by Denver was picked up by the struggling Chiefs in late November when Cassell has struggled and then was out hurt . They fired haley right after picking up Orton for not immediately starting him and costing them yet another win when they were still a game or two outside of the wildcard . They went 3-1 beat tebow and the Broncos in Denver ,beat the then undefeated packers give them there only regular season loss(15-1) and came within a missed fg of making the playoffs and orton had only been on the team a few weeks . They gave interim coach Romeo Crennel the job permanently and he basically gave credit to Orton for helping him get it. If they were not on the hook for cassell for major money they would've kept Orton .They went back to cassell the next season he sucked and they all got fired coach,gm everyone .

 

Orton seems to be able to adapt quickly ,players seem to like playing with the guy ,and he seems to be very studious and methodical in his preparation which is probably why he is able to adapt so quickly. I can see why they would want him behind E.J . They have given him a mentor of sorts so that he can pick his brain and that is never a bad thing for a young gb to have .

 

Good post but not worth it. Some posters on this board have a blind hatred for EJ. No matter what you or others say, it will not change their minds. Let them have their "fun" in telling us how bad EJ sucks and how bad the Bills will be. But be damned if they celebrate when EJ throws a TD pass. They will be the ones sitting in their chair pouting like a whiny babies that EJ is no good and it doesnot matter, woe is me.

[dave mcbride]

I believe my point was, despite Trent's shortcomings, when he passed for a reasonable completion percentage, the Bills had a better record than when Fitz passed at a much lower competition percentage. Passing at lower than a 60% completion percentage (in that case much lower) typically results in a worse performance. I wasn't arguing that Tent was good,. Just refuting an argument that stats meant nothing. Stats, in context, can usually reveal something.

Then we agree! My apologies.

 

Take away 08? Lol.

 

I said that completion stats are not a good gauge, and that they are often misleading. That you want your QB to have a completion percentage in the low 60s but that some guys who seem to have good percentages aren't that good. On the Bills, Trent was 535 for 838, which is 60.9% (low 60s). The only year he started the whole year he was 65.5. His rookie year was low, 56, and his final year was 60. I'm not sure what you're trying to refute of what I said.

 

I always thought Trent was lousy, even when he was good.

 

No, I'm saying that if you think he's a bad qb, then it's wise to dismiss the semi-good year. In the years he was bad (most of his career), his completion rate was 57 percent. When he played poorly, he wasn't accurate. When he played decently, he was a 65.5 percent passer.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

long weekend to not post.....

 

Kyle Ortin - I meant to post something about his dumping from Dallas months ago but resisted,

 

Kyle Orton settles in with Buffalo Bills

"When this opportunity arose, I jumped at it. This was the right team for me.

 

Kyle..... its the only team for you. That is why you jumped on it.

Edited September 2, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[Fan in Chicago]

However if EJ does get hurt we can now bring in a 1A QB and not lose much. A HUGE improvement over one week ago today. I wish we'd got him earlier, but we couldn't. But I am rally glad we did.

 

If the time comes that I think we should start Kyle over EJ I'll bring it up then. As for now I'm rooting heavily for EJ to succeed and Kyle never see the field.

 

Go BILLS. !!

 

Of immediate concern is the unfamiliarity of Orton to the Bills offense. (hold the joke about having only 4 plays to run). The two backups who knew the offense are not on the active roster. Till Orton comes up to speed (which could take a few weeks), we better pray like hell that EJ doesn't get nicked up (not that I ever want him to get hurt but from a team's perspective, especially not in the next few weeks).

The trick in this situation is that wanting to protect EJ could result in a game plan which is too safe. I would have liked Whaley to keep Tuel till such a time as Orton is ready. Then stash him away on the PS. As it stands right now, the offense's hands may be tied with respect to how aggressive they can be.

[dave mcbride]

If I am KtG, when I was talking about Trent, I was talking about him on the Bills. On the Bills, he was a career low 60s passer, which was what I was talking about in the post you responded to. 62 or so. Which I said was deceiving (meaning he wasn't even as good as that). He was 65 the one year he started and played the whole year.

 

Dog spelled backward is God, you know ...

[K-9]

Of immediate concern is the unfamiliarity of Orton to the Bills offense. (hold the joke about having only 4 plays to run). The two backups who knew the offense are not on the active roster. Till Orton comes up to speed (which could take a few weeks), we better pray like hell that EJ doesn't get nicked up (not that I ever want him to get hurt but from a team's perspective, especially not in the next few weeks).

The trick in this situation is that wanting to protect EJ could result in a game plan which is too safe. I would have liked Whaley to keep Tuel till such a time as Orton is ready. Then stash him away on the PS. As it stands right now, the offense's hands may be tied with respect to how aggressive they can be.

 

The concern about Orton's familiarity is mitigated by the fact that he'll be learning it on a game-plan specific basis in the short term. So while he may not have the entire book down, he will have a keen understanding of the game plan designs for the Bears and other teams moving forward. And I don't think defenses will show him things from a schematic viewpoint that he hasn't already seen. I think he'll be able to get us into the best plays more often than not, assuming everybody else is on the same page.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I believe my point was, despite Trent's shortcomings, when he passed for a reasonable completion percentage, the Bills had a better record than when Fitz passed at a much lower competition percentage. Passing at lower than a 60% completion percentage (in that case much lower) typically results in a worse performance. I wasn't arguing that Tent was good,. Just refuting an argument that stats meant nothing. Stats, in context, can usually reveal something.

 

I'm a bit puzzled by this argument. TE had an overall completion percentage with the Bills of 60.9% (low of 55.8% and a high of 65.8%). Fitz, 59.8% (low of 55.9% and a high of 62%).

Are you trying to argue that 1% completion percentage difference is major? Or is this simply a convoluted way of saying "a team does better with any QB throwing more completions"?

 

Personally, I think the difference between the Bills 7-9 record in 2008, when TE had a 65.5% completion percentage, vs 6-10, when Ryan Fitzpatrick had a 62% completion percentage had to do more with defense - the fact in 2008 we had the 14th ranked defense on both points and yards, vs. 2011 when we had the 30th ranked defense on points and 26th on yards. Somehow Jauron and Fewell managed to do more with less on D.

 

Aside: I looked this up and was shocked to see that Trent Edwards actually threw more INTs than TDs in his 4 years in St Louis - 25 TDs to 27 INTs. Fitz was 80 TD to 64 INTs.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Orton was never beat out by tebow and never outplayed by tebow . Orton was set to be traded to Mia before camp but the Dolphins owner vetoed the trade at the last minute so the Broncos had no choice but to start Orton over tebow as he was teams captain and flat out the better QB. But the new coach John Fox was already changing the offense from the shotgun passing attack that helped Orton throw for over 7400 yards and 40 tds the previous two seasons . Because the previous coach had traded multiple picks to move up into the first rd to take Orton the Broncos had no choice but to get tebow on the field to see what he can do which is the case with 1st rd picks but after seeing what he can do the broncos immediately got rid of him and after the jets got him they did what ? and where is tebow now ?

 

Did you mean "the previous coach had traded multiple picks to move up in the first round to take Tebow"?

 

Orton was acquired in that famous "Broncs fleeced the Bears" trade

[juno999]

I think

 

...we just went 4 pre-season games with the starters not scoring a touchdown against other starters. It might be a train wreck. But point taken, he's not starting week 1. If our offense doesn't show up for 3 weeks, he could start week 4 though.

 

It really is odd to me that they saw what happened with the lack of a quality backup QB last year (in starting both Tuel and Lewis) and didn't address it this year. Signing Dixon is not addressing the situation. I understand last year the plan was to have Kolb and he got hurt. Fine, things happen. But what's the excuse for this year? It seems totally irresponsible.

This is spot on. The Bills have pretty good depth and talent on the roster but the qb situation over the past 2 years has been a bleeping mess. I honestly don't know what to think of EJ but to not have a decent backup who can challenge EJ and maybe even start is ridiculous. Orton could be decent but it is going to take some time to learn the plays and get timing down with the receivers. EJ played about as mediocre as you can get in preseason and he is the starter. OUCH!!!!