Good guys and bad guys on and off the field - Does it matter?

[Kelly the Dog]

The Manziel thread got me thinking of this and I think this is a fascinating topic that deserves its own thread.

 

Personally, I don't care what kind of guy a player is off the field as long as he isn't a menace to society and hurting other people or his team.

 

I like certain players who are dicks and I complain about other players because they are dicks. I think most if not all fans are hypocritical to some degree about that.

 

I also contend that it is very hard to know whether a guy is a good guy or a bad guy from what he says to the press, or what is reported about him. I know for a fact that a lot of guys who come across as great guys in the press are actually !@#$s behind closed doors, and the only reason fans think they are great guys is because they have been well schooled at dealing with the press, are naturally good at creating impressions that may not be true, or are just flat liars.

 

And this is true outside of football in equal proportions in other arenas where people are under public scrutiny.

 

I live and work in Hollywood. I know, for example, a few comedians or actors/actresses that I think are total !@#$s in real life. But I do not and cannot let that seep into my attitude toward them as performers because I think it shouldn't. They are either funny or not, good actors in good TV shows and movies or not. Just because they are arrogant idiots, or I do or don't like their politics shouldn't matter what I think of them while "on stage."

 

I also think that, as I stated in the Johnny Football thread, a lot of good to great players have to be arrogant or they wouldn't be good to great players. Some guys are able to turn that on and off, and some aren't. I'm not sure it is their fault.

 

Letting Jim Kelly be Jim Kelly the person and player during his playing days allowed him to be arguably the best and most beloved player in the history of the franchise. If you stopped him from being cocky and arrogant and going out drinking, I strongly contend and would bet anything he wouldn't have been the player that he was.

[CodeMonkey]

The Manziel thread got me thinking of this and I think this is a fascinating topic that deserves its own thread.

 

Personally, I don't care what kind of guy a player is off the field as long as he isn't a menace to society and hurting other people or his team.

 

I like certain players who are dicks and I complain about other players because they are dicks. I think most if not all fans are hypocritical to some degree about that.

 

I also contend that it is very hard to know whether a guy is a good guy or a bad guy from what he says to the press, or what is reported about him. I know for a fact that a lot of guys who come across as great guys in the press are actually !@#$s behind closed doors, and the only reason fans think they are great guys is because they have been well schooled at dealing with the press, are naturally good at creating impressions that may not be true, or are just flat liars.

 

And this is true outside of football in equal proportions in other arenas where people are under public scrutiny.

 

I live and work in Hollywood. I know, for example, a few comedians or actors/actresses that I think are total !@#$s in real life. But I do not and cannot let that seep into my attitude toward them as performers because I think it shouldn't. They are either funny or not, good actors in good TV shows and movies or not. Just because they are arrogant idiots, or I do or don't like their politics shouldn't matter what I think of them while "on stage."

 

I also think that, as I stated in the Johnny Football thread, a lot of good to great players have to be arrogant or they wouldn't be good to great players. Some guys are able to turn that on and off, and some aren't. I'm not sure it is their fault.

 

Letting Jim Kelly be Jim Kelly the person and player during his playing days allowed him to be arguably the best and most beloved player in the history of the franchise. If you stopped him from being cocky and arrogant and going out drinking, I strongly contend and would bet anything he wouldn't have been the player that he was.

Well put. I agree with you completely.

[K D]

I can't help but let the off the field things get to me. If I hear a guy is a jerk off the field it makes me not want to root for them on the field and vice versa. Fred is my favorite Bill and it's not because he's our best player.

 

Another question might be would you rather have a great team that is full of jerks or a team full of good guys who stink? I'd probably be somewhere in the middle.

[Kellyto83TD]

Win the superbowl....then put the entire team in jail for all I care! I WANT THE DAMN TROPHY!!!!!

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I posted this in the other thread, but my concern is with kids. So many kids idolize athletes, especially QB's. My 10-year old nephews are from Cleveland and are big Manziel fans, and their parents have to shield them from the star QB/dissaude them to follow him, which is a shame.

 

There is no way to force people to be better human beings. But having a star QB Manziel leads to 10-year old kids making "money signs" during little league games, and thinking it's okay flicking off the other team.

[Kirby Jackson]

Great post and topic Kelly!! To me, I am not that concerned about the types of people that I have as long as my leadership is strong and can hold the more troubled characters accountable. I think that FJax, Wood, Kyle, Mario and soon to be Aaron Williams and EJ is a pretty good leadership core. Those guys possess the character that you want leading your team. They are the ones that influence the other players. Regardless of how much of a headache Seantrel (just an example) can become he isn't influencing anyone as a 7th round rookie. Now, if FJax starts becoming a malcontent and causing problems it can negatively impact the team (luckily that will never happen).

 

EDIT: There is 1 more type that is reserved for the top 1% and that is work ethic. When Sammy Watkins is running patterns 2 hours before a practice starts the Hogan's, Graham's, and Easley's of the world should do the same. It is tough to lead by example IMO unless you are a Mario/Sammy type talent.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[kickedface]

i honestly don't care as long as they win. i do remember that 90's team being bad boys though. i'd gladly have that again. at the same time if a team has some confidence/swagger/loudmouth fun going on i've always liked that. when a team completely shuts up its usually cause they can't back it up. sure there are players out there who do nothing but talk, but usually there is something behind the team they are on.

[Clippers of Nfl]

I love tough guys. However I dont like tough guys that take cheapshots. That does bother me. You can be an Ahole all day. Just dont bite someone when no one is looking. Or punch the nuts when you can get away with it.

Be tough, rude, jerk, just dont cross the line.

 

I dont like the nerdy goody goody player. This is not golf or ballet.

 

Edit: Did not see the off the field part. Off the field, they can be the biggest dbags on earth. I could care less about that. I dont care if they take candy from little kids. Really, I dont. Even if they were my kids. How often could a player steal candy from my kids when Lynch is off the team?

Edited August 19, 2014 by Clippers of Nfl

[FireChan]

I posted this in the other thread, but my concern is with kids. So many kids idolize athletes, especially QB's. My 10-year old nephews are from Cleveland and are big Manziel fans, and their parents have to shield them from the star QB/dissaude them to follow him, which is a shame.

 

There is no way to force people to be better human beings. But having a star QB Manziel leads to 10-year old kids making "money signs" during little league games, and thinking it's okay flicking off the other team.

 

"I am not a role model. I don't get paid to be a role model. I get paid to wreak havoc on the football field. Just because I can throw a touchdown, doesn't mean I should raise your kids."

[Kelly the Dog]

I posted this in the other thread, but my concern is with kids. So many kids idolize athletes, especially QB's. My 10-year old nephews are from Cleveland and are big Manziel fans, and their parents have to shield them from the star QB/dissaude them to follow him, which is a shame.

 

There is no way to force people to be better human beings. But having a star QB Manziel leads to 10-year old kids making "money signs" during little league games, and thinking it's okay flicking off the other team.

This kind of stuff is a big issue with me.

 

First and foremost, yes, I agree. if kids see Johnny Football doing that money thing, and emulate it, I think it is obnoxious and I would really prefer they didn't do it. And you can teach them not to.

 

But, every kid knows it's wrong to flip someone the bird. Most kids, 99% I would argue, are not going to flip an opponent the bird because they saw Johnny Football do it in a preseason game. They know it's wrong and very, very few are going to think it's okay because Manziel did it. Plus, if they were that dumb and did it because he did, the punishment they would take from their coach or parents would stop it in an instant. They would be thrown out of a little league or high school game. And if their parents or coach think their kid is cool for flipping someone off in the game, their problem is not Johnny Manziel; it didn't start or end with that middle finger.

 

For me, it comes back to the Pete Rose issue. There is zero doubt in my mind he belongs in the Hall of Fame. I would doubt there is any kid anywhere who truly believes it is okay to bet on baseball if you are a major league baseball player, or did it as an adult because Pete Rose did it and they were just emulating him.

 

But 100,000 kids may hustle or run to first on walks or dive head first into second base or barrel through catchers coming into home plate because they saw Pete Rose do it.

 

The point is, kids emulate guys on the field, and to some extent the way they dress. They don't think it's okay to knock a girl unconscious in an elevator because their favorite player Ray Rice did.

[dave mcbride]

This kind of stuff is a big issue with me.

 

First and foremost, yes, I agree. if kids see Johnny Football doing that money thing, and emulate it, I think it is obnoxious and I would really prefer they didn't do it. And you can teach them not to.

 

But, every kid knows it's wrong to flip someone the bird. Most kids, 99% I would argue, are not going to flip an opponent the bird because they saw Johnny Football do it in a preseason game. They know it's wrong and very, very few are going to think it's okay because Manziel did it. Plus, if they were that dumb and did it because he did, the punishment they would take from their coach or parents would stop it in an instant. They would be thrown out of a little league or high school game. And if their parents or coach think their kid is cool for flipping someone off in the game, their problem is not Johnny Manziel; it didn't start or end with that middle finger.

 

For me, it comes back to the Pete Rose issue. There is zero doubt in my mind he belongs in the Hall of Fame. I would doubt there is any kid anywhere who truly believes it is okay to bet on baseball if you are a major league baseball player, or did it as an adult because Pete Rose did it and they were just emulating him.

 

But 100,000 kids may hustle or run to first on walks or dive head first into second base or barrel through catchers coming into home plate because they saw Pete Rose do it.

 

The point is, kids emulate guys on the field, and to some extent the way they dress. They don't think it's okay to knock a girl unconscious in an elevator because their favorite player Ray Rice did.

Disagree about Rose. Players/coaches betting on their own team (whether it's to win or lose) is the worst thing in sports. We watch them because we don't know who will win. Any messing with that basic formula should be absolutely verboten (with the stiffest of penalties) because it impacts the basic integrity of the game. Whether it inspires kids to gamble or not is an irrelevant issue.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

 

This kind of stuff is a big issue with me.

 

First and foremost, yes, I agree. if kids see Johnny Football doing that money thing, and emulate it, I think it is obnoxious and I would really prefer they didn't do it. And you can teach them not to.

 

But, every kid knows it's wrong to flip someone the bird. Most kids, 99% I would argue, are not going to flip an opponent the bird because they saw Johnny Football do it in a preseason game. They know it's wrong and very, very few are going to think it's okay because Manziel did it. Plus, if they were that dumb and did it because he did, the punishment they would take from their coach or parents would stop it in an instant. They would be thrown out of a little league or high school game. And if their parents or coach think their kid is cool for flipping someone off in the game, their problem is not Johnny Manziel; it didn't start or end with that middle finger.

 

For me, it comes back to the Pete Rose issue. There is zero doubt in my mind he belongs in the Hall of Fame. I would doubt there is any kid anywhere who truly believes it is okay to bet on baseball if you are a major league baseball player, or did it as an adult because Pete Rose did it and they were just emulating him.

 

But 100,000 kids may hustle or run to first on walks or dive head first into second base or barrel through catchers coming into home plate because they saw Pete Rose do it.

 

The point is, kids emulate guys on the field, and to some extent the way they dress. They don't think it's okay to knock a girl unconscious in an elevator because their favorite player Ray Rice did.

 

I am somewhat ambivalent on this topic, since my own kids aren't that age yet. But you make some good points. The concern probably lies in those gray areas-- cocky attitude, money sign, etc-- and less in the obvious misdeeds--domestic abuse.

 

That said, I wouldn't want my kids wearing ray rice jerseys.

[MRW]

I am somewhat ambivalent on this topic, since my own kids aren't that age yet. But you make some good points. The concern probably lies in those gray areas-- cocky attitude, money sign, etc-- and less in the obvious misdeeds--domestic abuse.

 

That said, I wouldn't want my kids wearing ray rice jerseys.

I hear ya, man. It's a passing league now, kids have to get with the times.

[Kelly the Dog]

Disagree about Rose. Players/coaches betting on their own team (whether it's to win or lose) is the worst thing in sports. We watch them because we don't know who will win. Any messing with that basic formula should be absolutely verboten (with the stiffest of penalties) because it impacts the basic integrity of the game. Whether it inspires kids to gamble or not is an irrelevant issue.

That is not what I am getting at. I agree with what you just posted. And he paid his price for the mistake. I am not saying anything he did is nearly okay in any form. What I am saying is, kids know right from wrong. No kid is going to see what Rose did and then emulate him by betting on baseball when he becomes a major league player. They emulate how players play and dress. They don't beat their girlfriends up because they see their "heroes" do it.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

 

I hear ya, man. It's a passing league now, kids have to get with the times.

Haha; awesome.