kareem abdul-jabbars opinion piece on ferguson

[birdog1960]

We agree on that so do you think there should be a birthright guarantee to make equal people who are not?

under the law, yes. should we not endeavor to make this symbol http://constitutiona...ind-justice.gif more than a cruel joke? Edited August 18, 2014 by birdog1960

[GG]

In this country, we are supposed to be equal in the eyes of the law. It's the heart of what makes us free.

 

Equality in opportunity is not the same as equality in outcome.

[birdog1960]

Equality in opportunity is not the same as equality in outcome.

if we ascertain that there is not equality under the law we can necessarily conclude that there is not equality of opportunity. no reasonable person questions equality of outcomes.

[Deranged Rhino]

 

 

Equality in opportunity is not the same as equality in outcome.

[/Quote]

 

Sure. But that's not relevant to a conversation about whether or not there's racial bias in the justice system.

 

Unless you're arguing that due process only applies to people with money, or people of specific skin color, or people who live in particular zip codes. Which I don't think you are.

[Doc]

Everyone is not equal. That's life. Here's another article for you. The sources are off to the right if you click on the link:

 

http://www.discovert...ory.asp?id=1261

 

It bears mention that the astronomical illegitimacy rate among African Americans is a relatively recent phenomenon. As late as 1950, black women nationwide were more likely to be married than white women, and only 9 percent of black families with children were headed by a single parent. In the 1950s, black children had a 52 percent chance of living with both their biological parents until age seventeen; by the 1980s those odds had dwindled to a mere 6 percent. In 1959, only 2 percent of black children were reared in households in which the mother never married; today that figure approaches 60 percent.

 

The destruction of this stable black family was set in motion by the policies and teachings of the left, which for decades have encouraged blacks to view themselves as outcasts from a hostile American society; to identify themselves as perpetual victims who are entitled to compensatory privileges designed to “level the playing field” in a land where discrimination would otherwise run rampant; and to reject “white” norms and traditions as part and parcel of the “racist” culture that allegedly despises blacks. It is not inconceivable that one of those traditions which many blacks have chosen to abjure is the institution of marriage. In their landmark bookAmerica in Black and White, Stephan and Abigail Thernstrom make this profoundly important observation:

“In the past three decades the proportion of intact married-couple families has declined precipitously even though the fraction of black women aged fifteen to forty-four who were divorced, separated, or widowed also went down.… It is thus not divorce but the failure to marry that has led to such a momentous change in black family patterns. The marriage rate for African Americans has plummeted in the past third of a century. In 1960 … lack women were only a shade less likely to marry than white women.... Today a clear majority of African American women aged fifteen to forty-five have never been married, as compared with just a third of their white counterparts…. Many fewer black women are marrying, and yet they continue to have children—which was not the case in an earlier era.”

It is less a matter of black women choosing not marrying so much as it is black men refusing to stick around/get married. Somehow I can't imagine that all these young black men are proposing to their baby mamas or wanting to stick around and being turned down.

if we ascertain that there is not equality under the law we can necessarily conclude that there is not equality of opportunity. no reasonable person questions equality of outcomes.

There isn't equality under the law...for law-abiding citizens? So you're saying that blacks are being incarcerated and doing nothing wrong?

Edited August 19, 2014 by Doc

[Deranged Rhino]

 

There isn't equality under the law...for law-abiding citizens? So you're saying that blacks are being incarcerated and doing nothing wrong?

 

Check out some studies on the differences in sentencing between white and minority defendants. No one (well at least not me) is making the argument that LEO are herding up innocent minorities and twisting their mustaches, but there is a long history of inequality in the eyes of the justice system.

 

Look at the differences in sentencing (since changed) between crack cocaine and powdered cocaine. Harsher sentences for crack (the cheaper drug) virtually sanctioned inequality under the eyes of the law, guaranteeing he poorest would be punished the most.

[Sig1Hunter]

 

 

Check out some studies on the differences in sentencing between white and minority defendants. No one (well at least not me) is making the argument that LEO are herding up innocent minorities and twisting their mustaches, but there is a long history of inequality in the eyes of the justice system.

 

Look at the differences in sentencing (since changed) between crack cocaine and powdered cocaine. Harsher sentences for crack (the cheaper drug) virtually sanctioned inequality under the eyes of the law, guaranteeing he poorest would be punished the most.

 

Poor white people can't afford competent legal representation. Wealthy black people can. Poor white guy is more likely to be found guilty and receive a harsher sentence. Who is arguing this reality? It's a given. What role does race play? None.

[GG]

Sure. But that's not relevant to a conversation about whether or not there's racial bias in the justice system.

 

Unless you're arguing that due process only applies to people with money, or people of specific skin color, or people who live in particular zip codes. Which I don't think you are.

 

Due process applies equally to everyone, but people with more resources are usually better equipped to deal with the Leviathan. Just ask OJ.

[birdog1960]

Poor white people can't afford competent legal representation. Wealthy black people can. Poor white guy is more likely to be found guilty and receive a harsher sentence. Who is arguing this reality? It's a given. What role does race play? None.

not jabaar. this is exactly his point. the thread clearly shows who is arguing it here.

[Rob's House]

perhaps you missed the part of the argument that starts "regardless of the causes, it points to inequality". i've given several further solid examples that make that point. hell, the food stamps one was teed up so high that 5 year old could've hit a 9 degree driver off it. your anger is showing. i'm wondering if that's at "white liberals", "black apologists" or something else that you're so resentful of.

So if the cause is irrelevant then what's the point? And BTW, your lazy argument was an implication that at least one of the root causes of inequality is asymmetrical policing, which you supported with pitiful analysis, now you're trying to deflect with this "anger" business.

 

I just find it funny (funny stupid, not funny ha ha) when liberals start pontificating from atop their high horse about things the don't understand.

 

And if it's about inequality, wouldn't it be worth discussing the cause of that inequality? Or is it just easier to say racism, discrimination, not fair, without a logical or factual basis?

[Chef Jim]

most prisoners are in for drugs. read the numbers. there are more whites using drugs than blacks. did it occur to you that law enforcement may be more aggressive in arresting and prosecuting black drug users than whites.

 

 

What part of the city are most of the crimes being committed? Remember I live in Oakland.

[Sig1Hunter]

not jabaar. this is exactly his point. the thread clearly shows who is arguing it here.

 

You?

[Rob's House]

tell me, do people get arrested for using? does a positive drug screen land someone(excluding those on probation) in jail in any state? i was being generous in interpretation of your statement re using versus dealing. i assumed you understood that point and just inadvertantly replaced possession with usage. silly me. never anticipated such a weasel defense. and we're still left to wonder what your comment about dealing had to do with any of this.

 

 

Your point here fails too. The theory you're advancing is that more whites than blacks use drugs, more blacks are arrested for drugs, therefore racism. It's a silly argument that must be due to naivety or just plain ignorance. I'll give you an anecdotal example to illustrate the point: My brother in law and I are both drug users by the definition I'm sure you're using, but it's not due to luck, chance, racism, or finances that he's in jail and I haven't had any trouble with the cops since the 90s. All "drug users" are not the same.

 

 

 

Check out some studies on the differences in sentencing between white and minority defendants. No one (well at least not me) is making the argument that LEO are herding up innocent minorities and twisting their mustaches, but there is a long history of inequality in the eyes of the justice system.

 

Look at the differences in sentencing (since changed) between crack cocaine and powdered cocaine. Harsher sentences for crack (the cheaper drug) virtually sanctioned inequality under the eyes of the law, guaranteeing he poorest would be punished the most.

Are we pretending that tooting rails is as dangerous as smoking rocks?

[Doc]

Check out some studies on the differences in sentencing between white and minority defendants. No one (well at least not me) is making the argument that LEO are herding up innocent minorities and twisting their mustaches, but there is a long history of inequality in the eyes of the justice system.

 

Look at the differences in sentencing (since changed) between crack cocaine and powdered cocaine. Harsher sentences for crack (the cheaper drug) virtually sanctioned inequality under the eyes of the law, guaranteeing he poorest would be punished the most.

That's the most glaring one that I can recall. But doing a little reading on it, it sounded like the media created a frenzy over crack cocaine, making it seem like it was the most addictive drug drug ever. To me it sounds like what they're doing with Spice now.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Doc

[Deranged Rhino]

 

 

Poor white people can't afford competent legal representation. Wealthy black people can. Poor white guy is more likely to be found guilty and receive a harsher sentence. Who is arguing this reality? It's a given. What role does race play? None.

 

This is the point. It started racial, moved to class, what's next? People who aren't affected by the inequality (again speaking in terms of the justice system) don't see the problem until it's too late. Sooner or later it catches up to us all. If we are truly the land of the free and justice is indeed blind, the incarceration rates would look much different than they do today.

 

Kareem's point is it's not racial as much as it is class. It was also Carlin's point twenty years ago.

 

Due process applies equally to everyone, but people with more resources are usually better equipped to deal with the Leviathan. Just ask OJ.

 

The argument is that due process is not currently being applied equally. This is what lies at the root of the issue.

 

 

That's the most glaring one that I can recall. But doing a little reading on it, it sounded like the media created a frenzy over crack cocaine, making it seem like it was the most addictive drug drug ever. To me it sounds like what they're doing with Spice now.

 

The media certainly plays a role, as do the race baiters and politicians. But if you look past the bull **** and examine what's actually happening, it's more difficult to pass it off as just an over reaction. Rather it's one link in a long chain of abuses.

[birdog1960]

This is the point. It started racial, moved to class, what's next? People who aren't affected by the inequality (again speaking in terms of the justice system) don't see the problem until it's too late. Sooner or later it catches up to us all. If we are truly the land of the free and justice is indeed blind, the incarceration rates would look much different than they do today.

 

Kareem's point is it's not racial as much as it is class. It was also Carlin's point twenty years ago.

 

 

 

The argument is that due process is not currently being applied equally. This is what lies at the root of the issue.

 

 

 

The media certainly plays a role, as do the race baiters and politicians. But if you look past the bull **** and examine what's actually happening, it's more difficult to pass it off as just an over reaction. Rather it's one link in a long chain of abuses.

many already affected are oblivious.

[Sig1Hunter]

 

The argument is that due process is not currently being applied equally. This is what lies at the root of the issue.

 

 

It's not as much as it is being applied in an unequal fashion, as certain attorneys are better at their jobs. Being better at your job means that you can charge more money for your services. Any public defender is able to make sure that due process is followed within the criminal justice system. The "root" of the issue is much deeper than that.

[ExiledInIllinois]

The argument is that due process is not currently being applied equally. This is what lies at the root of the issue.

 

As a liberal, I have to disagree and say it is what GG responded to you with. It is what I was getting @ in the other thread. When he says "resources" and "equipped to deal with the Leviathan", it isn't just money IMO. It is education & work ethic too... How much time and efort people (or their lawyers) put in dealing with the Leviathan. I believe that due process is being appiled equally, it just gets derailed and swallows many up! Make it easier and you would see the equality.

 

It's not as much as it is being applied in an unequal fashion, as certain attorneys are better at their jobs. Being better at your job means that you can charge more money for your services. Any public defender is able to make sure that due process is followed within the criminal justice system. The "root" of the issue is much deeper than that.

 

You are right about the words: "certain attorneys." VERY FEW attorneys!

[birdog1960]

It's not as much as it is being applied in an unequal fashion, as certain attorneys are better at their jobs. Being better at your job means that you can charge more money for your services. Any public defender is able to make sure that due process is followed within the criminal justice system. The "root" of the issue is much deeper than that.

that's dependent on being able to find or pay for a public defender: http://www.npr.org/2...come-with-a-fee

 

http://www.npr.org/2...tate-court-fees

 

http://www.npr.org/2...rest-defendents

 

and most depressing: http://www.npr.org/2...stions-to-heart

 

and if you just can't get enough there's this: http://www.npr.org/series/313986316/guilty-and-charged

Edited August 19, 2014 by birdog1960

[Doc]

The media certainly plays a role, as do the race baiters and politicians. But if you look past the bull **** and examine what's actually happening, it's more difficult to pass it off as just an over reaction. Rather it's one link in a long chain of abuses.

Getting back to my original point, blacks aren't being locked up for no reason. And if you're not prepared to do the time, don't do the crime. That's a code I live by since I don't want anyone else deciding my fate but myself.