EJ Staring Down Receivers/Looking Off Defenders

[3rdand12]

If it sounded intolerable or condescending, I apologize. That wasn't my intention. I just take things for granted sometimes.

 

And compared to raising a son and all the joy (and heartache at times) that entails, the Bills aren't even a pimple on the ass of what's relevant.

 

GO BILLS!!!

No No nO . you are fine. i was just counterpoint a little.

You just carry on and focus on whats important. I personally blather on about stuff . because this is a forgiving environment nowadays.

I am barely tolerated while you my friend are an asset.

Yin and a little yang. we all balance each other out if all goes well.

[quinnearlysghost88]

quinnearlysghost is just like Quinn Early. He came, he didn't contribute, and was never heard from again.

 

Sorry, I have a job. I can't live on the Bills boards in the middle of August. It was to Woods, I don't recall which of the routes it was. I was sitting with four other Bills fans and we ALL remarked watching the replay how odd it was that he didn't look off. But again, TBD is going to staunchly defend any slight brought against EJ because...why? he hasn't proven anything here.

[maddenboy]

Quinn, I suspect that you got that barb tossed at you because, from your post, it sounded like you didnt read the OP's linked article first.

 

Yes, some of us have jobs. Its totally cool to jump on here when you have time. We all understand that work can be boring and its nice to have an interesting outlet.

 

But I do think its standard on any message board that, if the OP links an article, then assume that the thread is about that article. Posts not reflecting the points in the article will be deemed (right or wrong) to not have added to the discussion of that particular thread.

 

(I mean, we ALL have been guilty of not reading the OP, and/or not slogging thru pages of discourse, and just posting at the end. But its just more noticeable when the OP has a linked article).

Edited August 13, 2014 by maddenboy

[thebandit27]

Sorry, I have a job. I can't live on the Bills boards in the middle of August. It was to Woods, I don't recall which of the routes it was. I was sitting with four other Bills fans and we ALL remarked watching the replay how odd it was that he didn't look off. But again, TBD is going to staunchly defend any slight brought against EJ because...why? he hasn't proven anything here.

 

No, the over-arching point that is lost on some folks is this: why would a QB "look off" his first read when he's decidedly open?

 

Furthermore, why would anyone criticize a QB for completing a pass to an open WR because he didn't bother to unnecessarily "look off" some nondescript defender that may or may not have ever been in position to make a play?

[You herd it hear last]

No, the over-arching point that is lost on some folks is this: why would a QB "look off" his first read when he's decidedly open?

 

Furthermore, why would anyone criticize a QB for completing a pass to an open WR because he didn't bother to unnecessarily "look off" some nondescript defender that may or may not have ever been in position to make a play?

 

 

Because the facts don't fit the agenda. Therefor they're not facts.

 

I was sitting on the 30 in Carolina last weekend and he had a play where he stared down Robert Woods from the second the ball was snapped until he made the pass. It was insane how telegraphed it was. How can you be an NFL QB and actively do something like that?

 

To EJ's credit(?), Woods caught the pass

 

I think the points is we're a little frustrated that people have now chosen to use COMPLETIONS as a negative against our QB.

[thebandit27]

Because the facts don't fit the agenda. Therefor they're not facts.

 

 

 

I think the points is we're a little frustrated that people have now chosen to use COMPLETIONS as a negative against our QB.

 

I'm not really convinced that quinnearly has an agenda; I just think that too much has been made of this "staring down" perception and it creates a predisposition for seeing flaws that aren't necessarily there.

[You herd it hear last]

Sorry, I have a job. I can't live on the Bills boards in the middle of August. It was to Woods, I don't recall which of the routes it was. I was sitting with four other Bills fans and we ALL remarked watching the replay how odd it was that he didn't look off. But again, TBD is going to staunchly defend any slight brought against EJ because...why? he hasn't proven anything here.

 

Because we're defending OUR QB who hasn't had the TIME to prove anything here. You guys now come on and use ONE completed PRESEASON pass to solidify your position that he is a bust. Especially AFTER reading the article that may or may not give insight as to why he may or may not have "looked off" the receiver. That sounds like Phooey to me. Pardon my french.

[quinnearlysghost88]

Yes I will fully admit that I didn't read the OPs article. I saw the title on the stadium wall, recalled Friday and posted my experience.

 

And I don't think I'm using completions as a negative. I just think looking at a completion as a measuring stick is short sighted. As decent as he looked Friday, seeing him live didn't instill any confidence in me. There were a few times where he had open wR/Rb but didn't get through his progressions in time or locked on one side of the field. And yes I know that's kind of unfair considering that Carolina had a very competitive d. But again this is just one mans opinion with a few Blue Lights in the barrel haha.

[You herd it hear last]

Yes I will fully admit that I didn't read the OPs article. I saw the title on the stadium wall, recalled Friday and posted my experience.

 

And I don't think I'm using completions as a negative. I just think looking at a completion as a measuring stick is short sighted. As decent as he looked Friday, seeing him live didn't instill any confidence in me. There were a few times where he had open wR/Rb but didn't get through his progressions in time or locked on one side of the field. And yes I know that's kind of unfair considering that Carolina had a very competitive d. But again this is just one mans opinion with a few Blue Lights in the barrel haha.

 

Fair enough, I wasn't there. Although now I'm thirsty.

[BADOLBILZ]

I know I've complained about this before, EJ staring down his receiver.

 

Here is a nice little write-up by Sal Capaccio for some added perspective.

 

link

 

I think LBs are keying on the first read then when they anticipate a quick pass. Especially within the red zone.

 

While I agree that those who think EJ is staring down his targets every time are wrong, that is a hyperbolization of the criticism, IMO.

 

He is still very bad at this for an NFL QB.

 

This issue reminds me of the arguments over Fitzpatricks arm strength.

 

When I initially brought this subject up early in his time with Chan Gailey, it was not well received here to say the least. The argument against me went something along the lines of "didn't you see that long pass to TO" or references to all the fastballs he had been throwing.

 

But the nuance initially missed by most was that Fitz was not able to generate that power without losing body control and subsequently, accuracy. As I pointed out at the time the issue was "range"....his lack of which was a byproduct of a lack of natural, easily generated arm strength.

 

Plenty of "experts" stepped up to dismiss the questions about Fitz' arm strength over the next year. But in time, his inability to connect downfield finally cracked some hard heads and his lack of range became a "known".

 

EJ's issue is a lack of instinct for the game. He isn't a work in progress because of a lack of training. This guy was attending QB camps and being groomed for big time football from an early age and he then played a lot of football in 4 years at very high level program and entered the league at a ripe age of 23.

 

The guy just lacks a natural feel for the game. He doesn't stare down his receiver every time......he just BLATANTLY does it when he forgets not too.

 

This was the issue brought up by that scouting report that was posted here a while back. He seems to have to think about the fundamental aspects of the game while he is playing.......and then in the process ends up making some glaring errors in other areas.

 

And no......these aren't just problems EVERY young QB has. These are specific to him and some other "specimen" type QB's who have been given chances because of raw physical talent.

 

Now as I have said.....I think he has a good chance of working his way thru his issues because he is very intelligent and a hard worker with abundant physical skills.

 

There may even be parts of his game that are actually advanced but we don't get to see consistently because his struggles with the basics obscure them.

 

If and when he gets to the point where he can string together the pre-snap to release basics naturally perhaps he will actually be ahead of the curve.

 

But the question IMO is how long will it take and do the Bills have time to wait that long.

[Buftex]

quinearlyghost88 stole my avatar, and he didn't even check on any other options before doing it...

[hondo in seattle]

When you consider that EJ was a rookie who missed most of preseason and was working for a rookie OC without a QB Coach, you have to say his stats were reasonably good.

 

Regardless of the reasonably good rookie stats, the EJ haters see flaws in his game that will prevent him from reaching a higher level.

 

EJ lovers see his rookie shortcomings as correctable and anticipate big things.

 

Both sides make cogent arguments. Neither side is convincing the other. We might as well just let the season unfold and all see for ourselves who is right.

 

(vp, thanks for the link - good article).

[You herd it hear last]

When you consider that EJ was a rookie who missed most of preseason and was working for a rookie OC without a QB Coach, you have to say his stats were reasonably good.

 

Regardless of the reasonably good rookie stats, the EJ haters see flaws in his game that will prevent him from reaching a higher level.

 

EJ lovers see his rookie shortcomings as correctable and anticipate big things.

 

Both sides make cogent arguments. Neither side is convincing the other. We might as well just let the season unfold and all see for ourselves who is right.

 

(vp, thanks for the link - good article).

 

Luke....come to the darkside....

Edited August 13, 2014 by You herd it hear last

[yungmack]

It would help a lot if there is a contributor around TBD who played or coached QB at a reasonably high level who could weigh in because this "staring" thing is driving me a little bit nuts. Watch any QB in the league, including the top ones, and you're going to see them "staring down their receiver." That's because it's what a QB does. He doesn't just take a snap then leisurely look around in the hope that one of his guys is open, then go, "Oh, I think I'll toss it to that chap." On every pass play, he has a primary receiver, there's a well-practiced play underway, and it is up to the QB to make a quick decision whether that play is going to work or not (because a receiver is too well covered or defenders are closing in too fast). Only then does he go to his other reads or to the scramble.

 

On streak and post plays, with the deep drop (and after a quick scan, mostly to see what the D is doing), he's focused on the receiver. Because he knows his receiver's capabilities and should know those of the defender from film study, he decides whether or not the pass will have a good chance of success. If he decides it doesn't, then he goes through his reads.

 

On the quick throws, the bang-bang plays, he sometimes doesn't drop back at all, or not more than a step or two before firing the pass. And on those type of plays, you'd better believe he's "staring down his receiver" for the full fraction of a second before he passes it. And that type of pass is a staple of the Bills offense.

 

I think what a lot of the critics are calling "staring down the receiver" isn't that at all, it's NOT "looking off the defender" that is sometimes his problem. On passes other than the bang-bang type, a cagy QB is going to look at his second or third option first knowing full well he's going to throw to his primary receiver. Watch Peyton who does it all the time. This freezes or even moves the D away from the primary.

 

UPDATE:

 

Read the Capaccio article after writing this. He does a much better job of explaining than I did. I would still say that it is helpful to watch other QBs with the same critical eye the critics put on Manuel. I think you'll find his "staring down" is not at all a problem. Now, as to accuracy, I'll leave it up to Sal to allay my fears there because right now, that's what really concerns me the most.

Edited August 14, 2014 by yungmack

[maddenboy]

 

Both sides make cogent arguments. Neither side is convincing the other. We might as well just let the season unfold and all see for ourselves who is right.

 

 

This.

 

Its like arguing politics or religion on here. What's the point?

[BADOLBILZ]

This.

 

Its like arguing politics or religion on here. What's the point?

 

Political and religious arguments are never really resolved.

 

The EJ argument will mostly likely be resolved in the next 12-24 months.

 

So no........it's not like that.

 

Unless you think the jury is still out on Trent?

[Beerball]

Praise from Mike Williams following yesterday's practice...

I don't think he incompleted a pass. Everything was on time, we got everything we wanted. It was, like, perfect.

 

"Coming out of our breaks, it was all right there. This was the best I've seen him. If he can keep getting like this, it can be something to play with."

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/12106/manuel-rebounds-as-bills-punch-back

[Nanker]

quinearlyghost88 stole my avatar, and he didn't even check on any other options before doing it...

I know. I thought you had lost your mind when I read his first post.

He must have locked his eyes on that avatar like a laser.

 

Praise from Mike Williams following yesterday's practice...

 

http://espn.go.com/b...ills-punch-back

Yeah, sure. But what does a caveman know about the NFL?

[8-8 Forever?]

I know I've complained about this before, EJ staring down his receiver.

 

Here is a nice little write-up by Sal Capaccio for some added perspective.

 

link

 

I think LBs are keying on the first read then when they anticipate a quick pass. Especially within the red zone.

in red zone , your first read is pretty much your only read. come on. play mostly breaks down after that

[FLbills]

 

 

Political and religious arguments are never really resolved.

 

The EJ argument will mostly likely be resolved in the next 12-24 months.

 

So no........it's not like that.

 

Unless you think the jury is still out on Trent?

 

Actually it is a lot like politics and religion,at least at the current moment. It will continue to be a pointless argument until EJ answers the question for us, as you say, in 12-24 months.