K-9 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Reminds me of Fran Tarkington more than Flutie. Looked okay in the game against 2nd stringers, which I would guess is kinda like advanced college ball, sorta. We will see if he starts, he seems like he has already had durability issues in the past but he is tough and has a tough attitude, that I find likable. His off field persona, not so much (more his rich !@#$ thing, more than the partying). I do have to say I loved him in college but the NFL is something different. I'm calling it the 50 year anniversary SuperBowl that wasn't, ta-da! Agreed. Been saying that since his freshman year. If he can master the field from the pocket, he's got a decent chance to be Francis 2.0. But he's got to become a consistent threat from the pocket. As does any QB prospect. GO BILLS!!!
Kelly the Dog Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Agreed. Been saying that since his freshman year. If he can master the field from the pocket, he's got a decent chance to be Francis 2.0. But he's got to become a consistent threat from the pocket. As does any QB prospect. GO BILLS!!! Francis was like Flutie. Very small, ran around like maniacs, and had to wind up and give it everything they had to throw the ball deep downfield. Johnny Football is significantly taller and bigger than both of them although he looks slight, and has a rifle for an arm. He winds up a little but nothing like those two. He's also probably faster than them.
K-9 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Francis was like Flutie. Very small, ran around like maniacs, and had to wind up and give it everything they had to throw the ball deep downfield. Johnny Football is significantly taller and bigger than both of them although he looks slight, and has a rifle for an arm. He winds up a little but nothing like those two. He's also probably faster than them. Same height as Tarkenton and both are significantly taller than Flutie. Manziel is not significantly heavier than Tarkenton was, although Fran T played in a much "smaller" league by comparison. Tarkenton ran to buy time in the pocket and look to make the play down field. JFF needs to master that element. They look like clones in terms of elusiveness though. On a side note, while I can appreciate the comparisons to Vick as both are scrambling QBs, Vick was a world class sprinter coming out of college, a legit 4.3 guy, whereas JFF is slow in comparison. Vick was a threat to score from anywhere with his legs. Just can't say the same about JFF. And that's OK because Manziel is the far better passer already. GO BILLS!!!
YoloinOhio Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) Francis was like Flutie. Very small, ran around like maniacs, and had to wind up and give it everything they had to throw the ball deep downfield. Johnny Football is significantly taller and bigger than both of them although he looks slight, and has a rifle for an arm. He winds up a little but nothing like those two. He's also probably faster than them. he may measure bigger than them ( I have no idea) but I was at browns camp before they were in pads and he looked noticeably smaller in person than I anticipated. Unless he was standing next to Hawkins, who is smaller than everyone. Edited August 10, 2014 by YoloinOhio
K-9 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 he may measure bigger than them ( I have no idea) but I was at browns camp before they were in pads and he looked noticeably smaller in person than I anticipated. Unless he was standing next to Hawkins, who is smaller than everyone. Agree. Manziel looks slight. Dog made the absurd comparison to Barry Sanders up thread. Sanders was built like a fire plug, short and very thick. Manziel? Not so much. GO BILLS!!!
Kelly the Dog Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Same height as Tarkenton and both are significantly taller than Flutie. Manziel is not significantly heavier than Tarkenton was, although Fran T played in a much "smaller" league by comparison. Tarkenton ran to buy time in the pocket and look to make the play down field. JFF needs to master that element. They look like clones in terms of elusiveness though. On a side note, while I can appreciate the comparisons to Vick as both are scrambling QBs, Vick was a world class sprinter coming out of college, a legit 4.3 guy, whereas JFF is slow in comparison. Vick was a threat to score from anywhere with his legs. Just can't say the same about JFF. And that's OK because Manziel is the far better passer already. GO BILLS!!! I remember Tarkington being listed at 5-10 and looking significantly smaller. JF is 6'. Three inches to me is significant.
K-9 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I remember Tarkington being listed at 5-10 and looking significantly smaller. JF is 6'. Three inches to me is significant. He was listed at 6 feet even and played at about a buck ninety according to Pro Football Reference. Anyway, feel free to remember it however you wish. IMHO, he looks far more like Tarkenton than Flutie, who really WAS much shorter than both. Flutie, while a terrific scrambler at times, just didn't have the elusiveness of either. GO BILLS!!!
Augie Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Manziel was decisive and accurate and is destined to become a smudge on someones turf in the not too distant future. He's got good instincts and he's pretty tough, but that won't help him when he plays NFL starters and does the stuff he did last night. Ask RG3. Keep him safe in the pocket and he loses a lot of what gets him noticed. Or at least noticed in a good way - all the getting noticed in a bad way stuff is still there. Having said all that, watching the Browns should be fun this year. Excitement on both sides of the ball. (The benefits of copy and paste to find the right home.)
Mango Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 You do agree by being elusive, it cuts down on the number of hits, no? You do agree a QB without mobility can get injured because of it, no? As much as you want to turn the discussion into a series of absolutes that results in there being no significant injury risk to his style of play, that simply is not the case. Does being elusive help? Sometimes, yes. Why not all the time? Because nobody is elusive enough to avoi all hits. Even a guy like Vick, who is an unquestionably better athlete than Manziel, took too many hits. Sometimes a lack of mobility can get a QB hurt. Doesn't always. Peyton is one of the least mobile QBs ever to play--he's played 16 games every season in which he's stepped on the field. Style of play matters more than size or athleticism. I'm not backing off that idea. There is a huuuuuuuuuge difference between an elusive QB and what Manziel does, possibly labeled mobile. While a mobile QB is always elusive, elusive QB's aren't even close to always mobile. This is the crux of the argument. Of course avoiding pressure results in more injuries, but being hyper-mobile will result in more. Rothlisberger is actually elusive, not necassarily mobile in that he isn't a take off and run guy, he just buys time. Brees, Rodgers, and Wilson fall into the same category. Although they both can and will, it is opportunistic, not a natural playing style. Within the pocket Brady is one of the most elusive in the NFL. He has a keen ability to sense pressure, and merely side step it. Cam Newton does not play an elusive style, he is mobile, huge difference. He takes off and runs, regularly. Difference with Cam is he is built like almost like a DE or LB. We will see how this treats him down the stretch of his career. Mike Vick is paying for his playing style later in his career, and he even got a reprieve from the NFL for a few years, and still can't hold up. Kaep lands here too. This popular new breed in QB may not last, this is the first time we are seeing such size in mobility in larger numbers at the position. It will be interesting to see how it pans out. The sack rate for QB's is pretty sprawled based on playing style, not a huge favor to either. So if all QBs get sacked at an equal rate regardless of pressure, the mobile QB is setting himself up for a minimum of lets say (guessing) 3 hits per game, 48 per season. So yes their rate of injury will be far greater.
FireChan Posted August 10, 2014 Author Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) There is a huuuuuuuuuge difference between an elusive QB and what Manziel does, possibly labeled mobile. While a mobile QB is always elusive, elusive QB's aren't even close to always mobile. This is the crux of the argument. Of course avoiding pressure results in more injuries, but being hyper-mobile will result in more. Rothlisberger is actually elusive, not necassarily mobile in that he isn't a take off and run guy, he just buys time. Brees, Rodgers, and Wilson fall into the same category. Although they both can and will, it is opportunistic, not a natural playing style. Within the pocket Brady is one of the most elusive in the NFL. He has a keen ability to sense pressure, and merely side step it. Cam Newton does not play an elusive style, he is mobile, huge difference. He takes off and runs, regularly. Difference with Cam is he is built like almost like a DE or LB. We will see how this treats him down the stretch of his career. Mike Vick is paying for his playing style later in his career, and he even got a reprieve from the NFL for a few years, and still can't hold up. Kaep lands here too. This popular new breed in QB may not last, this is the first time we are seeing such size in mobility in larger numbers at the position. It will be interesting to see how it pans out. The sack rate for QB's is pretty sprawled based on playing style, not a huge favor to either. So if all QBs get sacked at an equal rate regardless of pressure, the mobile QB is setting himself up for a minimum of lets say (guessing) 3 hits per game, 48 per season. So yes their rate of injury will be far greater. I think you're mistaken about Russell Wilson. He is definitely a "mobile" guy. Wilson has rushed for 1000 yards in 2 seasons. That's hardly Big Ben/Brady being slippery in the pocket. Edited August 10, 2014 by FireChan
Kelly the Dog Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 He was listed at 6 feet even and played at about a buck ninety according to Pro Football Reference. Anyway, feel free to remember it however you wish. IMHO, he looks far more like Tarkenton than Flutie, who really WAS much shorter than both. Flutie, while a terrific scrambler at times, just didn't have the elusiveness of either. GO BILLS!!! Fair enough. I think you could see he was significantly smaller than other players. Bud Grant told Pete Carroll that Fran was 5-10 when they were considering drafting Russell Wilson. You could be right though. Pre combine I don't believe any height and weight numbers so I shouldn't even believe the 5-10 ones.
You herd it hear last Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 It's nice to know who the Bills fans are and who the johnny-come-lately fans are
FireChan Posted August 10, 2014 Author Posted August 10, 2014 It's nice to know who the Bills fans are and who the johnny-come-lately fans are I didn't realize you couldn't be both.
Mango Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I think you're mistaken about Russell Wilson. He is definitely a "mobile" guy. Wilson has rushed for 1000 yards in 2 seasons. That's hardly Big Ben/Brady being slippery in the pocket. That's fair. I just looked up his numbers http://pickingpros.com/nfl/quarterback-rushing-leaders.php I didn't realize they were that high. Watching the games it doesn't seem that he is running the ball that much but he is. Surprising numbers from Alex Smith as well. I always forget Terrelle Pryor even exists. I don't know why
Bob Malooga Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 I would have rather drafted Logan Thomas in the 4th round, if we were going to draft a QB this year. Pretty sure I even mentioned the idea here or on twitter, and got laughed at...and the kid looked very good last night. 11-12, 113 yards and 1 touchdown (that should have been a sack). Sure, it's his first game...but it was still an impressive performance for his first time on an NFL field. I think the sky is the limit for this kid, especially with who he has around him...including his head coach.
Doc Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 I would have rather drafted Logan Thomas in the 4th round, if we were going to draft a QB this year. Pretty sure I even mentioned the idea here or on twitter, and got laughed at...and the kid looked very good last night. 11-12, 113 yards and 1 touchdown (that should have been a sack). Sure, it's his first game...but it was still an impressive performance for his first time on an NFL field. I think the sky is the limit for this kid, especially with who he has around him...including his head coach. One good pre-season game against 3rd and 4th stringers doesn't mean much. Other than he's better than 3rd and 4th stringers. But prediction duly noted.
YoloinOhio Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 I would have rather drafted Logan Thomas in the 4th round, if we were going to draft a QB this year. Pretty sure I even mentioned the idea here or on twitter, and got laughed at...and the kid looked very good last night. 11-12, 113 yards and 1 touchdown (that should have been a sack). Sure, it's his first game...but it was still an impressive performance for his first time on an NFL field. I think the sky is the limit for this kid, especially with who he has around him...including his head coach. He is one of those very intriguing "project" QBs - always had the physical tools, but seemed to not put it all together in college. In fact, he played very poorly sometimes. I know scouts were not very high on him at all BUT I think you are right about him being with Arians. He is one of my favorite coaches. He just gets developing QBs. Will be interesting to watch this kid develop, if he can! Good call.
YoloinOhio Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 What QB(s) has Arians developed? roethlisberger and Luck, then helped Palmer get good enough again to win 11 games.
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