C.Biscuit97 Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 I think it was shattering Cam Newton's SEC record for total offense in a season that won him the Heisman. GO BILLS!!! And Kevin sumlin's offense, a top 10 6'5" receiver, and 2 top 5 picks OTs. He had to have the confidence and fearlessness and charisma as a leader before he could shatter the record. So that "immaturity" came first. In retrospect, while it amazed me when I first heard it, now it is no surprise that the Texas fans started calling him "Johnny Football" before he even played one snap. Agreed but that don't mean crap in the NFL. Granted he isn't close to Manziel but Losman came in cocky and was Hated by the team. You need to prove it first because your college resume doesn't mean anything with the big boys.
FireChan Posted August 19, 2014 Author Posted August 19, 2014 And Kevin sumlin's offense, a top 10 6'5" receiver, and 2 top 5 picks OTs. Agreed but that don't mean crap in the NFL. Granted he isn't close to Manziel but Losman came in cocky and was Hated by the team. You need to prove it first because your college resume doesn't mean anything with the big boys. "EJ went to bowl games, Tuel went 2-14 in college." You just talk outta both sides of your mouth all the time, huh?
billsfan1959 Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 The guy acts like the exact same guy that got him to where he is today, a fearless, confident, charismatic over-achiever and people jump all over him for being immature. If that's immature, immaturity is what got him drafted in the first round and won him the heisman as a Freshman. The Redskins guys were taunting him and he taunted them back. Orakpo said all the guys he flipped off were laughing hysterically on the sidelines. They didn't even take offense to it. I'm not advocating doing it, and he can't because of kids watching games and the NFL can't condone it and he might get penalties that hurt his team. But it's a simple learning curve that he has to try to tone down a touch. Being that guy that did that is what got him here whether you like him or not. I like him. I thought he played like garbage yesterday though and he should have played a lot better. IMHO, there is a big difference between being brash, cocky, and confident in your abilities - and actively seeking the spotlight, on and off the field, and continually engaging in behaviors that put your own self-aggrandizing needs above the team and the organization you play for. And it really isn't a fine line between the two... He was an exceptional athlete in college and I have no idea how good he will be as an NFL QB. However, that is a completely separate issue from, what has become, a pattern of self-centered and self-indulgent behavior.
K-9 Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 He had to have the confidence and fearlessness and charisma as a leader before he could shatter the record. So that "immaturity" came first. In retrospect, while it amazed me when I first heard it, now it is no surprise that the Texas fans started calling him "Johnny Football" before he even played one snap. Johnny Football was born in high school. He's been a Texas legend for a while now. GO BILLS!!!
Kelly the Dog Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 And Kevin sumlin's offense, a top 10 6'5" receiver, and 2 top 5 picks OTs. Agreed but that don't mean crap in the NFL. Granted he isn't close to Manziel but Losman came in cocky and was Hated by the team. You need to prove it first because your college resume doesn't mean anything with the big boys. Totally agree with all of that. What this really comes down to is if you kinda like Johnny Football, you're going to understand it. And if you don't like him, you're going to say he is a cocky little douche. I loved watching him play college football. I didn't care that he was a douche, he was obviously a douche. But games and football were really fun when I watched him play and I wanted him to play well because I liked him as a player. That is the only way I can explain it. There are other guys who act like him and I hate them for being whiny little douches, like Tom Brady. (I'm not comparing the two as players.) While he has been spoiled by his family and to some degree his college, I think it's totally unfair to ay he has never overcome adversity. The guy got killed every game and he always got up. He faces more scrutiny on a daily basis than I've ever had in my life. It must suck to be him and people watch every move you make. The kid is a warrior. And a whiny douche. It remains to be seen if he is a good NFL player. I don't see how RG3 lasts in the game. Johnny Football plays more reckless than RG3 (although perhaps not as brittle). Manziel looked like crap last night.
Gugny Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Gug, he was a legend in college. You can act like it's all in his head, but he broke offensive records in the best conference and was the first Freshman Heisman winner. He's not a legend in the NFL, but he has been for 2 years in college. Heisman trophies and college success mean nothing once they hire agents. If they did, then people like Eric Crouch and Tim Tebow would be getting fitted for their yellow jackets already. He was successful in college because he played against defenses with few-to-no NFL-caliber players on them. He can't draw plays in the sand and outrun/juke guys anymore.
K-9 Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 And Kevin sumlin's offense, a top 10 6'5" receiver, and 2 top 5 picks OTs. No doubt that all helped, but I can't take anything away from that Heisman year, regardless of the surrounding talent that made it possible. GO BILLS!!!
Kelly the Dog Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Johnny Football was born in high school. He's been a Texas legend for a while now. GO BILLS!!! Oh I know. But the Texas A&M fans were all over it before he played, which I don't think usually happens even with top high school recruits. Because so many knew of him perhaps, and the kind of guy he is perhaps, and it was still Texas I guess I shouldnt have been surprised.
K-9 Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Totally agree with all of that. What this really comes down to is if you kinda like Johnny Football, you're going to understand it. And if you don't like him, you're going to say he is a cocky little douche. I loved watching him play college football. I didn't care that he was a douche, he was obviously a douche. But games and football were really fun when I watched him play and I wanted him to play well because I liked him as a player. That is the only way I can explain it. There are other guys who act like him and I hate them for being whiny little douches, like Tom Brady. (I'm not comparing the two as players.) While he has been spoiled by his family and to some degree his college, I think it's totally unfair to ay he has never overcome adversity. The guy got killed every game and he always got up. He faces more scrutiny on a daily basis than I've ever had in my life. It must suck to be him and people watch every move you make. The kid is a warrior. And a whiny douche. It remains to be seen if he is a good NFL player. I don't see how RG3 lasts in the game. Johnny Football plays more reckless than RG3 (although perhaps not as brittle). Manziel looked like crap last night. I agree with all of this. If he can learn to be patient in the pocket and read defenses, his ceiling is Brees. If he doesn't learn to operate from the pocket, we'll see him in Canada if he's interested in being a pro football player. GO BILLS!!!
FireChan Posted August 19, 2014 Author Posted August 19, 2014 Heisman trophies and college success mean nothing once they hire agents. If they did, then people like Eric Crouch and Tim Tebow would be getting fitted for their yellow jackets already. He was successful in college because he played against defenses with few-to-no NFL-caliber players on them. He can't draw plays in the sand and outrun/juke guys anymore. I'm not talking about success in the NFL. You said he had no reason to be arrogant. I believe that's false.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 I agree with all of this. If he can learn to be patient in the pocket and read defenses, his ceiling is Brees. If he doesn't learn to operate from the pocket, we'll see him in Canada if he's interested in being a pro football player. GO BILLS!!! Yep. He's a pretty good pocket passer, too. Has a rifle and quick release and can make quick decisions. He will have to learn to read NFL defenses though, and that is almost always an unknowable (there are guys like Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson where you just knew from their background/experience/pedigree they would be able to do it).
Doc Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 I'm not talking about success in the NFL. You said he had no reason to be arrogant. I believe that's false. He had reason to be arrogant in college. In the NFL he's nothing but hype until he shows it on the field. And judging by last night...
Gugny Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 I'm not talking about success in the NFL. You said he had no reason to be arrogant. I believe that's false. He has all the reason in the world to feel proud of his collegiate football accomplishments. I agree with that.
chris heff Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 I'm not talking about success in the NFL. You said he had no reason to be arrogant. I believe that's false. So if one has a good enough reason it justifies arrogance?
FireChan Posted August 19, 2014 Author Posted August 19, 2014 (edited) So if one has a good enough reason it justifies arrogance? Gugny had a post that said he was a "legend in his own mind." My point was that he's a legend in a lot of people's minds in college football. No one is going to convince anyone on justification. Personally, at 21, I would have been a billion times worse than Johnny if I was in his shoes. I probably would have been Ryan Leaf. You look at what EJ has had to deal with the last two years in the NFL. Tim Graham asking him if we should draft another QB. And Johnny has been here 3 months and it's non-stop coverage. I bet if we had cameras following EJ every day and night, he would look worse. Maybe not at Johnny's level, but definitely worse. That's all I think. I think Johnny is still stuck in his, "I'm not gonna play by these stupid media rules and let them control me," stage. Which is admirable, if not futile. Edited August 19, 2014 by FireChan
K-9 Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Yep. He's a pretty good pocket passer, too. Has a rifle and quick release and can make quick decisions. He will have to learn to read NFL defenses though, and that is almost always an unknowable (there are guys like Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson where you just knew from their background/experience/pedigree they would be able to do it). I can't agree that he's a pretty good pocket passer at this point. In college he was too often too quick to take off if his first read wasn't there. It was one of the knocks against him coming out. His arm is more than adequate, and there's no question about his athleticism, but there is genuine concern about his football IQ at this point. And it's all moot without that. GO BILLS!!!
34-78-83 Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 (edited) Yep. He's a pretty good pocket passer, too. Has a rifle and quick release and can make quick decisions. He will have to learn to read NFL defenses though, and that is almost always an unknowable (there are guys like Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson where you just knew from their background/experience/pedigree they would be able to do it). Doesn't appear to have ever been a very good pocket passer to me. Certainly didn't watch all of his college games or anything like that, but to me (from the games and highlights I DID watch) he thrived on the broken-down play, and thats it. It's a great skill to have , but not when it's your only NFL level skill. Edited August 19, 2014 by 34-78-83
papazoid Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Manziel will be a BUST. he's not making it in this league.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 I can't agree that he's a pretty good pocket passer at this point. In college he was too often too quick to take off if his first read wasn't there. It was one of the knocks against him coming out. His arm is more than adequate, and there's no question about his athleticism, but there is genuine concern about his football IQ at this point. And it's all moot without that. GO BILLS!!! I should have qualified that because you are right. What I meant to say is that when he just drops back in the pocket and looks and throws, he can be a good pocket passer. He has a very lively arm, decent to good release, and is accurate. He can throw into tight windows. That's all I meant, and then said he will have to learn to read defenses in the NFL. I wasn't counting that quintessential element in saying he is a good pocket passer. I was talking all arm and mechanics not head. And I do agree he takes off too fast too often.
Snorom Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 why would anyone on this forum care about Manziel.. he is not a Bill move on
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