Tiberius Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 The notion that a state sanctioned religion, and guarentees to free exercise of religion as an extension, it most certainly is directly informed by Protestant Christian values as those were the values of the men who wrote and signed it. which values in our Constitution or laws do you attribute to the influence of Protestantism Ill just say before you answer that I think,,,no, I know that religions are nothing more than the values of the people that make them up and Protestantism simply came along because of the society had already created the commercial, legal, literate and upwardly mobile forces that the religion inherited. Protesatntism was created by modernity, not the other way around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 (edited) which values in our Constitution or laws do you attribute to the influence of Protestantism Ill just say before you answer that I think,,,no, I know that religions are nothing more than the values of the people that make them up and Protestantism simply came along because of the society had already created the commercial, legal, literate and upwardly mobile forces that the religion inherited. Protesatntism was created by modernity, not the other way around Tom, go ahead an add "Martin Luther", "the Christian reformation", and "the historical time-line of secularism" to the list. Edited August 13, 2014 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Tom, go ahead an add "Martin Luther", "the Christian reformation", and "the historical time-line of secularism" to the list. In other words you can't answer. I think it's funny that in search for Christian values you show a rejection of Devine Right monarchy. Isn't that a Christian value that the vast majority of----oh, wait for it!!!.....the Founding Fathers themselves ascribed to prior to the their revolutionary moment? And Martin Luther, the Reformation and Calvin and all that were religion adopting to modernity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 In other words you can't answer. I think it's funny that in search for Christian values you show a rejection of Devine Right monarchy. Isn't that a Christian value that the vast majority of----oh, wait for it!!!.....the Founding Fathers themselves ascribed to prior to the their revolutionary moment? And Martin Luther, the Reformation and Calvin and all that were religion adopting to modernity Tom, as a follow-up can you add to the list "the historical time-line of the Enlightenment", and "the Philisophical influences of the Founding Fathers"? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Tom, as a follow-up can you add to the list "the historical time-line of the Enlightenment", and "the Philisophical influences of the Founding Fathers"? Thanks. Hey Tasker, in what part of the Bible is checks and balances in? And how many of the Rights in the Bill of Rights are in any way Christian related? Can't believe you ran away from the Devine Right argument I made, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Hey Tasker, in what part of the Bible is checks and balances in? And how many of the Rights in the Bill of Rights are in any way Christian related? Can't believe you ran away from the Devine Right argument I made, lol. Adam Devine right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Hey Tasker, in what part of the Bible is checks and balances in? And how many of the Rights in the Bill of Rights are in any way Christian related? Can't believe you ran away from the Devine Right argument I made, lol. ... Checks and Balances? ... Checks and Balances are means to an end, not an end unto themselves. They were a safe guard put in place to protect those Inalienable Rights endowed on us by our Creator. The Christian Bible is not a how-to-guide for cobbling together government, it is a teaching history of a moral code that informs those whom subscribe to it. The Bible tells us we have the Right to Life, as life is a gift from God, and as He has given it, it is only for Him to take away. As such, He forbids killing. The Bible tells us we have the Right to Liberty, as most clearly demonstrated through Genesis 3, The Fall of Man. God clearly intends man to have free will. He also tells us we have the Right to pursue our happiness in our Liberty as he sends of out to "be fruitful and multiply". The Bible tells us we have the Right to Property, as He forbade us from theft. The Bible tells us we have the Right to our Religious Beliefs, as He does not exert force on those who choose not to follow Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I don't think anyone needed the bible to help them figure out they didn't want anyone tell them who they can trade with, or they couldnt steal land from the Indians. You make a pretty far leap and leave out the life experiences of a people who didn't need a preacher to tell them what was right or wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I don't think anyone needed the bible to help them figure out they didn't want anyone tell them who they can trade with, or they couldnt steal land from the Indians. You make a pretty far leap and leave out the life experiences of a people who didn't need a preacher to tell them what was right or wrong ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I don't think anyone needed the bible to help them figure out they didn't want anyone tell them who they can trade with, or they couldnt steal land from the Indians. You make a pretty far leap and leave out the life experiences of a people who didn't need a preacher to tell them what was right or wrong Speechless. This ignores literally every piece of history. Like the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I'll just add "history" and "religion" to the list. I see no need to go into detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 ... Checks and Balances? ... Checks and Balances are means to an end, not an end unto themselves. They were a safe guard put in place to protect those Inalienable Rights endowed on us by our Creator. The Christian Bible is not a how-to-guide for cobbling together government, it is a teaching history of a moral code that informs those whom subscribe to it. The Bible tells us we have the Right to Life, as life is a gift from God, and as He has given it, it is only for Him to take away. As such, He forbids killing. The Bible tells us we have the Right to Liberty, as most clearly demonstrated through Genesis 3, The Fall of Man. God clearly intends man to have free will. He also tells us we have the Right to pursue our happiness in our Liberty as he sends of out to "be fruitful and multiply". The Bible tells us we have the Right to Property, as He forbade us from theft. The Bible tells us we have the Right to our Religious Beliefs, as He does not exert force on those who choose not to follow Him. OR...these moral values are evolutionary mechanisms that won out to help advance the species. Do you really need the Bible to tell you that killing is wrong? The principals you speak of are common themes that run through nearly every religion ever. Curious, no? Coincidence? Maybe it's just ingrained in your genetic code. Maybe that's where the men who wrote the Bible got it from. But continue to ascribe all goodness in the world to god and that book if it makes you feel better. It never ceases to amaze me how otherwise intelligent and rational people completely lose their schitt when religion and faith come into play. Perhaps, in the big picture, it doesn't matter, but holy crap! Insanity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 (edited) OR...these moral values are evolutionary mechanisms that won out to help advance the species. Do you really need the Bible to tell you that killing is wrong? The principals you speak of are common themes that run through nearly every religion ever. Curious, no? Coincidence? Maybe it's just ingrained in your genetic code. Maybe that's where the men who wrote the Bible got it from. But continue to ascribe all goodness in the world to god and that book if it makes you feel better. It never ceases to amaze me how otherwise intelligent and rational people completely lose their schitt when religion and faith come into play. Perhaps, in the big picture, it doesn't matter, but holy crap! Insanity... Beyond the neutral argument that law and religion are just subsets of societal development (versus one derived from the other), there's the negative case where the state is constantly struggling to get religion out of the law and public institutions. In the US there are several ongoing examples such as abortion debate, gay rights, and creationism. Edited August 14, 2014 by Joe_the_6_pack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 (edited) The notion that America was not founded on Christian values or by Christians is a modern Athiest myth used to promote an agenda. The truth is that the overwhelming majority of the Founders were Protestant, and that the philisophical inspiration for the founding of our Country, which is Lockean, is inseperable from Locke's Calvinist roots, or as he called them his "particular set of Protestant Christian assumptions". These assumptions were the basis for Locke's opposition to the Divine Right of Kings, in which the monarch was also the head of the State Church, and derived his power from divine elevation. Jefferson, when writing his Declaration, nearly plagerized Locke, sharing the belief that all men "are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights", which, again, directly opposed the authority of the State Church and that of George III on religious grounds. Now, certainly not all of the Founders were Protestant. As you know, Paine certainly wasn't, as he was a Deist or possibly a Unitarian, as was Franklin; Jefferson was, in his untrusting way, an anti-clerical Christian; and Adams was a Unitarian Congregationalist. That small, yet vocal minority, did not, however, speak for the the body of our nations Founding Fathers on the subject. Of the 56 signatories of the Declaration of Independance, the four prior mentioned exempted from this list, 30 were Episcopalian or Anglican, 13 Were Congregationalists, 12 were Presbyterian, 2 were Quaker, and 1 was Catholic. Of the 48 signatories of the Articles of Confederation, only Cornelius Harnett of North Carolina was a Diest. Of the remaining 47, 13 were Episcopalian or Anglican, 9 were Congregationalist, 4 were Presbyterian, 1 was Catholic, 1 was Quaker, 1 was Huguenot, 1 was Lutheran, and the remaining 18 were non-denominational Protestant. Of the 55 Founders present at the Constitutional Convention, only Franklin was a Deist. However, 30 were Episcopalian or Anglican, 16 were Presbyterian, 8 were Congregationalist, 3 were Quaker, 2 were Catholic, 2 were Methodist, 2 were Lutheran, and 2 were Dutch Reformed. As such, while the stated intent of the First Amendment to the Constitution prevents the establishment of a state sanctioned religion, and guarentees to free exercise of religion as an extension, it most certainly is directly informed by Protestant Christian values as those were the values of the men who wrote and signed it. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli 1797 It seems like 100% of the Senate and John Adams disagree with you. Also, you claim many of the Founders belonged to these religions, yet many expressed very strong deistic tendencies. Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and Ethan Allen all showed strong deistic influence in their writing. Even George Washington avoided using the word "god" and instead used the Deist word providence. What religion did I belittle? The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. ... Checks and Balances? ... Checks and Balances are means to an end, not an end unto themselves. They were a safe guard put in place to protect those Inalienable Rights endowed on us by our Creator. The Christian Bible is not a how-to-guide for cobbling together government, it is a teaching history of a moral code that informs those whom subscribe to it. The Bible tells us we have the Right to Life, as life is a gift from God, and as He has given it, it is only for Him to take away. As such, He forbids killing. The Bible tells us we have the Right to Liberty, as most clearly demonstrated through Genesis 3, The Fall of Man. God clearly intends man to have free will. He also tells us we have the Right to pursue our happiness in our Liberty as he sends of out to "be fruitful and multiply". The Bible tells us we have the Right to Property, as He forbade us from theft. The Bible tells us we have the Right to our Religious Beliefs, as He does not exert force on those who choose not to follow Him. The Bible also tells us we have a right to slaves. It also tells us that women are inferior, and shouldn't be in a position of authority over a man. Edited August 14, 2014 by Fingon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 (edited) As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. http://en.wikipedia....eaty_of_Tripoli 1797 It seems like 100% of the Senate and John Adams disagree with you. ... The Founders restated that the government of The United States was not founded as a theocratic state in a treaty. This is nothing more than a external reaffirmation of the First Amendment guarantee against the establishment of a State Religion, written to assuage a foriegn entity, assuring them that when representitives of the United States sought them out, they were doing so as a national representitive, not a divine one. This was a vitally important distinction to make for this particular treaty, as the treaty was being made with a theocracy that was otherwise hostile towards members of other faiths. Also, you claim many of the Founders belonged to these religions, yet many expressed very strong deistic tendencies. Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and Ethan Allen all showed strong deistic influence in their writing. Even George Washington avoided using the word "god" and instead used the Deist word providence. And yet so few expressed the notion that they were Diests, opting instead to practice and espouse their faith through action, speech, and writing. Fewer even than your listed 8, who, even if they were all Diest, would have been a diminishingly small minority in a body of more than 150, of whom more than 80% were Protestant. It would behoove you to actually learn your history, rather than cherry picking, and taking out of any context, the portions which makes them convenient to your agenda. Edited August 14, 2014 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 OR...these moral values are evolutionary mechanisms that won out to help advance the species. Do you really need the Bible to tell you that killing is wrong? Do we really need LAWS to tell is it's wrong, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 Do we really need LAWS to tell is it's wrong, too? What you do need are laws to ascribe penalties to unwanted behaviors, which fundamentally invalidates 10 commandments as "laws" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 What you do need are laws to ascribe penalties to unwanted behaviors, which fundamentally invalidates 10 commandments as "laws" No one's saying they're laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 No one's saying they're laws. It is a historical document. It's one of the first written legal codes. The only one I can think of that's older is the Code of Hammurabi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Do you understand what "historical" means, moron? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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