Mr. WEO Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 There hasn't been much if any availability. It is a bit of a risky proposition to price out the people there and hope to fill them with these deep pocketed Canadian companies. It's kind of the bird in the hand philosophy. It's probably something that can certainly be explored with greater pricing tiers and ranges in a new stadium. I see what you are saying. People here have often posted about wealthy corporate suite coveters in Southern Ontario. If they really existed, I would think that Russ would know all about them (would have courted them, in fact). I the demand was truly there, I can't see how Russ wouldn't just jack up the price on the suites and squeeze out the lower paying customer for the higher paying one. I'm thinking that these customers aren't in existence yet. People here are making assumptions.
K D Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 latest Forbes report is out...Bills worth $935 Million
LabattBlue Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 (edited) the current UB stadium basically makes games unwatchable. I have tried. It stinks. I would love to go. I like the MAC. Its the worst stadium I have ever been in. Worse than the St Pete Thunderdome for a Tampa Lightning game. I agree. Blow that thing up, move the track and field facilities somewhere else on campus, and then build a 30,000 seat stadium, with one end being open, and have the stands right on top of the field. I don't know what I dislike more about the current stadium, the track surrounding the field, or those embarrassing endzone bleachers which were thrown in to meet some minimum capacity MAC mandate, and then the only time they were ever filled was when Tony Hawk did an exhibition at one end of the stadium several years ago. Edited August 20, 2014 by LabattBlue
K D Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 latest Forbes report is out...Bills worth $935 Million
Kirby Jackson Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 (edited) I see what you are saying. People here have often posted about wealthy corporate suite coveters in Southern Ontario. If they really existed, I would think that Russ would know all about them (would have courted them, in fact). I the demand was truly there, I can't see how Russ wouldn't just jack up the price on the suites and squeeze out the lower paying customer for the higher paying one. I'm thinking that these customers aren't in existence yet. People here are making assumptions. Either way it is a risky move and the need for that extra nonshared revenue hasn't been there yet (I think that they were 20th in revenue). As the gaps grow between the larger and smaller market teams you may see the Bills take a few more aggressive or riskier chances. A new stadium is the perfect cover for that. It's tough to irritate any client spending $100k plus annually (low end estimate). There probably are some opportunities for $300k plus suites (which as Bandit said is a HUGE reason for the Toronto regionalization). P.S. I apologize if this conversation has steered into a different direction. I do think that it is an important piece of the puzzle moving forward. I think that it's safe to assume that we will have the team in WNY. The next question is "what does that look like." Edited August 20, 2014 by Kirby Jackson
LabattBlue Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 Even 25K at a UB game 6 times a year is 6 more events added to the calendar. I could see a new stadium used 50+ times a year. PTR...I can't see that many(50+) substantial events, not counting high school football or like events where there are 2000 people in the stadium. Maybe 25-30, but IMO even that would be a reach.
Mr. WEO Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 Either way it is a risky move and the need for that extra nonshared revenue hasn't been there yet (I think that they were 20th in revenue). As the gaps grow between the larger and smaller market teams you may see the Bills take a few more aggressive or riskier chances. A new stadium is the perfect cover for that. It's tough to irritate any client spending $100k plus annually (low end estimate). There probably are some opportunities for $300k plus suites (which as Bandit said is a HUGE reason for the Toronto regionalization). The need for extra nonshared revenue was never an issue for Ralph. But unless the next buyer is all cash (and no stadium contribution), revenue to service debt will be a huge concern for that person or group. Also, under the best of circumstances, a new stadium is years away. It would be best to cultivate these Toronto high rollers now, at a "Ralph Wilson premium" suite pricing, as opposed to jumping right to the 300,000 new stadium price for a new suite tennant. In a new stadium, current suite tennants may be priced out if this demand exists in Ontario. No owner is going to give a "home town discount" for a current tennant.
Kirby Jackson Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 The need for extra nonshared revenue was never an issue for Ralph. But unless the next buyer is all cash (and no stadium contribution), revenue to service debt will be a huge concern for that person or group. Also, under the best of circumstances, a new stadium is years away. It would be best to cultivate these Toronto high rollers now, at a "Ralph Wilson premium" suite pricing, as opposed to jumping right to the 300,000 new stadium price for a new suite tennant. In a new stadium, current suite tennants may be priced out if this demand exists in Ontario. No owner is going to give a "home town discount" for a current tennant. Agree, the cultivating them is a bit if a double edged sword. If you get them in at $120k (or whatever) they are going to be tough to get to $300K later on. At the same time as you increase the pricing now you may lose some people that never jump back on board. It is a really, really fine line. If I were the Bills I wouldn't try to sell them an equivalent product. I would probably try to get them 4 seats in the new super suite. My staff would work to make sure that their demand exceeds their supply and walk them up the ladder. The debt service point is a great one and will obviously change things. That is reason number 10,000,000,000 why Pegula is best for the community.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 (edited) The current lease is a publicly available document and does not prevent the team from being moved to Toronto in 2020. The trust document is not a public document. Until reputable journalists reported leaks concerning the trust's preference for bidders who will keep the Bills in Buffalo after 2019, EVERYONE was clueless about the reality. i was under the impression, from several sources, including I believe Mark Poloncarz, that the lease all but does prevent the team from moving to Toronto in 2020. That they couldn't just pay the $28m fine and move the team in that window, they would have to win a virtually unwinable court case in Erie County in front of an Erie County Judge just for the right to pay the $28m fine. And only if they won the unwinabe case could they then move, and only IF the NFL allowed them to. Is that not true to your understanding of the lease? Edited August 20, 2014 by Kelly the Dog
PromoTheRobot Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 There isn't a suite capacity issue there is a suite revenue issue. If you start to raise prices and lose people you will have some of these larger Toronto companies to backfill (at least in theory). Keep in mind that Canada does not allow businesses a deduction for entertainment. So they don't subsidize that stuff with tax dollars like in the USA.
Kirby Jackson Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 Keep in mind that Canada does not allow businesses a deduction for entertainment. So they don't subsidize that stuff with tax dollars like in the USA. That is certainly a factor that can't be overlooked. There is still a market for them through as evidenced by their other properties. Good point (and important one) PTR.
bbb Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 Wow, I didn't know that. That's a big deal. Our general ticket prices would be lower if that were true in the US.
BillnutinHouston Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 Absolutely that will be the case. It will be done by seniority but when you go to pick out the same seat that you used to have it is now $2k for the season and not $730 (or whatever) so you slide down to something that fits your budget better. Those then will get back filled. The same will be the case with suites. You may sacrifice some on location and/or benefits to fit your budget. Someone else will move into the higher priced options. Either that will happen or people will absorb the large price increases. There will be options for everybody I am sure but there will be more tiers in terms of pricing and benefits. The gap between the cheapest and most expensive tickets will be WAY bigger than it is now. At least this is what I would do if tasked with pricing the stadium. I think the Minnesota Vikings' new stadium web pages are enlightening/instructive in some of these areas. I must be some kind of "stadium nerd" because I found their presentation of the different price/amenity levels fascinating.
Buffalo_Stampede Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 i was under the impression, from several sources, including I believe Mark Poloncarz, that the lease all but does prevent the team from moving to Toronto in 2020. That they couldn't just pay the $28m fine and move the team in that window, they would have to win a virtually unwinable court case in Erie County in front of an Erie County Judge just for the right to pay the $28m fine. And only if they won the unwinabe case could they then move, and only IF the NFL allowed them to. Is that not true to your understanding of the lease? doesnt even include the stadium issues. Toronto has no stadium. they wouldnt even be able to discuss an NFL quality stadium until the lease was up.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 21, 2014 Posted August 21, 2014 doesnt even include the stadium issues. Toronto has no stadium. they wouldnt even be able to discuss an NFL quality stadium until the lease was up. In that case, I think they could. After winning the bid (which is impossible) they could discuss playing in a different stadium after the lease is up eight years from now, but no discussions about playing in a different stadium than the Ralph until then. Meaning if the stadium was built in five years in Toronto, they couldn't discuss playing there for three more years. That is how it has been explained to me at least.
Reed83HOF Posted August 21, 2014 Posted August 21, 2014 latest Forbes report is out...Bills worth $935 Million Will find out the Bills real worth in about 2 weeks.....
BRAWNDO Posted August 21, 2014 Posted August 21, 2014 Will find out the Bills real worth in about 2 weeks..... 1.3 Billon. Pegula sets the record for most paid for a NFL Franchise and curries favor with the other NFL Owners by increasing the value of their franchises
Who is Yuri? Posted August 21, 2014 Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Who says money can't buy friends? Edited August 21, 2014 by Franz Kafka
Go Kiko go Posted August 21, 2014 Posted August 21, 2014 i was under the impression, from several sources, including I believe Mark Poloncarz, that the lease all but does prevent the team from moving to Toronto in 2020. That they couldn't just pay the $28m fine and move the team in that window, they would have to win a virtually unwinable court case in Erie County in front of an Erie County Judge just for the right to pay the $28m fine. And only if they won the unwinabe case could they then move, and only IF the NFL allowed them to. Is that not true to your understanding of the lease? Unfortunately that's not the case (but that is the correct with regard to what would happen if the Bills tried to move before that date; the Bills couldn't just pay the $400M liquidated damages amount and walk away--the county and state would ask a judge to bar the Bills from playing anywhere else during the lease term, and would have a decent chance of prevailing). The lease provides that the Bills have an option to terminate the lease in 2020. In other words, the parties agreed that the Bills may terminate the lease at that time (for a $28M fee), just like if you agreed with a landlord that you would sign a one-year lease for an apartment, but that you have the right to terminate the lease with 60 days notice. The lease provides that "the Bills shall have the right to terminate this 2013 Stadium Lease effective at 11:59 p.m., Buffalo, New York time as of the Termination Date, provided that the Bills have first (a) delivered to the County and the ECSC, no later than 12:00 noon Buffalo, New York time on the Termination Notice Date, written notice of the Bills' intention to terminate this 2013 Stadium Lease . . . and (b) paid to the ECSC, before the Termination Date, the Termination Fee." Where "Termination Date" is July 30, 2020; "Termination Notice Date" is February 28, 2020; and "Termination Fee" is $28,363,500.
The Dean Posted August 21, 2014 Posted August 21, 2014 Unfortunately that's not the case (but that is the correct with regard to what would happen if the Bills tried to move before that date; the Bills couldn't just pay the $400M liquidated damages amount and walk away--the county and state would ask a judge to bar the Bills from playing anywhere else during the lease term, and would have a decent chance of prevailing). The lease provides that the Bills have an option to terminate the lease in 2020. In other words, the parties agreed that the Bills may terminate the lease at that time (for a $28M fee), just like if you agreed with a landlord that you would sign a one-year lease for an apartment, but that you have the right to terminate the lease with 60 days notice. The lease provides that "the Bills shall have the right to terminate this 2013 Stadium Lease effective at 11:59 p.m., Buffalo, New York time as of the Termination Date, provided that the Bills have first (a) delivered to the County and the ECSC, no later than 12:00 noon Buffalo, New York time on the Termination Notice Date, written notice of the Bills' intention to terminate this 2013 Stadium Lease . . . and (b) paid to the ECSC, before the Termination Date, the Termination Fee." Where "Termination Date" is July 30, 2020; "Termination Notice Date" is February 28, 2020; and "Termination Fee" is $28,363,500. That is what I understood. Fortunately, The Trust had different marching orders, or at least proceeded to make sure the commitment was long term. Will find out the Bills real worth in about 2 weeks..... Don't be surprised if you don't. Binding bids are expected to close then. There may be more negotiation after than, it seems. Then they have to make their decision. It will be much later until they officially announce it, of course. But we may start hearing rumors (what happened to that non disclosure? ) but don't freak out if the process takes a bit longer to play out.
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