Wayne Cubed Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) Ok, lets interject some pictures into this discussion, seeing as people seem to be going off just memory and I'm not sure how much you can really pay attention to in the 3-5 seconds a play takes. First batted ball: The first batted ball is from the shot gun. Manuel does a quick 3-step drop and attempts to get the ball to a wide open Watkins, who is his first read. Notice the time on the clock, this is a view just as the ball is snapped. Here's a view after the 3-step drop: Notice how Watkins, is in fact wide open. Why would Manuel look off a wide open receiver? He's open, it's a 3-step drop, quick pass, the decision should be to throw the ball to Watkins. There is no staring the receiver down on a play this quick.You can also see Kiwanuka has already disengaged from Urbik, freeing his one hand up to bat the ball down. The 2nd batted ball was from under center. Again, quick 3-step drop and again, the first read is wide open. As there is no saftey help on that side of the field, there is no one to "look off". Smith is running a 5 yard curl route towards the sideline. After his drop, Manuel turns and looks at his first read, which is Smith: Continued onto next post.... Edited August 5, 2014 by Wayne Cubed
Wayne Cubed Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) Continued... Here's a shot as Manuel has decided to go to Smith, who is again, open. As you can see there is no OL engaged with JPP, he has a free shot at Manuel. Why there isn't a lineman blocking JPP, I have no idea. And this one is for the crowd that says EJ stares down his receivers and doesn't look people off. Common theme, quick 3-step drop, first read is Watkins, who you can see is covered. Also the LB is drifting towards Watkins, following Manuels eyes. Seeing that Watkins is covered, and the space that the LB was occupying is now open, Manual looks to his 2nd receiver Smith, who is running his route towards where that LB was. Smith is open, catches the ball for a nice 9 yard pickup and a first down. IMO, I think people are making a bigger deal out of the batted balls and "staring down" the receivers. Yes, the last pass attempt to Watkins on 3rd and 11, Manuel did stare him down and it was almost picked off. To me, that seemed more like a forced throw to get Watkins the ball. Please feel free to discuss further... Edited August 5, 2014 by Wayne Cubed
BringBackFergy Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 I didn't think EJ looked the part of an up and coming great (or very good) QB. One thing that bothers me about EJ is he never seems to gun the ball 15-20 yards down the middle of the field. He either dumps it off, throws a short WR screen, or lobs a high ball timing pattern down the sidelines and hope the receiver comes down with it. Is it just me? I see Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Luck, etc.. throwing darts down the middle of the field all the time! How come our big QB, big big hands and a big arm never does it? Scott Chandler was not playing.
eball Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 Nice job Wayne Cubed. The film don't lie. And the play you didn't diagram -- the end zone throw to Caveman Mike -- was a beautiful toss.
Wayne Cubed Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 Nice job Wayne Cubed. The film don't lie. And the play you didn't diagram -- the end zone throw to Caveman Mike -- was a beautiful toss. I'm no expert, but I think people are quick to judge, without actually looking back at the play. What I did is also way over-analyzing for a pre season game, but people see what they want to see.
bills-fan in arizona Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 I'll say one thing. He's twice the QB than some people around here are Bills fans. Sorry. Right I'm a terrible fan because I point out what I see. I love the bills bud. But EJ is going to continue to struggle, it's not easy to fix the issues he has. I really hope I'm wrong.
Beerball Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 Agreed! So, it would be a good thing for the second QB on the depth chart to be cut? How is that possible?
Fadingpain Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 Yes, the photo analysis clearly demonstrates that EJ is going to blossom into a perfect combination of Kelly, Marino, and Elway. We all need to relax.
stony Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 Yes, the photo analysis clearly demonstrates that EJ is going to blossom into a perfect combination of Kelly, Marino, and Elway. We all need to relax. No, but it does provide context and inject some sorely needed perspective into this debate.
Beerball Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 Nice lively discussion........but I think that we all have to remember not to put too much into this sample. Both teams only put in the most basic of game plans. They're not going to show anything in the first preseason game, and probably not the full playbook until the first game of the year. In fact, I would be surprised if they spend much time looking at the film of this game at all. Good. Simple game plan...should see flawless execution. Wow. I'm surprised by the negativity from some of the posters. I'm not sold on EJ as the franchise QB of the future. But, then again, I'm not going to condemn the guy because of seven passes in two series of work. Hackett and some players say EJ has taken a big step forward this year. Maybe it's just happy talk. I don't know. But two series doesn't prove the optimists wrong. I'm not seeing any condemnation, maybe you can point it out to me. I see concerns that have carried over from year 1 and will continue until EJ proves that he has improved.
Fadingpain Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 No, but it does provide context and inject some sorely needed perspective into this debate. I hear you. But evaluating play in a complex, fluid environment like an NFL football field requires more than some still shots. EJ's football IQ is low; he does not consistently see the whole field; he thinks things through in slow motion relative to NFL pace, and despite his physical attributes, he is mechanically inconsistent. But he is also a great physical specimen with excellent size, running ability, and arm strength. This combination of assets and liabilities will yield frustrating, inconsistent play and will prevent him from emerging as an NFL talent as time goes on. We'll find out soon enough if I'm right or wrong, though we already have way more evidence than some think.
Beerball Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 Tuel still stinks. We have an overall QB issue. EJ is unknown. Thad is adequate at best and doesn't seem to have progressed. Tuel is a second rate Trent Edwards who was third rate. Hammer meet nail. Not too much then? toeing the line maybe?
Dorkington Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 I love that someone posts pictures disproving certain opinions... and yet he's still wrong, because... well, just because. This place.
Beerball Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 I love how anyone that doesn't agree that EJ is terrible is an "apologist". I'm catching up on this thread after being away for 24 hours...as always the overreactions are on both sides of the aisle. I'm a hater because I have concerns and you are an apologist or kool aid drinker. It's always easier to call someone a silly name than accept that they are offering what is to them a truthful opinion. I'll say one thing. He's twice the QB than some people around here are Bills fans. Sorry. sorry, this is flat out wrong.
stony Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 I hear you. But evaluating play in a complex, fluid environment like an NFL football field requires more than some still shots. EJ's football IQ is low; he does not consistently see the whole field; he thinks things through in slow motion relative to NFL pace, and despite his physical attributes, he is mechanically inconsistent. But he is also a great physical specimen with excellent size, running ability, and arm strength. This combination of assets and liabilities will yield frustrating, inconsistent play and will prevent him from emerging as an NFL talent as time goes on. We'll find out soon enough if I'm right or wrong, though we already have way more evidence than some think. On the contrary, most people think he has a very high "football IQ." One of the first compliments generally paid his way is how intelligent he is. Overall, I see your point, and I think you're dead on with his mechanical inconsistencies. But I think the silver lining is that these can be corrected with good coaching. He had no QB coach his rookie year, so I seriously question how much time he spent going through QB specific drills. One thing I noticed in the game was how quick his back-drop was. Minor, I know. But it leads me to think that some of these mechanical issues were addressed. Lets hope so!!!
Beerball Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 This can all be solved by saying, "in my opinion," or "IMO" for the young, lazy contingent. In my opinion, it's way too early to tell if EJ is the real deal or not. I challenge anyone to tell me who, after 9 full NFL starts, proved his worth in the league. Not hype. Not being a media darling. Not being on magazine covers. Statistically speaking ... especially wins (although wins are not a QB stat; they are a team stat). In my opinion, people who say "EJ is our savior," are wrong; people who say, "EJ is a bust," are wrong." It's too damn early to tell. But those who say, "EJ is our savior," are being hopeful and optimistic. Those who say, "EJ is a bust," are being skeptical because they've been burned for so many years by so many QBs who gave so much false hope over the years. And there's not a God damn thing wrong with either one. There is no right or wrong at this juncture. It's not like we're in year four of the EJ Manuel project. He hasn't even completed year one. Chill the !@#$ out. It's just football. And EJ hasn't even gotten started! In your opinion maybe.
GG Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 Hammer meet nail And that's why it's maddening that Bills went into camp with the exact same QBs they finished the last year with.
BillsVet Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 IMO, Buffalo's gone out of their way since Flutie-Johnson to avoid QB controversies. I recognize there was sort of one when they picked Edwards with Losman on the roster in 2007, but otherwise it's been one guy and that was it. Even when Fitz was signed as a UFA in 2009 they were clear that he wasn't a threat to Edwards as the starter. Without a proven starter at the position and everyone over the years echoing the mantra of "competition" it's amazing how little there's actually been at QB for the BIlls. I hope EJ works out but if not, the cupboard's pretty bare.
Ronin Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 EJ looked calm and in control.. Would you say he looked "poised?" I've noticed that few people are using that term. I guess it ran its course a few years ago. Yes, the photo analysis clearly demonstrates that EJ is going to blossom into a perfect combination of Kelly, Marino, and Elway. We all need to relax. LOL
thebandit27 Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 Ok, lets interject some pictures into this discussion, seeing as people seem to be going off just memory and I'm not sure how much you can really pay attention to in the 3-5 seconds a play takes. First batted ball: The first batted ball is from the shot gun. Manuel does a quick 3-step drop and attempts to get the ball to a wide open Watkins, who is his first read. Notice the time on the clock, this is a view just as the ball is snapped. Here's a view after the 3-step drop: Notice how Watkins, is in fact wide open. Why would Manuel look off a wide open receiver? He's open, it's a 3-step drop, quick pass, the decision should be to throw the ball to Watkins. There is no staring the receiver down on a play this quick.You can also see Kiwanuka has already disengaged from Urbik, freeing his one hand up to bat the ball down. The 2nd batted ball was from under center. Again, quick 3-step drop and again, the first read is wide open. As there is no saftey help on that side of the field, there is no one to "look off". Smith is running a 5 yard curl route towards the sideline. After his drop, Manuel turns and looks at his first read, which is Smith: Continued onto next post.... Continued... Here's a shot as Manuel has decided to go to Smith, who is again, open. As you can see there is no OL engaged with JPP, he has a free shot at Manuel. Why there isn't a lineman blocking JPP, I have no idea. And this one is for the crowd that says EJ stares down his receivers and doesn't look people off. Common theme, quick 3-step drop, first read is Watkins, who you can see is covered. Also the LB is drifting towards Watkins, following Manuels eyes. Seeing that Watkins is covered, and the space that the LB was occupying is now open, Manual looks to his 2nd receiver Smith, who is running his route towards where that LB was. Smith is open, catches the ball for a nice 9 yard pickup and a first down. IMO, I think people are making a bigger deal out of the batted balls and "staring down" the receivers. Yes, the last pass attempt to Watkins on 3rd and 11, Manuel did stare him down and it was almost picked off. To me, that seemed more like a forced throw to get Watkins the ball. Please feel free to discuss further... Thanks for doing the work Wayne. I think this brings the much-needed context to the discussion. Yes, EJ really does need to look off the coverage when appropriate; no, he's not consistently failing to do so as some imply. Yes, the photo analysis clearly demonstrates that EJ is going to blossom into a perfect combination of Kelly, Marino, and Elway. We all need to relax. How can you possibly draw that conclusion from what Wayne posted and others are saying? toeing the line maybe? So I found the line? Took me long enough I'm catching up on this thread after being away for 24 hours...as always the overreactions are on both sides of the aisle. I'm a hater because I have concerns and you are an apologist or kool aid drinker. It's always easier to call someone a silly name than accept that they are offering what is to them a truthful opinion. I realize that's the case, and that's pretty much what I'm condemning. It's not okay to blast someone else for providing an opinion, and it's more than not okay to behave as though yelling louder or stating your opinion as fact makes your take more valid than anyone else's. Side note: "kool aid drinker" is one of the silliest names out there IMO. As you all know, the appropriate "Gentlemen's diss" is butt-face.
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