EJ looked calm and in control..

[BillsVet]

You said all the equivalent stuff about CJ Spiller for two years, too. Said all the equivalent stuff about Aaron Williams, too. Said all the equivalent stuff about Leodis McKelvin, too. Colt fans and most Bills fans said all the equivalent stuff about Jerry Hughes, too.

 

And yeah, you can say it's different with quarterbacks because you can just tell. Well you can't.

 

Granted, 95% of all players who look like they suck do indeed suck and continue to suck. Most of them don't have the talent in the first place. And at least 50% of the players with a lot of talent who look like they suck continue to suck.

 

You need more time to evaluate EJ.

 

A massive conflation of the argument about players "sucking." The ratio of first rounders not being even Pro Bowl selections is greater than 5%, so this is easily a huge reach.

 

CJ Spiller has 2 good seasons under his belt out of 4. He hasn't lived up to being a top half of the first round pick. Aaron Williams, after a position change, has 1 solid season in 3 NFL seasons. Jerry Hughes has 1 solid season out of 4 in the NFL.

 

And it's comparing those guys, who play positions not as crucial to a team's success or failure, with a first round QB. I think the signs are there with Manuel that he's struggling. You need time to evaluate, but the early returns aren't good right now.

[Agent 91]

I thought EJ was lousy. He doesnt find passing lanes equaling batted down passes. Cmon man shuffle your feet a little and get it through there. Not to mention overthrowing watkins by ten yards down the sideline. All in all a poor outing by him. Hopefully he improves, but some things you either have or you dont.

 

Definitely wasnt 10 yards. Not even close

 

I'm pretty sure our head coach called out the O-line in being responsible for 2 of the 3 tipped passes at the line. Henderson mysteriously disengaged his opponent early on the one. Not sure on the other. Also pretty sure our head coach was a former NFL lineman. The one tipped ball to be concerned of was the near interception. Ej needs to see that guy sliding into coverage. Carry on the rants I guess ....

 

As I said in another post. EJ knew his and Watkins work was done after that pass. He just wanted to try to get Sammy a ball in game. So he forced it. I hope EJ doesn't make that pass in real game scenario. I honestly would believe he told Watkins in the huddle. Im gonna find you. I mean the linebacker had drop coverage on top of a cb amd safety already dedicated to him. There was no chance of that ball getting through. I will say... The way Woods looked, I think teams will have to play Sammy more honestly because with Woods and Sammy on the field at the same time. Its almost like pick your poison.

 

 

 

Let's retreat to the tried & true method of attacking the posters. How many of the best analysts played the game? Did Joel Buchsbaum ever leave his mother's basement? Yet he was one of the best analysts ever.

 

There's a lot to gleam from EJ's body language in trying to predict his potential. Right now he's still too much of a robotic terminator to be an effective QB. To steal someone else's analysis, you can almost sense the circuits processing each movement - step to line, take handoff, step back, scan field, throw ball.

 

All good QBs have a much more noticeable fluidity to their game. He just doesn't look as natural playing the position as he should be and I don't know if this is something that can be fixed. It's not just fixing a throwing motion or correcting a quirky habit. It's almost his entire game needs to be reworked.

 

You don't need to have played the game to recognize his flaws and question whether there will be enough time to fix them, if they can be fixed at all.

 

Not trying to attack you but I was just thinking... EJ just received a qb coach. Maybe he is doing his "homework". His robotic nature may be him trying to think his way through what he has been taught. I dont see many people/ if any who mentioned this component. Maybe we should have drafted someone else. I didnt know how to feel about his pick. And I also think they reached for qb in a down draft, but I feel like right now is square one because of the new coach reworking his game. Its just not natural yet.

[Fadingpain]

I think most posters tend to go to the extremes on the EJ issue. Posters are either foolishly in love with EJ and make excuses for his bad performances at every chance or they have foolishly given up any hope and feel EJ sucks now and will always suck. The reality is that most Bills fans, including me, fall in between.

 

My hope was that the coaches, GM and FO would do the same. In other words, teach, develop and train EJ, but have a contingency plan in case he doesn't develop or isn't the guy, my fear is that instead of doing that, the HC, GM and FO has taken the approach that EJ is indeed the guy and we'll put all our eggs in his basket. IMO, they are acting the part of those posters that are foolishly in love with EJ and they shouldn't, in other words, where is the Bills contingency plan if EJ isn't the guy ??

 

They don't have one.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

A massive conflation of the argument about players "sucking." The ratio of first rounders not being even Pro Bowl selections is greater than 5%, so this is easily a huge reach.

 

CJ Spiller has 2 good seasons under his belt out of 4. He hasn't lived up to being a top half of the first round pick. Aaron Williams, after a position change, has 1 solid season in 3 NFL seasons. Jerry Hughes has 1 solid season out of 4 in the NFL.

 

And it's comparing those guys, who play positions not as crucial to a team's success or failure, with a first round QB. I think the signs are there with Manuel that he's struggling. You need time to evaluate, but the early returns aren't good right now.

That's what I said. You need time to evaluate Manual. All of those other guys I mentioned were high draft choices that had a lot of talent and people thought they sucked when they did not suck. I thought Aaron Williams sucked myself but I turned out to be wrong. The point is that you don't know right now that he sucks. It's an opinion and a lot of opinions are wrong about talented players. It may turn out to be true, because a lot of players, especially quarterbacks suck. But it is not a fact that EJ sucks after he has played 10 games not to mention all of the time he missed and cluster fuk around him.

 

IMO, to your point about the other players, if you still think that CJ, Hughes, and Williams are not very good players, you suck. J/k. It's abundantly clear that they have matured, settled down, put at the position where their talent is best utilized, and are high quality players that are extremely unlikely to revert back to their former sucktitude. That doesn't mean stars, just good nfl players who could well be stars. I'm extremely excited about Williams in particular.

[Fadingpain]

IMHO, any team without a franchise QB ought to keep drafting QB's, until they get it right. Not necessarily 1st rounders, but perhaps 3rd or 4th rounders. Until a franchise finds THE QB, all else is irrelevant.

 

This is 100% true, except for the extremely rare situation where you put up the one of the top 5 defenses of all time. Then a mediocre QB who is a game manager, at best, can be good enough.

 

Our defense looks good at the moment and it has improved in recent years. That's all a positive. But we are not the Seahawks nor are we the 1985 Chicago Bears.

 

Keep looking for a QB Buffalo! You don't have what you need yet!

 

Which begs the question, who's hiring all the failed GM's at OBD? And are those people held responsible? Because making decisions out of desperation is not a "vision" for success, yet that's what the Bills have done with their 1st round picks in 2013 and 2014.

 

If Manuel doesn't succeed in 2014 I think a new owner needs to clean house. That is, if the bidding on the team gets finished anytime soon. Only time will tell.

 

Sleep well my friend with no worries. The new owner is 100% on the way. I guarantee that. And when he arrives, house will be cleaned. We are on the brink of an entirely new era with the Bills, but we don't realize it yet. A lot of these types of debates occurring in this thread are on the brink of becoming moot. And that is a very good thing, I assure you.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

Sleep well my friend with no worries. The new owner is 100% on the way. I guarantee that. And when he arrives, house will be cleaned. We are on the brink of an entirely new era with the Bills, but we don't realize it yet. A lot of these types of debates occurring in this thread are on the brink of becoming moot. And that is a very good thing, I assure you.

The house isn't completely dirty, far from it, and when they new owner comes in, he isn't likely to clean it. If the bills are decent this year, I doubt very much happens at all outside of the kids being told to clean their room.

 

If the Bills tank, which probably isn't going to happen IMO, they still may be given one more shot (At least Whaley). Coaches are usually given three years, although of course that is not always the case. Marrone is likely to be given that chance, new owner or not, and especially if the new owner is Terry Pegula, which it is going to be.

[eball]

The house isn't completely dirty, far from it, and when they new owner comes in, he isn't likely to clean it. If the bills are decent this year, I doubt very much happens at all outside of the kids being told to clean their room.

 

If the Bills tank, which probably isn't going to happen IMO, they still may be given one more shot (At least Whaley). Coaches are usually given three years, although of course that is not always the case. Marrone is likely to be given that chance, new owner or not, and especially if the new owner is Terry Pegula, which it is going to be.

 

I hope you are right. I'm very optimistic about what Whaley has been able to accomplish with this roster -- QB uncertainty aside -- and would be disappointed to see a "blow up" right off the bat. This isn't an aging team with a core of superstars on their last legs; it's an up-and-comer.

[mannc]

Last year...Smith, hands down no question about it. The Bills nibbled and they lost out. Smith was the guy that they wanted but they let the Chiefs beat them.

 

No question that Smith was the best guy on the market last year, but would you really have wanted the Bills to have given up two second round picks for him? It certainly would have changed the way the Bills approached last year's and this year's draft and it's impossible to say how that would have worked out. Although I am a Smith fan, I was surprised that SF got two seconds for him.

 

This has been debated to death, but to recap.

 

2013

 

Bills knew they were drafting a QB early in 2013.

The 2013 QB class was very weak, so it was very important to have a half way decent QB on the roster

Bills bungled the Fitzpatrick restructuring

By the time they moved on to the position, only Kolb was available, with many more question marks than answers.

Bills cut Tarvaris before camp even rolled on, which bit them in the arse one month later

 

2014

Knowing the limitations of the 4 QBs on the roster at the end of 2013, the team elects to go with the same crew into 2014.

Zero effort to bring in another vet or use a mid level draft pick on a developmental QB in case EJ strikes out

 

And here we are, again, with zero room for error.

That pretty well sums up the situation. After what happened last year, it is mind-boggling that the front office did nothing this year to shore up the position, even in a year in which there were seeming a lot of talented QBs available in the middle to late rounds of the draft (Mettenberger, Murray, Boyd, McCarron, etc.). The Jets, who were in a similar position QB-wise, signed Michael Vick and drafted Boyd in the sixth round. The Bills--nothing. Even the Patriots, with arguably the best QB situation in the league, invested a second round pick on a QB.

[BillsVet]

That's what I said. You need time to evaluate Manual. All of those other guys I mentioned were high draft choices that had a lot of talent and people thought they sucked when they did not suck. I thought Aaron Williams sucked myself but I turned out to be wrong. The point is that you don't know right now that he sucks. It's an opinion and a lot of opinions are wrong about talented players. It may turn out to be true, because a lot of players, especially quarterbacks suck. But it is not a fact that EJ sucks after he has played 10 games not to mention all of the time he missed and cluster fuk around him.

 

IMO, to your point about the other players, if you still think that CJ, Hughes, and Williams are not very good players, you suck. J/k. It's abundantly clear that they have matured, settled down, put at the position where their talent is best utilized, and are high quality players that are extremely unlikely to revert back to their former sucktitude. That doesn't mean stars, just good nfl players who could well be stars. I'm extremely excited about Williams in particular.

 

When discussing EJ I don't consider him to completely "suck" because it's way too early for that kind of assessment. But it doesn't help that a slew of guys are playing QB at a decent level who have 1-2 years under their belts like Wilson, Kaepernick, Tannehill, Dalton and Foles. These guys were available in 2011-12 when Buddy Nix ridiculously decided they couldn't challenge Fitz. There's nothing I hate worse than seeing guys play well at a position like QB Buffalo could have selected.

 

Buffalo had time with guys like Spiller (who plays a position of increasingly less importance) Aaron Williams (who needed a position change to excel) and Hughes (a reclamation project that has worked out for 1 season so far) that they don't have with Manuel as a QB and the guy who the latest rebuild centers around. Fair or unfair, this 2nd year QB does not have 3 years to show he can play in the NFL. The nature of the business means that he's gotta sink or swim more quickly than we'd like. And, based on early returns, he's not the guy who looks like he can win 10 games in the NFL, i.e. a playoff record.

[John from Riverside]

Where did I say it did? i said for me buying onto QB's drafted by the bIlls post Edwards failure is not an option for me.

the bIlls suck at evaluating QB's and Buddy Nix has his stamp on the past two starters. Including the reach that is EJ.

 

That aught to keep ya thinkin for awhile. maybe even enlightening!

 

We absolutely do not know if EJ is a reach yet......

[thebandit27]

 

 

Every owner in the NFL is aging, or else they're dead.

Ralph was not cheap, as many folks have documented repeatedly over time. He spent his money unwisely with regard to football decisions, but spend it he did.

Being in the building probably doesn't make a lick of difference. Ralph was well aware of what was going on with his team--on this topic I can actually speak from a position of knowledge.

He also didn't have dementia--his body broke down in his 90's; his brain did not.

 

As for El Pegual, we couldn't ask for a better owner. He'll be approved unanimously in about 1/3 of a second.

 

When discussing EJ I don't consider him to completely "suck" because it's way too early for that kind of assessment. But it doesn't help that a slew of guys are playing QB at a decent level who have 1-2 years under their belts like Wilson, Kaepernick, Tannehill, Dalton and Foles. These guys were available in 2011-12 when Buddy Nix ridiculously decided they couldn't challenge Fitz. There's nothing I hate worse than seeing guys play well at a position like QB Buffalo could have selected.

 

Buffalo had time with guys like Spiller (who plays a position of increasingly less importance) Aaron Williams (who needed a position change to excel) and Hughes (a reclamation project that has worked out for 1 season so far) that they don't have with Manuel as a QB and the guy who the latest rebuild centers around. Fair or unfair, this 2nd year QB does not have 3 years to show he can play in the NFL. The nature of the business means that he's gotta sink or swim more quickly than we'd like. And, based on early returns, he's not the guy who looks like he can win 10 games in the NFL, i.e. a playoff record.

 

One point of house-cleaning: Tannehill (picked 8th) was gone when Buffalo selected Stephon Gilmore with the 10th pick in 2012.

[You herd it hear last]

I believe EJ will be good when, and only when....

 

 

 

 

 

 

All Bills fans learn to spell his last name correctly

[John from Riverside]

A massive conflation of the argument about players "sucking." The ratio of first rounders not being even Pro Bowl selections is greater than 5%, so this is easily a huge reach.

 

CJ Spiller has 2 good seasons under his belt out of 4. He hasn't lived up to being a top half of the first round pick. Aaron Williams, after a position change, has 1 solid season in 3 NFL seasons. Jerry Hughes has 1 solid season out of 4 in the NFL.

 

And it's comparing those guys, who play positions not as crucial to a team's success or failure, with a first round QB. I think the signs are there with Manuel that he's struggling. You need time to evaluate, but the early returns aren't good right now.

 

I know this is asking a lot from a fanbase that has had to endure the last 15 years.......but you are comparing EJ (with 1 nfl season without 16 games) to player that have played in the NFL FOUR years

 

Folks....we gotta give EJ this season before making a evaluation

[You herd it hear last]

I know this is asking a lot from a fanbase that has had to endure the last 15 years.......but you are comparing EJ (with 1 nfl season without 16 games) to player that have played in the NFL FOUR years

 

Folks....we gotta give EJ this season before making a evaluation

 

yep.

 

All reasonable Bills' fans know we have to give him time. There simply is no other way right now. Cliche it up all you want. "painted in a corner, eggs in a basket, for better/worse... etc", it just is that way. As long as he's healthy. That is a pretty big caveat though.

 

With the "action" at camp and PS games, the situation seems more fluid to the fan than it probably does to the coaches. Therefor necessitating (in the fans' mind) and expecting more drastic and visible on-field change. The coaches are busy just looking at the ingredients, while the fans want the pie right now.

[BackInDaDay]

some of last season's all-22 perspectives exposed some shoddy schematics in the passing game - which Hilliard took the hit for - so hopefully these issues aren't lingering

 

for the record, i'm a big EJ supporter.. i believe he has all of the physical tools to succeed, and from all accounts - his attitude and work ethic are fantastic. my concern is that his football instincts may have been dulled by all the time he's had to get coached up, without a chance to compete. that's why i suggested that Hackett should get him 'physically involved' asap - roll him out, send in an option, let him move around a bit.

 

we all knew he was a project, but did anyone believe he would be groomed as strictly a pocket passer?

let him play his game, and then see what he's retained from all the coaching. there's a chance they might be pleasantly surprised,

 

i was very pleased to see this report regarding what our OC and Receivers coach are installing.

 

Synching up the feet paying off

This offseason offensive coordinator Nathaniel Hackett along with receivers coach Rob Moore committed to a step count based route tree for their receivers. The idea behind it was to put the route running paces of the receivers in lock step with the drop steps of the quarterback to create a more consistent efficiency to the passing game.

“We give them guidelines,” said Hackett. “We want to give them foundation of something they can believe in - understanding the depth you have to get to, how many steps it will take to get there and so forth. But at the same time everything has to adjust.”

So far the receivers like it believing more precise execution in the passing game will lead to more opportunities to gain yards after the catch.

“I think it’s working out,” said Robert Woods. “We’re seeing the change from last year. When we’re breaking out of our routes and the ball is already in the air there’s less time waiting on the ball and it gives us more time to make the defender miss.”

 

I think it explains a few things we saw Sunday.

 

1. the number of snaps taken from under center

2. the 'locking in' to a particular route

3. the consequences of the OL's poor techniques

 

Manuel's being coached up to release the ball as soon as he sets his plant foot. So, depending on his dropback, he was attempting to hit the related route.

 

It's why his mechanics seemed fine, but his instincts.. well, looked lousy. there was nothing instinctive about where he was going with the ball, and until he gets more experience in going through each set of progressions his dropbacks are timed too, he'll look like a blind robot at times.

 

There's a lot of work to do.. to get to the point where he and his receivers make the same reads on which corresponding patterns to run, and where Manuel's comfortable delivering the ball to the end of that route - without hesitation - but it's good to see there's a plan in place.. and that what i thought might be EJ having too much on his plate, was just he and the offence working the plan.

 

Hmm.. is it too late for a 'never mind'?

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

When discussing EJ I don't consider him to completely "suck" because it's way too early for that kind of assessment. But it doesn't help that a slew of guys are playing QB at a decent level who have 1-2 years under their belts like Wilson, Kaepernick, Tannehill, Dalton and Foles. These guys were available in 2011-12 when Buddy Nix ridiculously decided they couldn't challenge Fitz. There's nothing I hate worse than seeing guys play well at a position like QB Buffalo could have selected.

 

Buffalo had time with guys like Spiller (who plays a position of increasingly less importance) Aaron Williams (who needed a position change to excel) and Hughes (a reclamation project that has worked out for 1 season so far) that they don't have with Manuel as a QB and the guy who the latest rebuild centers around. Fair or unfair, this 2nd year QB does not have 3 years to show he can play in the NFL. The nature of the business means that he's gotta sink or swim more quickly than we'd like. And, based on early returns, he's not the guy who looks like he can win 10 games in the NFL, i.e. a playoff record.

 

Foles threw 6 tds & 5 ints as a rookie. Kaepernick didn't play as a rookie except in gimmick packages. Tannehill had a worse rookie year than EJ and got swept by Thad Lewis.

 

You can point to Dalton (who a lot fans think is below average, I don't) and Wilson (who benefits from being on a great team where he doesn't have to win games by himself).

 

Obviously, the Graham over Wilson pick was a disaster. But how do we know the same fans all over EJ, won't be running him out of town? He plays with a top 5 defense and was brought along really slow as a rookie.

 

I'm not going to say the Bills plan for Qbs was perfect. But people need to be realistic. Kolb is made of glass but was a decent option for a backup. I don't know what is going on with Lewis but he looked like he could be a solid NFL backup. Fact is, there aren't that many Qbs. There just aren't. Personally, I would have drafted Aaron Murray.

 

Face it. It's sink or swim with EJ. Odds are no matter who the backup is, they probably aren't saving the season. All some if us want is a little patience and see if the guy can develop.

[thebandit27]

i was very pleased to see this report regarding what our OC and Receivers coach are installing.

 

Synching up the feet paying off

 

This offseason offensive coordinator Nathaniel Hackett along with receivers coach Rob Moore committed to a step count based route tree for their receivers. The idea behind it was to put the route running paces of the receivers in lock step with the drop steps of the quarterback to create a more consistent efficiency to the passing game.

“We give them guidelines,” said Hackett. “We want to give them foundation of something they can believe in - understanding the depth you have to get to, how many steps it will take to get there and so forth. But at the same time everything has to adjust.”

So far the receivers like it believing more precise execution in the passing game will lead to more opportunities to gain yards after the catch.

“I think it’s working out,” said Robert Woods. “We’re seeing the change from last year. When we’re breaking out of our routes and the ball is already in the air there’s less time waiting on the ball and it gives us more time to make the defender miss.”

 

I think it explains a few things we saw Sunday.

 

1. the number of snaps taken from under center

2. the 'locking in' to a particular route

3. the consequences of the OL's poor techniques

 

Manuel's being coached up to release the ball as soon as he sets his plant foot. So, depending on his dropback, he was attempting to hit the related route.

 

It's why his mechanics seemed fine, but his instincts.. well, looked lousy. there was nothing instinctive about where he was going with the ball, and until he gets more experience in going through each set of progressions his dropbacks are timed too, he'll look like a blind robot at times.

 

There's a lot of work to do.. to get to the point where he and his receivers make the same reads on which corresponding patterns to run, and where Manuel's comfortable delivering the ball to the end of that route - without hesitation - but it's good to see there's a plan in place.. and that what i thought might be EJ having too much on his plate, was just he and the offence working the plan.

 

Hmm.. is it too late for a 'never mind'?

 

You know something? You're a very good poster.

 

Seriously.

 

There aren't many folks that actually invest time in looking into the scheme/approach/play design to actually determine if what they believe they're seeing is reality. I know you have a background in the game, but still, it's nice to see.

 

So, question for you given this information:

 

Do you--in light of the route combination/timing concepts being practiced--believe that EJ was fundamentally doing the right things out there on Sunday?

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

You know something? You're a very good poster.

 

Seriously.

 

There aren't many folks that actually invest time in looking into the scheme/approach/play design to actually determine if what they believe they're seeing is reality. I know you have a background in the game, but still, it's nice to see.

 

So, question for you given this information:

 

Do you--in light of the route combination/timing concepts being practiced--believe that EJ was fundamentally doing the right things out there on Sunday?

 

Agreed

[Dan]

Which begs the question, who's hiring all the failed GM's at OBD? And are those people held responsible? Because making decisions out of desperation is not a "vision" for success, yet that's what the Bills have done with their 1st round picks in 2013 and 2014.

 

If Manuel doesn't succeed in 2014 I think a new owner needs to clean house. That is, if the bidding on the team gets finished anytime soon. Only time will tell.

 

And this is exactly why everyone needs to hope like all hell that EJ and Marrone are good and we have a winning season. Because if not... the new owner will almost certainly blow up the entire FO, coaching staff, then players are gone. Do that much overhaul in the NFL and you're talking years.. 5? before we can even hope for a winning record.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Dan

[John from Riverside]

i was very pleased to see this report regarding what our OC and Receivers coach are installing.

 

Synching up the feet paying off

 

This offseason offensive coordinator Nathaniel Hackett along with receivers coach Rob Moore committed to a step count based route tree for their receivers. The idea behind it was to put the route running paces of the receivers in lock step with the drop steps of the quarterback to create a more consistent efficiency to the passing game.

“We give them guidelines,” said Hackett. “We want to give them foundation of something they can believe in - understanding the depth you have to get to, how many steps it will take to get there and so forth. But at the same time everything has to adjust.”

So far the receivers like it believing more precise execution in the passing game will lead to more opportunities to gain yards after the catch.

“I think it’s working out,” said Robert Woods. “We’re seeing the change from last year. When we’re breaking out of our routes and the ball is already in the air there’s less time waiting on the ball and it gives us more time to make the defender miss.”

 

I think it explains a few things we saw Sunday.

 

1. the number of snaps taken from under center

2. the 'locking in' to a particular route

3. the consequences of the OL's poor techniques

 

Manuel's being coached up to release the ball as soon as he sets his plant foot. So, depending on his dropback, he was attempting to hit the related route.

 

It's why his mechanics seemed fine, but his instincts.. well, looked lousy. there was nothing instinctive about where he was going with the ball, and until he gets more experience in going through each set of progressions his dropbacks are timed too, he'll look like a blind robot at times.

 

There's a lot of work to do.. to get to the point where he and his receivers make the same reads on which corresponding patterns to run, and where Manuel's comfortable delivering the ball to the end of that route - without hesitation - but it's good to see there's a plan in place.. and that what i thought might be EJ having too much on his plate, was just he and the offence working the plan.

 

Hmm.. is it too late for a 'never mind'?

 

This is a really good post......kudos