NoSaint Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 This isn't cheerleading that Graham's going to be a great one but lets atleast throw out there that in 2 pro seasons he has more than 5 times the catches and 4 yards per catch higher average - which is substantial. Hogans 10 receptions come at an 8.3 yard average and a career long of 16 yards.
mrags Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 One would think tj never made a play and hogans never dropped a ball ever reading the board lately. yup
vincec Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) The battle between Graham and Hogan is just beginning. It's going to last all of camp and probably be one of the last ones to be decided, IMO. Easley will probably make the team but it wouldn't hurt his cause to show a modicum of receiving skills in case both Graham and Hogan both pick up their game. It could go either way but my gut feeling, just based on this coaching staffs apparently infatuation with speed at WR, is that Graham will be the man with Hogan cut. Or, if Hogan really shows some prowess on special teams then they may keep 7 WRs and keep all three. Edited August 1, 2014 by vincec
mrags Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Who do you want in when it's 3rd and 5 ?? Watkins Woods Williams Goodwin Freddy
GG Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) i never said I was pro TJ. I was simply stating that a player that has actually made this team in the past and started at the position has a much better chance of making the team than a camp body that's used for STs. No offense, but if Graham wasn't a 3rd round draft pick, do you think he makes the team last year? Has he outperformed his competition to make the team this year, so far? We should ignore the pass that TJ got last two years, and think of he should make the roster this year, based solely on ability. PS are people forgetting when Graham was getting virtually zero coverage from CBs last year and Bills QBs still not looking on his direction? It's not just ability, but the QBs trust that the wr will make the play. That's why a no talent like Hogan is infinitely better than an athlete like Graham. The QB will not look to graham to make the play, so he's a waste of a roster spot. Edited August 1, 2014 by GG
LB3 Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 One would think tj never made a play and hogans never dropped a ball ever reading the board lately. True. It's just tough hearing how good Hogan is playing in camp compared to Graham. It just makes me concentrate on the bad plays Graham made that cost us last year. He really did get open a ton though.
Kirby Jackson Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) I will get off my soapbox because clearly I am not a Hogan fan. If we needed someone to play a lot he may actually be a better fit. He can maybe be more consistent. If we were looking for a 3rd WR he may make sense but as the 6th guy he doesn't IMO. If we are only talking about a little playing time I want the guy that can make the most of that. I just keep trying to picture a play that Hogan will make that will impact the outcome of a game and I can't see it. He won't be in on important 3rd down situations, he has never made a big play (even in practice) and he is an average special teamer. Keep the guy that MAY make a few plays that effect the result of a game or 2. I kind of view it like the US basketball team. If you had a choice of Kyle Korver or John Wall on your team everyone would pick Wall. If I showed you the other 11 guys Korver can do more to help the team. He can play a role and make impactful plays. If each guy was needed 35 minutes a night it would be a different story. Edited August 1, 2014 by Kirby Jackson
GG Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 As the fifth WR, he provides value by being on the team. You have to plan for injuries and should feel much more comfortable with a more dependable Hogan in the line up than a non football track star.
boyst Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) don't forget no toughness (see KC game fumble) Assuming you're being cereal... Graham hasn't missed any time to my best memory. He has chased down quite a few players and has shown more toughness then any WR we've had in 3 years. Which markers? Is anyone confident that he's progressed or is he just a practice field hero so reports in August are more glowing than December every year? replying here because I don't feel like going back to the other page where you asked. Hogan ceiling vs. Graham ceiling... stats for 2014 if both are the 4th WR - mixing it up with doses of Goodwin (when healthy)... Hogan: 40 catches, 280 yards, no TD's. Graham: 33 catches, 310 yards, 2 TD's. Graham will get the TD's because he will be able to beat coverage and make a catch at some point. Hogan, not so much. His athleticism will get him YAC's but I figure he will only be a target when safeties bite deep on over the top coverage to assist Goodwin/Watkins/MWilliams on deep routes. Thus, I see Hogan able to catch more while running more base and dump routes. Graham will be running the same posts, hooks and maybe a few cut backs like we saw late last year - and he would be getting more snaps then Hogan due to his versatility. Graham is also a smarter football player, above what most players at his level are; Hogan is just a phenomenal athlete able to pick up on things quickly while Graham is a the proverbial speedster athlete able to beat others by willpower and speed. If Hogan can finesse his football playing he will find more success. If Graham can draw in his attention span and cue in on the ball, he'll be much improved. If it was a lock tomorrow, I do not know that I would want to hang my hat on either yet for the 4th. Goodwin is not my primary 4th in my offense, he is my special go to guy for the package plays. He hasn't shown reliability/durability yet. Therefore, the 5th WR to make the team - assuming it is between these two and number six WR is going to not be either - well, I think I would keep both and cut Easley. I hate saying it but the position is WR and that's where we need help. If giving a legit answer I watch Hogan closely. I give him every opportunity and I then look at Graham and look at what he has done on the field, which is a lot. He has given his all and I wonder how much more can he capably give; his ceiling is higher then Hogans. I keep Graham and the second anyone is injured anywhere, I get Hogan. Of course if this was my team, I'd keep 2 TE's and 7 WR's. Our WR corps is much more talented then our TE's. If we need a big OL to run behind we have some nice youngsters on the team to add as an extra pass eligible player - Henderson, primarily. For the record, Chandler and Smith would be my two TE's, and I would never run two TE packages where both are in. The drop off is too much between 2nd and 3rd TE on this team - and that's already not a very deep pool. But, relatively speaking, we'll get more from a WR. Edited August 1, 2014 by jboyst62
Kelly the Dog Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 No offense, but if Graham wasn't a 3rd round draft pick, do you think he makes the team last year? Has he outperformed his competition to make the team this year, so far? We should ignore the pass that TJ got last two years, and think of he should make the roster this year, based solely on ability. Even though he tends to suck, and drop balls, which is why he should probably be cut, I have never seen a player as open so often as TJ Graham since probably Eric Moulds in his prime. It's a serious ability he has that shouldnt be wantonly overlooked. He just dropped too many passes, and he cannot track the ball in the air very well.
NoSaint Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) Who do you want in when it's 3rd and 5 ?? 7-11 who EJ has confidence in, or Mr. Dropsie? As he only has like 4 catches of 6 yards or more I'm not sure where the confidence on hogan comes from on this crucial 3rd and 5 Edited August 1, 2014 by NoSaint
boyst Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Who do you want in when it's 3rd and 5 ?? 7-11 who EJ has confidence in, or Mr. Dropsie? A.Dixon, Fred Jackson, Sammy Watkins, Scott Chandler and Robert Woods/Mike Williams. Wait, I had to have '7-11' or Mr Dropsie? My bad, let me try again... Fred Jackson, CJ Spiller, Sammy Watkins, Scott Chandler, Lee Smith, Robert Woods/Mike Williams. crap, trying again. Sammy Watkins, Anthony Dixon, that RB from phili, Fred Jackson, a toothbrush, and Robert Woods/Mike Williams. ok...crap. my bad... here goes Bryce Brown, CJ Spiller both in the backfield and motion out to WR. EJ drops back from under center to shotgun. Looks to his left where now Scott Chandler dropped off the line, and at the snap motions behind the OL showing coverage, Sammy Watkins now the lone WR on the left, meaning 4 WR's one side and Watkins one on one, and the option to throw a screen to him or throw to any of the other 2 guys, who would be Mike Williams, Robert Woods. OK I suck at this game, but I guess I don't understand the rules. Why must we put Graham or Hogan on the field at all? Because, we have more then one type of weapon on this team and we still have Goodwin, but since you like nicknames, lets just call him the can opener, because he can take the top off of anything. As he only has like 4 catches of 6 yards or more I'm not sure where the confidence on hogan comes from on this crucial 3rd and 5 no, no, no he's on to something. Next it's going to be about the Germans when they attacked Pearl Harbor! See, TJ Graham has to be at fault here, HAS TO.
mrags Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 I will get off my soapbox because clearly I am not a Hogan fan. If we needed someone to play a lot he may actually be a better fit. He can maybe be more consistent. If we were looking for a 3rd WR he may make sense but as the 6th guy he doesn't IMO. If we are only talking about a little playing time I want the guy that can make the most of that. I just keep trying to picture a play that Hogan will make that will impact the outcome of a game and I can't see it. He won't be in on important 3rd down situations, he has never made a big play (even in practice) and he is an average special teamer. Keep the guy that MAY make a few plays that effect the result of a game or 2. I kind of view it like the US basketball team. If you had a choice of Kyle Korver or John Wall on your team everyone would pick Wall. If I showed you the other 11 guys Korver can do more to help the team. He can play a role and make impactful plays. If each guy was needed 35 minutes a night it would be a different story. ya know what's funny. Is the same people that say Graham's "big play ability" isn't enough to make a difference and they'd rather have a player who's consistent in there, are the same people that say CJ should be in the team. Haha. I'm not a huge fan of either Graham or Hogan but I don't get all the love for a scrub like Hogan. He's literally invisible to me when it counts. Every year we talk about players that are studs in camp but never make it come time to make the team and contribute. Hell, nobody is talking about Roosevelt and he's actually made the team and contributed before. So I'll say that he's my 5th or 6th.
thebug Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 You know what's sad? The fact that Hogan is even mentioned in the same breath as TJ. If TJ would just catch the ball, we wouldn't give 2 ***** about Hogan.
GG Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Even though he tends to suck, and drop balls, which is why he should probably be cut, I have never seen a player as open so often as TJ Graham since probably Eric Moulds in his prime. It's a serious ability he has that shouldnt be wantonly overlooked. He just dropped too many passes, and he cannot track the ball in the air very well. And that's his biggest liability. If the QB doesn't have faith in him, and will not throw him the ball, then he's a waste of a roster spot.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 You know what's sad? The fact that Hogan is even mentioned in the same breath as TJ. If TJ would just catch the ball, we wouldn't give 2 ***** about Hogan. Yup. Except he doesn't, and perhaps he can't.
You herd it hear last Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Don't they have $.69 tacos? Might be more like $2.25. That is some serious tax. Where do you live, Doc?
Kelly the Dog Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 And that's his biggest liability. If the QB doesn't have faith in him, and will not throw him the ball, then he's a waste of a roster spot. No question. I think he sucks. And I doubt that he can "learn" to catch the ball with the consistency needed to be an effective NFL player. He was infuriating last year. My point was only that he also possesses an extremely rare skill. Two of them in fact. And he gets so wide open so often that he doesn't even have to make difficult catches in order to be good like 95% of the Wrs do. We may, repeat MAY, have to give him one more year. His real problem is not even his hands, it's tracking the ball in the air. He's just terrible at it. If he were anywhere near a good at Goodwin at it, he would still be a valuable player even with ****ty hands because he would be a threat teams had to worry about. This is foolishly simplistic, but if he could simply go get the ball, half the time he would be a threat. Because he can't, he is a 25% threat.
DJasper Probincrux III Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 In hogans best case scenario, what do you guys see as his best season and career stats? Just curious to get real perspective on where people actually gauge his potential when they say he could be good. Is it unreasonable to suggest he could be a Josh Reed analog? So 55 for 600 with 2 TDs a bunch of 1st downs and solid blocking. That was Reed's top output. If I were really stretching it I'd say Wayne Chrebet whose numbers were really up and down (75 for 1083 one year, 48 for 631 the next) only 3 years over 900 yards but caught 41TDs and was an absolute PIA the whole time. Best case scenario for Graham I see is Don Beebe. His best stat year was one with the Packers 39 for 699 with 4 TDs. His best year as a Bill was 40 for 527 with 4 TDs. He was consistently between 30 and 40 catches for about 500 yards and a handful of touchdowns and he'd drop the most aggravating passes some times. You'd hold your breath when the ball was in the air. I get the why people would keep Graham, he's fast as hell but I think the numbers at the end of the day would be about the same, it's just how you get there. Part of the issue is that they're competing for the same spot but really wouldn't do the same sorts of things on the field so you can always fall back on the "yeah but" in either case. It's a matter of preference honestly.
RussellDopeland Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 For some, Hogan's a feel-good story because they like the underdog. But the reality is that most of the 'hype" surrounding him is related to the fact that he's a slow-footed white dude who tries real hard. I'm not a fan of Graham at all. But at the end of the day I'd rather have him on the roster than Hogan because he has more upside. Yes Hogan looks great running around in shorts at camp- that might win him the "Tim Anderson Lunch Pail/Chris Kelsay High Motor Award" at the end of camp, but so what.
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