FireChan Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 You provided stats. There's a difference between stats and understanding the game based upon what defenses are doing BECAUSE Spiller presents unique problems. Same argument could be made for Kyle Williams, too. I get the impression you follow the ball from play to play without really looking at or appreciating what's happening elsewhere. GO BILLS!!! Maybe you could be more specific. You can say the defensive keys are different. You can say he opens up things for other players. Let's see an example or two. I'm not gonna say you're entirely wrong. But if after one good year, a defense can key on Spiller and turn him into a 900 yard 2 TD back, I'd like to see increased production elsewhere. Attribute the defense keying on Spiller as a reason for a deep Goodwin/Graham TD. Or an open field for a QB scramble. Let's see the plays.
mrags Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 You provided stats. There's a difference between stats and understanding the game based upon what defenses are doing BECAUSE Spiller presents unique problems. Same argument could be made for Kyle Williams, too. I get the impression you follow the ball from play to play without really looking at or appreciating what's happening elsewhere. GO BILLS!!! i have a feeling you can't bring up anything other than bringing up Kyle Williams. I was right about Greer, Parrish, Schobel, Poz, McGee, Evans. The list could go on. Just because you don't agree yiu call me an idiot. And Hirt of actually saying it that way, that's what your doing. That's fine. I'll believe in my opinions. You believe in yours. And fwiw, if you want to talk about actual gameplay on the field vs stats... CJ doesn't even belong in your argument. From running into the backs of his own blockers, taking the wrong holes, bouncing to the outside or taking it inside when he Should for the opposite, running out of bounds when trying to kill the clock, staying in bounds when trying to stop it, and let's not forget his inability to make the smart run for a 3rd first down and he tries to make a big play to stop him short and force is to punt. Or you could look at his TDs in this league. 12 ok the ground pretty much says it all about his ability to find the goal when it matters.
Bob Malooga Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 San Francisco just lost LaMicheal James and another RB. They are a SuperBowl contender and surefire playoff team meaning their first round pick will be very low. Trade Spiller and a conditional 5th or 6th for their first round pick. I decided to vote "no trade," because I do not think trading Spiller helps us this year. But, if I had to trade him because we knew we were losing him at season's end...I ship him to San Fran as well, but for Marcus Lattimore and a 2nd or 3rd round pick. I just cannot see another team trading a 1st round pick for a RB after Trent Richardson failed so badly...so we get Lattimore for the future, to sit and learn behind Fred for a year, until he's fully healthy. Marcus Lattimore would have been a top-20 pick if he did not get hurt in college...I also met him once while living in South Carolina, and I'll say he'd immediately be a fan-favorite in Buffalo. (I'd then use one of our 2nd round picks to draft Todd Gurley...imagine Brown, Lattimore and Gurley as our backfield moving forward?) But, again, I do advocate trading Spiller...because if the Bills are indeed "all-in," and by accounts they are...keeping Spiller helps more than trading him would.
The Big Cat Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 You provided stats. There's a difference between stats and understanding the game based upon what defenses are doing BECAUSE Spiller presents unique problems. Same argument could be made for Kyle Williams, too. I get the impression you follow the ball from play to play without really looking at or appreciating what's happening elsewhere. GO BILLS!!! Maybe you could be more specific. You can say the defensive keys are different. You can say he opens up things for other players. Let's see an example or two. I'm not gonna say you're entirely wrong. But if after one good year, a defense can key on Spiller and turn him into a 900 yard 2 TD back, I'd like to see increased production elsewhere. Attribute the defense keying on Spiller as a reason for a deep Goodwin/Graham TD. Or an open field for a QB scramble. Let's see the plays. I'd like some more specificity too. I've cited several all-22 reviews which showed Spiller just blatantly missing holes, mis-reading blocks and doing the WRONG thing to create plays (bouncing it to the outside rather than cutting up the middle). Often times he does this because that's where defenses are funneling him. So, if he plays right into the D's strategy...isn't that on him.
thewildrabbit Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 I'm not mad at all. It is just difficult conversing with some fans who seem to have blinders on considering certain players or situations. CJ isn't the only player on offense, and neither was SJ or EJ. Its a team game!! Allow me reiterate that the Bills drafted 3 linemen this year, and gave 5.5 million guaranteed to a OG to bolster that line for A REASON! The Bills FO had real reasons for making those moves. With a better line the team will be able to become a better offense, a better passing team, a better running team, and actually allow the QB a chance to develop. A better line will help the entire offense...oh no, am I crusading about the line again...dammit!
The Big Cat Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 Statistically speaking, he has done little in 3 of his 4 years in the league, and that fuels his hatred... This argument takes a step back when those critical of CJ are painted with the 'hatred' brush. Just sayin
thebandit27 Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 I'd like some more specificity too. I've cited several all-22 reviews which showed Spiller just blatantly missing holes, mis-reading blocks and doing the WRONG thing to create plays (bouncing it to the outside rather than cutting up the middle). Often times he does this because that's where defenses are funneling him. So, if he plays right into the D's strategy...isn't that on him. While I don't have last season's game rewind handy, I can piggy-back to show you a bit of what K-9 may be talking about... http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2013/11/13/5099222/bills-vs-jets-2013-cj-spiller-read-option-running-game-all-22#4031099 Plays 4, 6, and 9 are good examples of read-option type opportunities that open up with defenses attacking Spiller. Now, the fact that we didn't take advantage of them is another story, but the opportunities are there.
mrags Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 I'm not mad at all. It is just difficult conversing with some fans who seem to have blinders on considering certain players or situations. CJ isn't the only player on offense, and neither was SJ or EJ. Its a team game!! Allow me reiterate that the Bills drafted 3 linemen this year, and gave 5.5 million guaranteed to a OG to bolster that line for A REASON! The Bills FO had real reasons for making those moves. With a better line the team will be able to become a better offense, a better passing team, a better running team, and actually allow the QB a chance to develop. A better line will help the entire offense...oh no, am I crusading about the line again...dammit! your arguing with me about CJs play and say I have blinders on??? Really? All you have to go on is hope. Hope that he actually does something more than he's proven 3 out of 4 years in this league.
CountryCletus Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) I'm not mad at all. It is just difficult conversing with some fans who seem to have blinders on considering certain players or situations. CJ isn't the only player on offense, and neither was SJ or EJ. Its a team game!! Allow me reiterate that the Bills drafted 3 linemen this year, and gave 5.5 million guaranteed to a OG to bolster that line for A REASON! The Bills FO had real reasons for making those moves. With a better line the team will be able to become a better offense, a better passing team, a better running team, and actually allow the QB a chance to develop. A better line will help the entire offense...oh no, am I crusading about the line again...dammit! Are you referencing the OG Chris Williams??? The one that has a contract that doesn't exceed $3.725m a year- not $5.5M This argument takes a step back when those critical of CJ are painted with the 'hatred' brush. Just sayin I can use a synonym, but it still expresses the same thing... Why dispute wording? Lol... I'm confident that he hates CJ, I'm also confident that he supports him while he's here and hopes that he is wrong... Edited July 28, 2014 by CountryCletus
thebandit27 Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 Are you referencing the OG Chris Williams??? The one that has a contract that doesn't exceed $3.725m a year- not $5.5M I can use a synonym, but it still expresses the same thing... Why dispute wording? Lol... I'm confident that he hates CJ, I'm also confident that he supports him while he's here and hopes that he is wrong... He's talking guaranteed money for Williams--the $5.5M was his guarantee when he signed--although I believe it's guaranteed for injury only so I'm not certain how robust his contract really is...seems rather small.
CountryCletus Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 It's honestly not that big... http://mobile.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/chris-williams/
The Big Cat Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 While I don't have last season's game rewind handy, I can piggy-back to show you a bit of what K-9 may be talking about... http://www.buffaloru...-all-22#4031099 Plays 4, 6, and 9 are good examples of read-option type opportunities that open up with defenses attacking Spiller. Now, the fact that we didn't take advantage of them is another story, but the opportunities are there. Play four: EJ fails to execute. Play six: Offensive line fails to execute/Jets make the correct read Play nine: Urbrik whiffs. I don't ever recall making the argument that CJ failed when and only when he failed to execute. There were obviously major issues up front last year.
thebandit27 Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 Play four: EJ fails to execute. Play six: Offensive line fails to execute/Jets make the correct read Play nine: Urbrik whiffs. I don't ever recall making the argument that CJ failed when and only when he failed to execute. There were obviously major issues up front last year. I didn't say that you did...I thought you and mrags were asking for what type of opportunities Spiller's mere presence creates in the offense, and I found the above to be a good source for examples. Was that not what you asked about?
FireChan Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) I'm not mad at all. It is just difficult conversing with some fans who seem to have blinders on considering certain players or situations. CJ isn't the only player on offense, and neither was SJ or EJ. Its a team game!! Allow me reiterate that the Bills drafted 3 linemen this year, and gave 5.5 million guaranteed to a OG to bolster that line for A REASON! The Bills FO had real reasons for making those moves. With a better line the team will be able to become a better offense, a better passing team, a better running team, and actually allow the QB a chance to develop. A better line will help the entire offense...oh no, am I crusading about the line again...dammit! I don't understand. What is the point of bringing up what the FO did? Because you were correct in your crusade, that makes it okay? If Spiller is traded or let go, does that mean we were right? You'll redact your crusade comments? I guess there won't be EJ crusaders if he fails by year 3. Edited July 28, 2014 by FireChan
Kent H Jr Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 I have to admit I have not seen every urgument or sale pitch, from everyone in favor of ttrading CJS, however a quick surf thru, has the same feeling of the crowd that was in favor of tradinLynch... just sayin'....
thewildrabbit Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 your arguing with me about CJs play and say I have blinders on??? Really? All you have to go on is hope. Hope that he actually does something more than he's proven 3 out of 4 years in this league. I'm not arguing at all. Just sayin that there is more to what a player accomplishes or doesn't accomplish then just himself. Do you get that? I was never a fan of drafting Spiller in the first place, and still think it was a stupid move at that period in time. I think the entire world (besides Nate Hackett) understands that Spiller is not an every down, run up the middle, smash mouth type running back. Mostly because we all we able to see glimpses of what that kid can do if given the proper opportunities in space like he was in 2012, and he was greatly underutilized by Gailey that season. I look at the failings of last season and place the majority of the blame on a rookie coaching staff. I can't emphasis enough how lame it was to run up the middle 70+% of the time in the NFL and then expecting that to work in terms of making first downs, and getting wins. The Bills were the #2 team in the NFL in rushing, and #1 in attempts, and yet were unbelievably bad in time of possession. Unbelievably bad in 3 and out percentage. 29th in 3rd down efficiency. 31st in first down statistics because opposing teams knew the run was coming up the middle. Basically Nate Hackett had a hurry up, and punt offense last season that only won 6 games. I look back at last season and see Spiller misused, and him being frustrated with his up front blocking. READ THIS- http://blogs.buffalonews.com/press-coverage/2013/11/doug-marrone-urges-cj-spiller-to-hold-o-line-accountable.html Teams were able to shut down Spiller mostly because when you have a singularly simple run offense like Buffalo had last season. It was so predictable and easy to stop. In that first Jets game Spiller was able to gain 9 yards on 10 attempts, and was getting hit every play behind the line of scrimmage. Exactly how is that his fault? After getting tackled so many times in the backfield I can understand his desire to kick it outside, and hit some open space. I look back at last season and see a coaching - team failure more so then any one player failing.
The Big Cat Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 I didn't say that you did...I thought you and mrags were asking for what type of opportunities Spiller's mere presence creates in the offense, and I found the above to be a good source for examples. Was that not what you asked about? Well, tangentially, I suppose. But I'll go back to the Lee Evans-turned-Stevie-turned-CJ (I guess) decoy-assertion that I roundly reject and always have.
Security Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 Like I said earlier, trade Spiller if the Bills are 2-5, and the team is actually healthy and losing. I would trade any player on this team if the Bills are 2-5 and healthy and losing, Whaley would be gone, and we would need the draft picks.
thebandit27 Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 Well, tangentially, I suppose. But I'll go back to the Lee Evans-turned-Stevie-turned-CJ (I guess) decoy-assertion that I roundly reject and always have. Okay, I must've mis-read then...I took for granted that that's what you asked for because you had quoted FireChan, who said this: Maybe you could be more specific. You can say the defensive keys are different. You can say he opens up things for other players. Let's see an example or two. Hence I provided the link.
The Big Cat Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 Okay, I must've mis-read then...I took for granted that that's what you asked for because you had quoted FireChan, who said this: Hence I provided the link. Yeah, except I subscribe to the belief that every skill-position player 'opens up plays' for his teammates. When we cut Lee Evans, you would have thought this contribution was entirely indispensable and a reason to keep a player. I didn't buy that argument then, and I won't buy it for CJ, either.
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