Why I hate the idea of the Wide 9 for the Bills D

[YoloinOhio]

FYI - this guy is the all-22 guru. I usually add any Detroit-related D stuff to the latest Schwartz post...

 

Rich Fann II ‏@RDotDeuce 4m

Perhaps Bills too RT @JamesALight Detroit #Lions Gap Exchange Stunt: http://wp.me/p2V0ns-1Bo .... http://twitter.com/JamesALight/status/492670090136281088/photo/1pic.twitter.com/ZsiwYMl844

[CardinalScotts]

Well, rest easy, since we've got Jairus Byrd back there.

 

its how important safety play is against the run...the Byrd man was not/ is not a hitter...it was drop to the ankles and hold on.

[mattsox]

Sounds basically identical to what Pettine was doing.

 

 

 

We also added arguably the best run defending LB in the NFL, as well as a very good depth corner. I'm also not sure why Schwartz is a "crappy" coach, nor do I understand why you'd fail to mention that we added a former DC as a LBs coach, and brought in a very likely up-and-coming DC in Pepper Johnson to coach DL.

 

How do all of these things add up to an "epic fail"? For that matter, why is it now en vogue to use "fail" as a noun instead of "failure"?

 

That's all good and great. The PLAYERS are the ones who make things happen on the Football field. Last time I checked, our LB core isn't something I would sleep on. Losing Kiko Alonso is a MAJOR loss. He is a BIG FACTOR on that unit. Without him going sideline to sideline, I don't see how Schwartz D will be effective. Also no Jarius Byrd is a MAJOR LOSS as well. Another playmaker who created Turn overs. That is an EPIC FAIL by the Front Office not to re-sign him 2 years ago! He will be missed and so will Alonso. With those 2 key pieces gone, and Schwartz poor scheme and not having the players needed to make it work, I don't see us having a very good year at stopping anyone this season.

[YoloinOhio]

That's all good and great. The PLAYERS are the ones who make things happen on the Football field. Last time I checked, our LB core isn't something I would sleep on. Losing Kiko Alonso is a MAJOR loss. He is a BIG FACTOR on that unit. Without him going sideline to sideline, I don't see how Schwartz D will be effective. Also no Jarius Byrd is a MAJOR LOSS as well. Another playmaker who created Turn overs. That is an EPIC FAIL by the Front Office not to re-sign him 2 years ago! He will be missed and so will Alonso. With those 2 key pieces gone, and Schwartz poor scheme and not having the players needed to make it work, I don't see us having a very good year at stopping anyone this season.

Edited July 25, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[thebandit27]

That's all good and great. The PLAYERS are the ones who make things happen on the Football field. Last time I checked, our LB core isn't something I would sleep on. Losing Kiko Alonso is a MAJOR loss. He is a BIG FACTOR on that unit. Without him going sideline to sideline, I don't see how Schwartz D will be effective. Also no Jarius Byrd is a MAJOR LOSS as well. Another playmaker who created Turn overs. That is an EPIC FAIL by the Front Office not to re-sign him 2 years ago! He will be missed and so will Alonso. With those 2 key pieces gone, and Schwartz poor scheme and not having the players needed to make it work, I don't see us having a very good year at stopping anyone this season.

 

You were the one that brought up crappy coaching--that's why I refuted the point.

 

As for the LB corps (not "core"), they added two players in Spikes and Rivers. Spikes is one of the best run-stopping LBs in the game, so I'm not sure why you're ignoring that. Rivers was a very productive player with the Bengals as well, so that's another piece that may benefit the run D.

 

Byrd is a loss, no doubt. I do, however, think that Aaron Williams shifting over to FS will largely mitigate that. Williams is unquestionably a better athlete than Byrd, and he's far more physical.

 

I don't expect a good answer, but on what do you base the "poor scheme" comment, when everything we've seen thus far is that there's been very little change to the defensive scheme the team ran last year?

[hondo in seattle]

That's all good and great. The PLAYERS are the ones who make things happen on the Football field. Last time I checked, our LB core isn't something I would sleep on. Losing Kiko Alonso is a MAJOR loss. He is a BIG FACTOR on that unit. Without him going sideline to sideline, I don't see how Schwartz D will be effective. Also no Jarius Byrd is a MAJOR LOSS as well. Another playmaker who created Turn overs. That is an EPIC FAIL by the Front Office not to re-sign him 2 years ago! He will be missed and so will Alonso. With those 2 key pieces gone, and Schwartz poor scheme and not having the players needed to make it work, I don't see us having a very good year at stopping anyone this season.

 

I'm curious... what is Schwartz's scheme with the Bills? He's run different schemes over the years. I'm not sure what scheme he's using with the Bills. If you know, please share.

 

Here's what Schwartz himself said about his scheme:

 

“You can’t put it in a box. It’ll be opponent-specific and multi-dimensional. We are an attack scheme.”

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/01/27/jim-schwartz-were-going-to-be-an-attack-scheme/

 

As vague an answer as that is, it sounds good to me. What it will look like on the field, I'm not sure anyone actually yet knows.

[John from Riverside]

A couple of things....

 

- The incoming talent of Spikes (and Brown) cannot be overstated....if you want to be a consistant run stop team the MLB MUST be able to stack and shed......as much as I love Kiko Alonzo he was not able to do that consistantly as a MLB

 

- Exotic blitzing opens up run holes in the defense....this cannot be overstated....if players are staying at home and blitzing less.......teams are not going to be running the ball with any kind of consistant success....simple as that

 

- We wont be sitting in a wide 9 all game...it is just one of the looks of the defense

[hondo in seattle]

As a reminder, in Schwartz's first press conference with the Bills media, he said this about the Wide 9:

"Mostly that's thrown around by people that couldn’t line it up if they wanted to. That’s no disrespect to those people, but there’s 32 teams in the NFL, and all 32 of them line up in a Wide 9. Not all of them are called Wide 9 teams, but that’s just the way it goes. That sort of developed because it fit our personnel [in Detroit], and it fit what our opponents did. You can dictate some things on defense with it, make it hard on offense. There’s some things that you need to constantly work because, like anything, it has strengths and it has weaknesses. It’ll certainly be part of our scheme here, but it won’t define our scheme."

[You herd it hear last]

That's all good and great. The PLAYERS are the ones who make things happen on the Football field. Last time I checked, our LB core isn't something I would sleep on. Losing Kiko Alonso is a MAJOR loss. He is a BIG FACTOR on that unit. Without him going sideline to sideline, I don't see how Schwartz D will be effective. Also no Jarius Byrd is a MAJOR LOSS as well. Another playmaker who created Turn overs. That is an EPIC FAIL by the Front Office not to re-sign him 2 years ago! He will be missed and so will Alonso. With those 2 key pieces gone, and Schwartz poor scheme and not having the players needed to make it work, I don't see us having a very good year at stopping anyone this season.

 

Not only is the glass half empty, the liquid inside it is urine/fecal matter. Why did you have to pour half the glass on our wheaties?

[justnzane]

Wait... you're worried about one of our two Pro-Bowl caliber DTs ruining our defense?

 

Well, if he is not on the field due to suspensions or if he continues his emotional immaturity, yes. Dareus needs to get his chit together.

[Dorkington]

Well, if he is not on the field due to suspensions or if he continues his emotional immaturity, yes. Dareus needs to get his chit together.

 

He missed a few TC sessions, calm down.

[smapdi]

 

 

You were the one that brought up crappy coaching--that's why I refuted the point.

 

As for the LB corps (not "core"), they added two players in Spikes and Rivers. Spikes is one of the best run-stopping LBs in the game, so I'm not sure why you're ignoring that. Rivers was a very productive player with the Bengals as well, so that's another piece that may benefit the run D.

 

Byrd is a loss, no doubt. I do, however, think that Aaron Williams shifting over to FS will largely mitigate that. Williams is unquestionably a better athlete than Byrd, and he's far more physical.

 

I don't expect a good answer, but on what do you base the "poor scheme" comment, when everything we've seen thus far is that there's been very little change to the defensive scheme the team ran last year?

 

I think our run defense will be much better this season for the reasons you pointed out.

 

Losing Byrd stinks but he was never a fearsome run stopping safety. Aaron Williams takes over for him & he is a bigger, more physical safety. Then you slide in Searcy to man the other spot. He has ideal size to be a run stuffing, in the box safety. He's nearly 220 lbs and his biggest strength coming out of UNC was his physical play.

 

 

The biggest improvement will come from the LB corp. Yea, losing Alonso really hurts but luckily we have a GM who had a solid Plan B in place.

 

Brandon Spikes is the center piece literally and figuratively. He has been the top rated ILB against the run the past 2 seasons and is in the prime of his career. He brings an aggressive "bring the pain" type mentality that this team had sorely missed.

 

He is a very vocal leader as well which is another much needed asset. Pair that with the massive chip on his shoulder & we should see some fireworks from him. Some say he is a loose cannon but Whaley also brought in Pepper Johnson; his former coach. He also has never played behind a d line as good as ours. 3 pro bowlers occupying linemen leaving all types of open lanes for him to seek and destroy

 

Keith Rivers was a very solid pick up. Former top 10 pick that has a ton of untapped potential. Hopefully being healthy & the change of scenery brings out a Jerry Hughes type season.

 

Preston Brown looks like a really good pick now with the Alonso injury. He was a team leader & force @ Louisville: the nation's top defense. He is first and foremost a run stuffer which is exactly what this defense needs. Hopefully Spikes can take him under his wing & get him to play his style. I want a nasty, mean LB corp.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Wide-9 is this season's buzz word...last year it was a tie between "hybrid" and "up-tempo"

 

i guess i have to ask.... is your point that the hybrid scheme on defense and uptempo offense didnt go a long way in shaping those units identities?

[Best Player Available]

 

 

Wide-9 is this season's buzz word...last year it was a tie between "hybrid" and "up-tempo"

Great point! When is "win19" going to become a Bills buzz word?

[thebandit27]

i guess i have to ask.... is your point that the hybrid scheme on defense and uptempo offense didnt go a long way in shaping those units identities?

 

Not really, no. I just meant that too much gets made out of catch-phrases. "Wide-9" doesn't mean anymore to this defense today than it did a year ago...it's just an alignment commonly used in obvious passing situations.

[thewildrabbit]

No real need for me to fret over what scheme Schwartz will run this season, as if he fails in any respect he will probably be gone. Even without Kiko, and Byrd there is still just so much talent on that defense that a top DC should be able field a very good defense.

 

I'm really more concerned with the Bills OC, and last seasons hurry up and punt offense ...that Hackett clearly wants to run as fast as possible again this year. I can only hope that he learned the difference between just handing the ball off for a run up the middle and developing a proper run scheme that will actually move the chains. The Bills offense needs to find a way to stay on the field as long as they can, rather then three downs and out which will wear out their own defense by the 4th quarter.

 

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to see what Schwartz / Hackett will do with the team this year. More specifically what Hackett will do to get the ball into Sammy's hands. In any event this years coaching staff will need to deliver a winning team, and if they don't then new ownership will certainly want to make changes.

[C.Biscuit97]

Some people I have no idea what they are talking about. 2 players make up the wide 9. Yes, Schwartz got a head coaching job because he was a crappy DC. Makes a ton of sense.

 

Wanny was out of the NFL for like 10 years when he became our DC. Schwartz coached against the division we play 4 games against for the last 4 years.

 

Pettine did a really good job here (our run D still sucked but whatever). But this D is loaded with 1st and 2nd rounders and a 5th rounder who has multiple pro bowls. It's insanely talented. It's a great situation. If Schwartz doesn't have this D ranked in the top 10, he failed. But some of you severely overrated Pettine. Wanny was god awful with a very talented roster. Pettine simply made good use of very good talent.

[You herd it hear last]

Some people I have no idea what they are talking about. 2 players make up the wide 9. Yes, Schwartz got a head coaching job because he was a crappy DC. Makes a ton of sense.

 

Wanny was out of the NFL for like 10 years when he became our DC. Schwartz coached against the division we play 4 games against for the last 4 years.

 

Pettine did a really good job here (our run D still sucked but whatever). But this D is loaded with 1st and 2nd rounders and a 5th rounder who has multiple pro bowls. It's insanely talented. It's a great situation. If Schwartz doesn't have this D ranked in the top 10, he failed. But some of you severely overrated Pettine. Wanny was god awful with a very talented roster. Pettine simply made good use of very good talent.

 

and they have Jerry Hughes

Edited July 25, 2014 by You herd it hear last

[OCinBuffalo]

FYI - this guy is the all-22 guru. I usually add any Detroit-related D stuff to the latest Schwartz post...

 

Rich Fann II ‏@RDotDeuce 4m

Perhaps Bills too RT @JamesALight Detroit #Lions Gap Exchange Stunt: http://wp.me/p2V0ns-1Bo.... http://twitter.com/J....com/ZsiwYMl844

The above is required reading for all further participation in this thread.

 

With merely mucking around with 2 guys, you can create all sorts of havoc on run plays. If that's the Wide 9? Then stressing over it is silly. It's just an alignment tweak, and in the above, a stunt off that tweak.

 

The "trick" is to have the 2 guys, and, can they be coached? We have the 2 guys, on both sides of the D, who can be coached. All we need is execution, from both players and coaches.

 

Remember: it's not like we are the Redskins, hiring incompatible players and coaches, every year/other year.

[3rdand12]

Sal's article on WGR gives a very good explanation of the scheme: http://www.wgr550.co...-drive/19508975

 

But this is what really scares me:

 

It’s also why the Bills so desperately need Marcell Dareus to stay on the field and play at a Pro Bowl level. In many defensive schemes, there are more players committed to helping each other flush out the ball carrier. Not so much this one. This scheme relies heavily on those middle-of-the-defense defenders to make plays in space and often by themselves. If one gets beaten, huge chunks of yardage are at risk.

 

Two thoughts: 1) Anything that is dependent upon Marcell Dareus right now is a total crap shoot. And 2) Yes, we added Spikes, but our interior run defense has been very porous for the last few seasons, and it appears to me this strategy feeds into our greatest weakness.

 

Moreover, I have never liked the idea of spreading the lineman so wide, remember a few years ago the Eagles scrapped this system in mid-season because they couldn't stop the run.

 

Our weakness has been run defense, and this system makes any team more vulnerable to getting run over.

 

Well, I hope I'm TOTALLY wrong, but I just have a bad feeling. Any help ???

Dear sir. I understand your concerns . I had them too. early on.

But i have come to a more positive way of thinking after reading Shwartzes quotes since becoming the Bills DC.

More importantly i I feel the good folks here on the board have given all of us a better understanding of what may be coming and abit of confidence in this fellow.

Go Jim !